40 replies to this topic

[Toothless]

Khobai, on 27 March 2018 - 06:25 AM, said:

making water act like water is absurd because there would absolutely be noreason to go into water if it slowed your mech down to a crawl.

you would just be further decreasing the playable area of already small maps. smaller playable areas on maps benefits NO ONE.

bad idea is bad.

besides it seems kindve disingenuous to pick on water as violating the laws of physics when so many other things in MWO violate physics too. the game obviously takes place in a parallel dimension with different laws of physics where water is less dense.

No you're right, having an actual use for jump jets to traverse water quicker and thus garner an advantage (River city, for example) would be bad.

And 'disingenuous'? So we get gravity that causes mech damage, heated lava that causes more heat, and slopes that slow down mechs, muffled weapon sounds in space environments but yea something as simple as water acting like water is disingenuous.

[Khobai]

Quote

No you're right, having an actual use for jump jets to traverse water quicker and thus garner an advantage (River city, for example) would be bad.

jumpjets dont work in water in battletech, so that would have to be changed too... oh wait that would also be dumb.

the point being... some battletech rules are deliberately ignored in MWO because they would be stupid.

water doesnt slow mechs down because it would be absolutely ridiculous on maps like river city.

Quote

And 'disingenuous'? So we get gravity that causes mech damage, heated lava that causes more heat, and slopes that slow down mechs, muffled weapon sounds in space environments but yea something as simple as water acting like water is disingenuous.

like I said, MWO exists in a parallel universe with different physical laws.

Edited by Khobai, 27 March 2018 - 08:11 AM.

[DrCyanide]

This would ruin River City, requiring the map to be heavily modified. A significant speed reduction in water would effectively turn that map into a WW1 simulator, where both sides hide in their trenches not wanting to move and gun down anyone who tries to go over the edge. Bridges become worse than any other choke point in this scenario, since you can attack anyone crossing from all sides.

Other than that map, I don't see a very good reason not to apply some sort of % slow to anyone crossing water.

[Villainy]

I read this and legit thought you were referring to electric resistance and that some new Super heavy/dense form of water had been somehow chemically/atomically created, and was some form of insulator.
Now I am sad.

But nah. Run in water up to your shins at full speed. It doesn't hinder you nearly as much as your supposing. But just because we're bipedal doesn't make humans a very good example. Engines and endo steel don't react the same way muscles and flesh do. It'd be neat, and slightly more immersive, maybe, but overall I don't see something like that being such an big deal. Most walls and buildings don't really provide much resistance to mechs.

[Rhialto]

I found this post in 2014 referring to an even older post I can't find so yeah, this was reported like 5 years ago already...

[JediPanther]

The only good thing about water was the beef's underwater locust video. Sadly pgi has changed the water and map boundries so you can't have that bit of fun any more. More water in levels up to most mechs' waist would be fun or around a series of lakes and lagoons. But if you really want to have fun in water get some of the silent hunter series. Wolves of the Pacific and 5 are really fun and can be mod-ed.

[KodiakGW]

Toothless, on 27 March 2018 - 03:29 AM, said:

Unsure of what game you are playing. There are no puddles. Crimson city, river city, forest colony...these clearly show water deep enough to immerse lights legs...

Actually, I do believe the Locust is almost completely under water in many parts. Yet it can still run at top speed.

Must be the magnetohydrodynamic "caterpillar" drive in it. "One ping only."

Edit: Just saw prior post. So I guess they changed the depth?

Edited by KodiakGW, 27 March 2018 - 09:47 AM.

[TLBFestus]

Bombast, on 27 March 2018 - 03:46 AM, said:

But destructible trees add nothing but frustration as they eat AC/20 shells.

Am I wrong or didn't the non-destructible trees eat those too?

I just hate them because they are stupid, make the same repetitively annoying sound EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY GO DOWN, and PGI was actually paying a guy to go around the dump tree after tree after FRIKIN' TREE all over the maps.

[Brain Cancer]

Water in Battletech is actually a terribly good double-edged sword.

Unarmored sections fail if immersed (because delicate bits do poorly when flooded, like that engine housing). It cuts speed by a respectable amount, because bipedal forms are not hydrodynamic and seriously, you try wading through water that's hip deep at full speed. Even if you're a giant robot, physics apply. It's awkward.

You don't need piloting rolls to enter water or even run in it, but jump jets auto-cut out if immersed, so it's more a matter of cutting off your jets and dropping in.

On the other hand, it can help you keep cool and blocks shots that would hit the covered sections, meaning your legs. In MWO, it actually does all that.

There's really no water in MWO that goes deeper than level 1 (or maybe level "1.2" or so since Submarine Locust) so most of it's moot points. Except all that invulnerable terrain. Daddy really needs to level some buildings and torch some trees, please.

[Vanguard319]

Seeing as I live in a shore town with many beaches, I can say with certainty that when you sprint knee deep into the ocean, you feel a significant amount of resistance, enough to trip you if you aren't careful, (especially if you hit a wave of significant strength.) Once you're waist deep, you are pretty much reduced to a slow walk.

There is no logical explanation why a battlemech can move through a fluid as easily as air.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Water ?...Engine Limits seeing MWLL with a older cry

[Mechwarrior1441491]

it would further create theme park approaches.

Meh.

