42 replies to this topic

[Grus]

#notsurprised to see this post though.

[ScreamingSkull]

Koniving, on 14 April 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

Just quoted it. Picture from the book. Just in case if you missed it.


Anything else?

I'll grant that your post wasn't entirely gibberish, but that book is from 1991 bro... **** was revised.

[Sigmar Sich]

kuma8877, on 14 April 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

Maybe players will start to do this on their own... putting on a better show that is.

Oh, i wish so. Though somehow i believe "victory by any means alphas necessary" is more popular idea here.
I'm actually curious how Solaris will turn out. Let's hope for the best.

[Koniving]

Sigmar Sich, on 14 April 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

Mechs should destroy each other in Solaris, that's fine.
But one thing always puzzled me. As much as duels can be fun, they are too quick. Good gladiators were not only winners, putting a show mattered too. If you kill your opponents fast, it's not really fun for crowd.
But was fight a good show?, sure would be tough thing to program.
Reducing weapon damage is interesting idea. Would need its own balance though, problematic.
Anyway, i think it'll get old soon enough, if fight takes less time than loading and waiting for start...

P.S. Maybe observers should vote for bonuses? Exploitable though... Maybe votes only for random observers.

That's why a lot of Solaris's rules are different.

Though actually a lot of it has to do with a change in time scale, instead of 10 second time slices as shown above, they are 2.5 second time slices.

As such you're not allowed to fire all your weapons in a turn, a thing emphasized by the 4 times heat. They did this INSTEAD of reducing maximum heat down by a division of 4 (30 to 7.5). This keeps them from having to divide the heatsinks by 4 which would have been a royal pain. Plus some weapons, which are still "summarized" like AC/20s, would basically make walking and firing the AC/20 enough heat to shut down by if they did a divide by 4 like they did with the time slice, so they times by four instead to get the same result without the issues.

Still, this means 3 large lasers which would be 80% out of 100% (24 out of 30) in Battletech before cooling, would be 96 out of 120 or 80% out of 100%. But only 2.5 seconds worth of cooling against it instead of 10 seconds, so the end result of 10 DHS would be 76 out of 120 or 63.33% heat where in tabletop it would have been 4 out of 30 or 13.33% left.

If you take that 96 out of 120 and instead cool 4 turns worth of 20, you'd get 16 out of 120, or 13.33% left over heat.

So effectively the weapon heat didn't change, but it did.
All to make it so that you can't alpha strike.

There's a big emphasis on firing only a few weapons at a time.
Thus our Solaris matches.





I confess I sucked in this one.

Anyway...
The heat scale.

ScreamingSkull, on 14 April 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

I'll grant that your post wasn't entirely gibberish, but that book is from 1991 bro... **** was revised.

The revise wasn't changed, however.
It's still the same scale (as I demonstrate in the post above.)

[Koniving]

Side note I didn't realize this until just now, but Lordred had his Atlas painted similar to Kraken, in 2014.

[Koniving]

ScreamingSkull, on 14 April 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

I'll grant that your post wasn't entirely gibberish, but that book is from 1991 bro... **** was revised.

Welp, I got the 1999 book, too.

I see there's a 2007 version called Mechwarrior Solaris VII boxed set.
Found the PDF.
https://tesera.ru/im...vii_2_rules.pdf
It's not even remotely compatible with the tabletop game. Apparently, you use cards.
And clix?

I quote
Fire

A Mech may choose to Fire for 2 action

points. A Mech that Fires for that action,

performs a normal rang

ed combat attack.

It also takes 1 click of heat."



So yeah. They CHANGED THE HEAT SYSTEM!

And damages... and weapons...and...everything.



So yeah they changed it all. This isn't even a normal Battletech game, it's virtually a trading card game with miniatures and luck of the draw.

https://boardgamegee...ior-solaris-vii





If we base MWO's Solaris on this, better stock up your trading cards; you're gonna be playing "Mechwarrior Tactics."


Total Biscuit versus Angry Joe in Mechwarrior Tactics, showcasing the card packs, etc.

So lets focus on the Solaris VII invented for Battletech, not the simplified "lets bring in the grandkids" version.

Edited by Koniving, 14 April 2018 - 02:32 PM.

[sycocys]

1047 Games announced that Wormhole Wars has a brand new mode currently in the works called T-Bag Confirmed. It's like the Kill Confirmed mode from Call of Duty, only this time around you can only confirm the kill by tea-bagging your opponent, bobbing up and down by slamming your junk in their face.


