26 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

I was rewatching that video, and it pretty much made me realize that there's really only 1 way to fight.

Dropships.

I get why you don't hover one dropship over a city and obliterate everything. Cause, if you accidentally lose one, that's like a trillion space dollars gone bye bye.

But jeez... like the MW4 video, why even allow them the time to activate hangers? Why not drop ON the hangers? I mean, what's literally there to stop them? The same logic technically applies to every combat scenario. Just force drop onto every single combat zone before the enemy can react, and game over.

I mean, why do this "let's drop 20 miles outside of the cities and approach menacingly on radar" stuff? Fly over the city, unload in like 5 seconds, and instant win without retaliation.

In fact, in all of the MWO FP siege games, same concept applies. You have 12 mech defenders, but you can't possibly be in them the whole time. So I just drop 2 here, 2 there, 4 there, 3 at the objective. 1 Minute flyby, entire base conquered.

I also refer you to the MW5 announcement video, why have this weird sequence where you run in and out from a dropship to attack a base 5 minutes away? Why not land AT the base?

In fact, if all you are blowing up is that one building, why not do a flyby gauss cannon? Saves the landing fuel cost all together. Like literally they could open the side door, use computer to calculate telemetry, and alpha 4 mechs on the side. It's the literal future version of a gunship.

BOOM, objective complete. No silly trotting a 55 ton mech to then have to run away from enemy dropship.

(and how is it possible that you run away in an Atlas, and if you are a reinforcement with intel that ONE atlas is wrecking your base and running away, why would you not do your own flyby next to the atlas, drop like 5 mechs directly ontop... apprehend the convict, then blow up the convict's dropship? Literally... WHY LAND 3 MILES AWAY TO CHASE SOMEONE DOWN??)

Like the whole concept of dropships is just the most OP thing ever. Everything else can be explained away (rule of war to not orbit bomb a planet, limited range to shoot from space, space dollar and advance defensive system to use dumb missiles with shorter range... etc etc. But the mobility issue, that's just one thing that always bugged me about BTech)

[FupDup]

I guess maybe there could be some super-powerful anti-air defenses, so the point of dropping mechs away from the actual objective would be to ensure the dropship doesn't get shot down. However, then that would beg the question of why they don't just aim those same cannons at ground forces...

[Prototelis]

You're questioning the realism of a B-level sci fi franchise wherein the most powerful weapons of war are also completely impractical.

Oh wait this isn't the Jedi Knight boards... it isn't 1997 anymore. Dammit...

[Brain Cancer]

There's a sketch by Alex/Flyingdebris (our God Of Robot Art in MWO) showing an Overlord crashing in flames.

A redneck with a rifle is going "I GOT HIM PIGGEH!"

The answer is that a Dropship is about as stealthy as you'd expect a giant flaming brick to be. And as easy to hit. You don't want to risk incoming fire or even being near it, as one bad hit and your ride home is now a giant bomb hitting the ground, hopefully without you under or in it at the time.

And infantry with some missile launchers are a LOT more stealthy than your Dropship. You want a place far enough away to get your cargo off safely, and if you're on the ground, your Dropship at least is now a fortress that can defend itself without worrying about crashing (but again, you hope a sortie doesn't get past it's defenses or your ride is toast/captured/worse).

Thus, you find a safe LZ, use it, and send in the clowns giant robots.

[MechaBattler]

Prototelis, on 12 April 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

You're questioning the realism of a B-level sci fi franchise wherein the most powerful weapons of war are also completely impractical.

Oh wait this isn't the Jedi Knight boards... it isn't 1997 anymore. Dammit...

It's called being a nerd. Being passionate and critical about the details of a franchise are what nerds do.

[FupDup]

MechaBattler, on 12 April 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

It's called being a nerd. Being passionate and critical about the details of a franchise are what nerds do.

[MechaBattler]

[Kanil]

Dropships don't inherently defy gravity on their own, and don't really react well to incoming fire -- a 'mech without an arm can still fight, and a 'mech without a leg can still be salvaged, a Leopard without a wing is a crater.

[razenWing]

Brain Cancer, on 12 April 2018 - 05:54 PM, said:

There's a sketch by Alex/Flyingdebris (our God Of Robot Art in MWO) showing an Overlord crashing in flames.

A redneck with a rifle is going "I GOT HIM PIGGEH!"

The answer is that a Dropship is about as stealthy as you'd expect a giant flaming brick to be. And as easy to hit. You don't want to risk incoming fire or even being near it, as one bad hit and your ride home is now a giant bomb hitting the ground, hopefully without you under or in it at the time.

And infantry with some missile launchers are a LOT more stealthy than your Dropship. You want a place far enough away to get your cargo off safely, and if you're on the ground, your Dropship at least is now a fortress that can defend itself without worrying about crashing (but again, you hope a sortie doesn't get past it's defenses or your ride is toast/captured/worse).