[Manored]

Comparing humans in water to mechs in water is silly, mechs are much stronger, much denser, and have a much larger mass in relation to their surface area. I personally have no idea if such beasts would be slowed down in water at all. In fact, is the main limiter of their speed even air resistance? To me it looks like the main limiters for mech speed would be how quickly they can move their legs and how much mechanical stress they can take, not air resistance.

[Yosharian]

Toothless, on 27 March 2018 - 03:12 AM, said:

You guys knew it was overdue for another one of these.

Water. For some reason, PGI has put it all over the place in their maps. Water is pretty and I guess its easier to fill an area with water than detail it with terrain and materials.

So after 5+ years, we can run our mech packs mechs full speed into a lake and...feel zero effect. You dont slow down, you dont lose mobility.

We already have this in game, when you get legged you get slow/sluggish, when you lose a clan torso a somewhat similar effect. But water not affecting your mech is completely bizarre, and I guess the playerbase has just kind of grown accustomed to the silliness.

You can give a "well with so many other issues why is this important" response, thats cool if you want to. I feel lazy and complacent sometimes too. But I feel that since water is such a fundamental part of PGI's map designs that it should, you know, do something. Lava heats you up, right? MWO players HATE hot things, oh man. Hot maps are the worst! So use that selective hate and fuel it towards the inadequacies of water as well. They can make lava do something but not water! Let the biased hate run through you.

What you're trying to do is make MWO more sim-like, but MWO has long since abandoned simulation as a goal.

[LordNothing]

i remember a map on gbl(?) that was underwater. had torpedpes, and everything. mwll has good underwater fighting on several maps. mwo has ankle deep water that serves no purpose other than a placeholder for where terrain would normally go.

generally pgi doesnt understand how ground works. the ground either has so much detail that you cant walk on it without getting hung up on a hitbox, while others have placeholders of very simple ground or water. all those covered walkways and elevated platforms on river city that die in a fire, those rocks on vitric forge.its like they just imported stuff from other games and said good enough. you know what all the other mechwarrior games didnt have, excessive ground clutter. mechs could be mechs. learn how ground works!

Edited by LordNothing, 27 March 2018 - 07:17 PM.

[LordNothing]

Bud Crue, on 27 March 2018 - 04:06 AM, said:

If I could burn the trees on Forest, or cut them down via a chainsaw of bullets with a RAC5, I would probably vote for that map everytime.

thing i dont like about trees is they dont interact very well with the things in the game. you can knock them over with some weapons or your mech, its always the same tree and the same fall over animation. id like it where if you fire an ac20 through the trees it would cut a swath of destruction out of the forest leaving a burning line in its wake. if one tree catches fire, like with a flamer, it would ignite adjacent trees and cause a temporary heat hazzard for your mech. they dont even mask sensor data, just block vision and turns the game into a place reticle in box and pray there isnt something in the way. needs to be more map interactions, other than static heat hazzards (which are not used enough imho) and static ground clutter. those walls on incursion should be everywhere but with more hitpoints, gives players the options of blasting through a shortcut or going the long way.

more ways pgi gimps themselves by marginalizing every potentially interesting gameplay mechanic.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 March 2018 - 07:27 PM.

[Gaussfather]

Manored, on 27 March 2018 - 06:34 PM, said:

Comparing humans in water to mechs in water is silly, mechs are much stronger, much denser, and have a much larger mass in relation to their surface area. I personally have no idea if such beasts would be slowed down in water at all. In fact, is the main limiter of their speed even air resistance? To me it looks like the main limiters for mech speed would be how quickly they can move their legs and how much mechanical stress they can take, not air resistance.

Water is 784 times more dense than air. There are 2 main types of aerodynamic/hydrodynamic drag: 1) skin friction drag, and 2) pressure drag (a third one related to pressure drag on a wing/foil is called induced drag).

On a large round/cylindrical body (like a leg cross section) pressure drag will dominate. Pressure drag is a function of density and skin friction drag a function of viscosity and density.

Fun experiment if you have a pool and old bowling balls: drop a smooth one and then one that is roughened up surface. Rough bowling ball will fall faster due to boundary layer flow staying attached longer to the back of the bowling ball, which in turn lowers pressure drag -- even though skin friction drag will be higher.

Bottom line, if the Mech cannot clear its feet from the water its going to be slowed down by water, its just physics. The stress on the structure would probably be enough to damage it if was moving full speed THROUGH water. Its not just the density, but the fact that as acceleration increases the drag forces increase by the square. Thats why we cannot move our arm through water as fast as in air. Sure a mech is more powerful but it would have to also be able to handle the massive increases in stress...

Anyway enough armchair physics for today. I say let water effect movement - wouldn't that be a cool way to mitigate faster mechs in places like the swamp etc... force them to follow you into the water. It would liven up game play in my opinion.

[Toothless]

^ This guy

Yosharian, on 27 March 2018 - 07:15 PM, said:

What you're trying to do is make MWO more sim-like, but MWO has long since abandoned simulation as a goal.

In no way am I saying that. Im saying water acts like water in virtually any game you encounter, new or old, for a long while. The fact that its not treated as such in MWO makes it feel like its an alpha left over, like they literally put water down in the alpha/beta era and said "we gotta get this done" and then Paul lost the sticky note on his computer monitor reminding him that 'Hey we havent finished the water functionality", along with the LBX cluster/slug coding.

Edited by Toothless, 28 March 2018 - 01:08 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 28 March 2018 - 02:14 AM.

[LordNothing]

games really just use a bounding box for water and simply apply different physics code when you are in the box. this game simply doesn't do that.