-- Just saying.

Edited by sycocys, 14 April 2018 - 02:40 PM.

[Koniving]

Okay, reading the 1999 version, "A Mechwarrior's Guide to Solaris VII", bridges the ruleset to fit with standard battletech rules without the micromanagement.

As such the heat capacity is again LOCKED at 30 heat with shutdown risks at 14, 18, 22, 26, and 30.
That's shutdown chances at 48.667% heat, 60% heat, 73.33% heat, 86.667% heat and 100% heat.

Keep in mind that as with Battletech, Solaris and so on, the chances to shut down are attempts to "CATCH" the pilot that's firing his weapons sloppy. It isn't saying you're firing all the weapons at once, but if you fire them too close together you build up heat faster than you're cooling in the 10 second time slice. As such, you overheat and shut down.

A breakdown of a Warhawk firing 4 ER PPCs shows it can be done, but if you fire them too close together, or even two at once, you hit 30 heat and shut down. That's what the "Chance" of shutting down is trying to catch, with if you shut down at this level of heat (such as 14 out of 30 or 48.667%), it isn't saying you shut down at 48.667% heat but you got damn close or pass 100% heat, and that's just where you are after the shutdown... because you fired too quickly, too close together, you came close to a "True Alpha Strike", something Solaris VII of old went far out of its way to say "You never alpha strike unless it's really desperate."

So I grant that 1999 basically normalized the rules to standard TT as far as I can tell.

Truth be told... It doesn't really contain real rules, it just repeats standard BT rules without giving the specifics on heat generated. When it does give specifics, its on handheld weapons and character skills. But such is to be expected.

There is a bit of a preface, saying that this guide is compatible with standard and advanced Battletech rules, as well as the Solaris VII boxed set (1991).

Which explains the lack of mention of time scale. If you use the Solaris VII rules, the shutdown risks, explosion risks, etc. are just at their *4 positions.

[Koniving]

So I went through 5 different Solaris VII books.
Sadly most of Solaris VII... isn't the arena battles, but the stuff that happens in between them. Encounters in malls. Dealing with tourists. Gangs hired by companies to get rid of players outside of the arena. Petty rivalries between established hotshots and aspiring upstarts that manage to beat them. Bar fights, claims of rigged matches, sabotaged equipment, traps laid out in the Arena...

Now admittedly, some of the Arena stuff is pretty cool. Moving walls. Obstacles that raise and vanish. Holographic distractions deployed by the arena contestants. Combined arms combat between vehicles, infantry and mechs on occasion (typically unless the match is specifically about infantry, the only boots on the ground will be pilots leaving their machines and attacks on their person while the referee is paid to "look away" or be distracted. That's of course not including the fact that camera men are on the ground with cameras filming the action by RUNNING IN BETWEEN THE MECHS... (there's pages of artwork depicting this, including a Marauder kick with two camera men getting in close to film the devastating hit).

There's an underwater arena.

There's the Mud Pit, where any attempt to run tends to lead to mechs falling over. Vibrabombs are set in the muck and hidden, so that traversing the pit is dangerous. No obstacles, just open places to fire. Big wide open fields. This isn't a big issue considering how infrequently one can fire. But between the muck are a few water pools, standing in one doesn't allow for much better movement, but doing so could allow a mech to cool somewhat faster, allowing them to use their weapons more frequently.

"The typical short range slug fest in the pit usually lasts only a matter of minutes. Arena staff use heavy cranes to remove mechs from the pit after matches." Combat lasting MINUTES, in open area, obstacle free, firing free for alls against 1 to 1 and 2 to 2 combat in which the mechs are FORCED to walk and navigate around land mines. Mechs cannot jump, all movement costs twice their normal MP in the mud (though water at a depth of 0 costs normal MP).

o.O;
So that outta tell you how dragged out the fights can be. Distance across the Mud Pitt is only 200 meters from end to end.


A Xolara battlemap called "King of the Mountain" requires that mechs physically climb walls King Kong style. Upon falling, they have to get back up and climb again. Attacking the unit climbing is not permitted until they plant two feet upon the same level you're on. Up to 6 Vibrabombs are buried in random locations before each match. The number can be anything from 1 to 6.