Thus, you find a safe LZ, use it, and send in the clowns giant robots.

I kinda thought about that, but if that was true, then you have to drop literally hundreds of miles away. I say that because in MW3, Clan naval lasers brought down 2 dropships while they were in orbit. The only way to counter those, is use the literal spherical nature of a planet and drop on the other side where there are no lasers.

But if that's the case, then we are talking about only legit tactics being orbital bombardment to limit losses.

(actually, if you kind of think about it, MW3 setup is a lot more real where the only way to get off the planet is to blow up all naval lasers along the way...)

My point is, if anti-air lasers are that potent, then dropping 3 miles outside of mission zone isn't going to save anyone. (unless your dropship literally fly as low as an attack helicopter for 100 miles of infiltration, which... the lower to the planet's surface, the more energy it requires to hover.)

I guess I am just saying, if you are in a situation where you are able to drop 3 miles outside the city, the you are in the same position to drop directly ON the city.

Besides, the MWO dropships are fairly OP. They really need to be nerfed in scouting.

Edited by razenWing, 12 April 2018 - 07:21 PM.

[Kanil]

razenWing, on 12 April 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

I guess I am just saying, if you are in a situation where you are able to drop 3 miles outside the city, the you are in the same position to drop directly ON the city.

If the city is defended by 'mechs, but not any naval scale weaponry, then dropping 3 miles outside means you're out of 'mech weapon ranges... dropping directly on the city means you're not.

[FupDup]

Kanil, on 12 April 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

If the city is defended by 'mechs, but not any naval scale weaponry, then dropping 3 miles outside means you're out of 'mech weapon ranges... dropping directly on the city means you're not.

If you're out of enemy weapon ranges, the enemy is out of your range too (gonna have to move in anyways).

Plus, if you're dropping straight into the city then I imagine you'd be fully decked out with brawler loadouts while the city garrison might be using mixed builds or something (which would lose in a straight up brawl).

Edited by FupDup, 12 April 2018 - 08:38 PM.

[fat4eyes]

Because dropping in the middle of enemy territory with no path for supplies and reinforcements is still suicidal. Sure you may take the objective, but then you wouldn't be able to hold it for long.

[Vellron2005]

razenWing, on 12 April 2018 - 05:39 PM, said:

I was rewatching that video, and it pretty much made me realize that there's really only 1 way to fight.

Dropships.

I get why you don't hover one dropship over a city and obliterate everything. Cause, if you accidentally lose one, that's like a trillion space dollars gone bye bye.

But jeez... like the MW4 video, why even allow them the time to activate hangers? Why not drop ON the hangers? I mean, what's literally there to stop them? The same logic technically applies to every combat scenario. Just force drop onto every single combat zone before the enemy can react, and game over.

I mean, why do this "let's drop 20 miles outside of the cities and approach menacingly on radar" stuff? Fly over the city, unload in like 5 seconds, and instant win without retaliation.

In fact, in all of the MWO FP siege games, same concept applies. You have 12 mech defenders, but you can't possibly be in them the whole time. So I just drop 2 here, 2 there, 4 there, 3 at the objective. 1 Minute flyby, entire base conquered.

I also refer you to the MW5 announcement video, why have this weird sequence where you run in and out from a dropship to attack a base 5 minutes away? Why not land AT the base?

In fact, if all you are blowing up is that one building, why not do a flyby gauss cannon? Saves the landing fuel cost all together. Like literally they could open the side door, use computer to calculate telemetry, and alpha 4 mechs on the side. It's the literal future version of a gunship.

BOOM, objective complete. No silly trotting a 55 ton mech to then have to run away from enemy dropship.

(and how is it possible that you run away in an Atlas, and if you are a reinforcement with intel that ONE atlas is wrecking your base and running away, why would you not do your own flyby next to the atlas, drop like 5 mechs directly ontop... apprehend the convict, then blow up the convict's dropship? Literally... WHY LAND 3 MILES AWAY TO CHASE SOMEONE DOWN??)

Like the whole concept of dropships is just the most OP thing ever. Everything else can be explained away (rule of war to not orbit bomb a planet, limited range to shoot from space, space dollar and advance defensive system to use dumb missiles with shorter range... etc etc. But the mobility issue, that's just one thing that always bugged me about BTech)

I agree that this game is illogical. On the modern battlefield, a mech would have little to no effective role. BUT.. this game is called "Mechwarrior" not Dropship warrior, flyby attack, or Aerospace fighter..

If we didn't land out mech, we would not get to play them.

Simple as that.

Also, there is such a thing as anti-air defenses. That's why you have to take out the Omega orbital cannons, so you can, in fact, land a dropship in the Planetary commander's back yard and say check-mate {Dezgra}.