Mechs can choose to fight on a given level or climb to the next one, each level has progressively less room to manuever and is progressively narrow, restricting the ability to dodge with each progressive height. If a mech is climbing to a higher level, a pilot is allowed to attack it to prevent the climb. (You attack those going above you and above you if you can see them (which it goes out of its way to say unless they're on the edge, you generally can't) but you cannot attack those from below you until they climb to your level and not until they get up).

Hell this one's probably the coolest one so far. Pilots start out in a 12 meter deep (depth 2) moat, so most mechs are underwater before they climb to the first level. This slows their approach and gives an edge to lighter mechs. Once heavier mechs are up on the ridges, though, they're the ones with the advantages especially on higher levels as they can throw their weight around physically to sling smaller mechs down the cliffs. Mechs that are damaged or caught off balance usually slide down multiple ridges.

There are some other cool ones like Hartford Gardens which is basically a corner checking maze. Place is subject to a lawsuit after a stray missile killed 2 spectators and injured another 5. But nothing particularly unique here.

(Edit: I missed something pretty neat about Hartford Gardens)
Matches here are generally "Cat and Mouse," as the Solaris VII book describes it. It has both Vibra bombs (as apparently all arenas do) as well as hidden single shot "weapon silos" that pop out and shoot any mechs nearby. These traps are often discovered too late to matter. Their placement is random, though it seems like sometimes their locations can be leaked to players to help rig matches.

There's a quicksand pit, placed at random. It is 6 meters deep, and can trap a unit for 2.5 seconds, which extends each time they fail a piloting roll for making their way out. It isn't deep enough to swallow a mech, but it can really impede someone. The quicksand pit isn't made obvious as a hologram hides its location until it is entered.
(End Edit)

In general they are all death matches with a twist, however. First one to remain on top of King of the Mountain for 30 seconds (12 turns) without being thrown off is declared the winner OR the last one standing is declared the winner. So there's our first start.
Arena specific game modes, each different according to the map.
For the most part though each map seems to provide some "modifiers" or as Unreal Tournament would call them, "Mutators.." Basically a 'twist' to the basic combat formula that changes something up. Lower than normal gravity. King of the Mountain. Mud Pits. Corner-checking mazes. Dynamically changing environments. You know, ACTUAL cool **** that makes death match fun.

Edited by Koniving, 14 April 2018 - 05:29 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Bombast, on 14 April 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

No.



Small maps should solve most of those issues.

Probably the only 'secondary' objective I can think of that makes sense would be some sort of "Thrill" metric where entertaining the 'crowd' rewards a player regardless of how the actual match turns out. But that would be a reward system, not a way to win, and I wouldn't even know where to begin when it comes to designing a system to track that sort of thing, or what it should track.

Interesting idea. Perhaps give spectators an option to grant additional rewards to players they enjoy watching. Or even have an automated system that grants bonuses to both players in exceptionally close matches.

[PocketYoda]

Grus, on 14 April 2018 - 12:03 PM, said:

Damn guys, just slam the kid, wow.

And they wonder why the population slowly decreases...

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Solaris VII should give you points for being flashy. The more damage you deal, the more components you destroy, the more Accolades you earn, whether you win or lose. The same for damage received and components lost. The longer and more brutal the fight, the higher your Accolades.

[Koniving]

Deathlike, on 14 April 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

What game did you think you were playing when you thought of Solaris?

See the above post of mine where I gave a little on the Solaris arenas looking for some secondary objectives.

Bit better than "Incursion"?

[Mcgral18]

Samial, on 14 April 2018 - 04:28 PM, said:

And they wonder why the population slowly decreases...

Because the game is forcing terrible game modes to be played, without the option to avoid them


Correction, Solaris will let you avoid them
I might play more Solaris, then.

[BrunoSSace]

Small quick games. Lasting just minutes. Might take you longer to load in, then complete the match. Designed for the good players, to walk all over the average pug, who will then complain that they mechs are underpowered and need love.

I don't see the problem here. If people can't win, they will not play and will probably play what is deemed the most OP mech for that tier and still loss. Happens in all other games.

[Alan Hicks]

I don't care that much about Solaris, meh, whatever. I will keep only with FP and QP.

[evilauthor]

Koniving, on 14 April 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

Just quoted it. Picture from the book. Just in case if you missed it.


Also, time scale.

Anything else?

These are awesome. Both because they serve as a good basis for building a real time mech simulator around, and because it provides some insight into how mechs "really" fight in the BT universe.

Sadly, the Solaris 7 rules are no longer "canon" to the main TT game. Because if they were, the vanilla AC2 and AC5 wouldn't be useless pieces of crap. Look at the "Delay" stats for those weapons. The AC/5 has double the fire rate of the PPC. The AC/2 can fire FOUR times as fast. If they had these rates of fire in the TT game, the AC/5 could be fired twice every 10 second turn and the AC/2 could be fired four times, making them decent weapons for their tonnage.

But the real problem with making S7 rules canon to TT gameplay is that the weapons with a Delay of "2" don't map evenly to 10 second turns. In MWO terms, their "cooldown" is 7.5 seconds, so they could fire twice in a 10 second turn, but not in the following turn, which is a lot more book keeping than the TT game rules like.

Real time simulators like MWO of course don't have that problem. I've long felt that MWO could better simulate "real" Battletech combat simply by reducing the heat cap on all mechs to be around TT's 30 heat (adjusted for skills and quirks of course), unnerf the heat sinks, both of which would practically force players to chain fire their weapons because of how easy it would be to go into overheat if we group fired everything like we do now.

[Old-dirty B]

Alright guys i get it Solaris is supposed to be “just” a deatmatch / gladiator arena.

I’m not much aware of the lore of Mechwarrior, to me its a way to fix my addiction to play Mech based shooters that i got from playing Chromehounds. Damn i miss that game...

Anyway, Solaris reminded me of all the 1v1’s i played in Chromehounds. In general it was basically the same as the 6v6 games played on the same maps and default game mode. These 1v1’s were mostly played as a regular deatmatch but there were two other ways to win and which you had to keep an eye on. These alternatives brought alot of strategy and depth to the gameplay. It could be used to force a fight on to your opponent when and where you wanted. You could even avoid any fight and still win, altough that was frown upon and generally only used when you had no other anwser to your opponents winning strategy forcing him next round to use a more ballanced approach. The solo games were very intense games and quite demanding as you were actually playing multiple games at the same time, pretty much skirmish, assault and conquest at once. Not only combat skills but also other skills like map control, situational awareness and strategy were needed to be succesfull.

I hope Solaris will offer the same level of entertainment to you guys as i got from my 1v1’s in Chromehounds. I will surely try it out but i doubt it will keep me going in the long run - the gameplay that plain deathmatch offers sounds to shallow for me...

Edited by B3R3ND, 14 April 2018 - 10:49 PM.

[JC Daxion]

B3R3ND, on 14 April 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

I’m dissapointed in the Solaris game mode setup being just a plain deatmatch. I believe there should be at least one other way to win then to destroy your oppenent. Just deatmatch doesnt allow for any depth in gameplay - besides skill there smart tactics should also be rewarded. If only as a way to root out your opponent who is just hiding and evading after getting critically damaged and playing for a tie.

Im sure a simple deatmatch as it appears to be will get old pretty quick.

Anyone else feels the same way or is a simple deatmatch all that is needed?

Like what? If it is movement base any fast mech could simply win. Solaris is mech on mech carnage, what more do you need?

[Old-dirty B]

JC Daxion, on 15 April 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

Solaris is mech on mech carnage, what more do you need?

Well, its kinda explained in y previous post (the one just above yours).

As i already mentioned, i'm not really looking forward to another deathmatch, any other game mode we now have plays out as such.

JC Daxion, on 15 April 2018 - 03:15 AM, said:

Like what? If it is movement base any fast mech could simply win.

The 1v1 games we had in Chromehounds never favored any specialist mech (scout, sniper etc) too well, although with the right strategy you could win with one nevertheless. In general an allround mech, decent speed, firepower and armor suits this gameplay the best.

Anyway, you could win by destroying your opponent (like skirmish), by destroying/capping your opponents base (like assault), or by outcapping (like conquest or scouting) your opponent on time out. The interesting part of all this is to read this situation the best as possible and adapt your strategy accordingly and outplaying your opponent by forcing him in a certain direction.

Anyway, not saying Solaris or MWO should be like Chromehounds, but to me it would interesting if there would be more options in that arena or mode to use smart tactics rather then only aiming skills. Like a king of the hill zone that can be held for x ammount of time to win, forcing your opponent to engage you. Or two zones either end that can be capped, or i don't know - perhaps a dropship that needs to be protected / attacked. At least something that can be used to keep someone away or draw someone in to make the most of your weaponry and playstyle. If it's merely a surgical high precising close range dissection of your opponent it will soon get old, at least to me. I would like more options...