Also, in the battletech setting, there is such a thing as hot-dropping mechs.. it uses jump-jet like pods to drop a mech from orbit onto the desired location.

Sadly, PGI has not gone this route yet. Much of the setting is simply gutted in this game, and you don't get to see the reasons for things being as they are, other than the practical game mechanics reasons..

Edited by Vellron2005, 13 April 2018 - 01:33 AM.

[Bombast]

MechaBattler, on 12 April 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

It's called being a nerd. Being passionate and critical about the details of a franchise are what nerds do.

Battletech realism arguments are so beyond 'nerdism' at this point. It's pathetic and bad and frustrating and bad. There's no arguments or points to be made here, and OP knows it - Battletech tactics are dumb. Battletech tech is dumb. The entire universe is constructed of stupid because that's the only way to justify two multi-ton robots swinging tree trucks at each other. Why people feel the need to bring this up every 15 minutes is beyond me.

[Zeoraimer]

Was build drop ships lost tech? or was that only jump ships?

If both were lostech, or was too expensive to risk, then it would make sense NOT to risk them to incoming fire.

But as mentioned above, this is not only a game, but a game that doesn't implement all the mechanics of lore.

[Bombast]

Zeoraimer, on 13 April 2018 - 02:44 AM, said:

Was build drop ships lost tech? or was that only jump ships?

Dropships are not lostech. Jumpships are... strange. They can still technically be made, but no one seems to know how to make jumpship factories anymore. So jumpships aren't lostech, but jumpship factories kind of are (Even though there are still a couple around).

Also, no one alive really knows how Jump Drives work. But apparently that was true during the Star League era as well. Very, very very few people can get their heads around the bizzaro math that jump travel works on.

[Scyther]

As others have said, you can only squeeze so much realism out of BattleTech's basic premise.

That said, Dropships are not Lostech, but they are at the edge of what the Inner Sphere is capable of manufacturing, and are extremely hard to replace. Think of it as similar to RL and Saturn V moon launch rockets... we can make them if we absolutely have to, but the expense, time, and potential for problems mean we will do so only at the greatest need.

As far as 'land in the middle of things', nobody does that now. You don't drop your paratroops directly on an enemy force, you don't land your helicopters on the rooftops of a defended city, you don't do airdrops of tanks and vehicles into the middle of an opponents force to 'save time on marching'.

Since your opponent has warning that you are coming, they are at least potentially prepared to deal with you. When you land forces, they don't all hit the ground rolling, in battle formation, in handily defensive spots. You don't always have perfect intel on what is where.

You pick a landing corridor that is calculated to not risk your dropships; due to blind spots, defenses taken out in advance, terrain feature cover etc. You get your mechs down; which doesn't occur in the 10 seconds of the game (because its a game) but because you are powering up mechs, getting them out a single door etc, takes time. Underdefended time.

Then you assemble your force into squads and units, set up communications, and move out. Actual forces (theoretically) aren't 12 independent strangers each of whom gets to do their own thing. Battles have plans, objectives, timing, coordination, and people whose job it is to keep these things straight. Hot-dropping units into the midst of an active target is a fabulous way to end up with a steaming pile of SNAFU.

Note: this isn't 'BattleTech funky head canon', this is simple military logistics that apply since the Babylonians decided chariots was a good way to get people into battle faster.

Edited by MadBadger, 13 April 2018 - 03:20 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Bombast, on 13 April 2018 - 02:35 AM, said:

Battletech realism arguments are so beyond 'nerdism' at this point. It's pathetic and bad and frustrating and bad. There's no arguments or points to be made here, and OP knows it - Battletech tactics are dumb. Battletech tech is dumb. The entire universe is constructed of stupid because that's the only way to justify two multi-ton robots swinging tree trucks at each other. Why people feel the need to bring this up every 15 minutes is beyond me.

For some of us, half the fun is analyzing details and trying extrapolate some sense of realism from it. Or we could just be ******* Star Wars.

[Bombast]

MechaBattler, on 13 April 2018 - 08:03 AM, said:

For some of us, half the fun is analyzing details and trying extrapolate some sense of realism from it. Or we could just be ******* Star Wars.

As if Star Wars didn't periodically explode into arguments over why teddy bears can beat Stormtroopers to death with rocks but for some reason regular real life fire arms can't penetrate armor made of vinyl siding.

Edited by Bombast, 13 April 2018 - 08:17 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Bombast, on 13 April 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

As if Star Wars didn't periodically explode into arguments over why teddy bears can beat Stormtroopers to death with rocks but for some reason regular real life fire arms can't penetrate armor made of vinyl siding.

The difference is the creators of Battletech made an attempt to mirror real world aspects rather than just be like "Welp, it's scifi!". Like so much nonsensical scifi out there. I swear so many books just smatter on scifi elements, without any thought as to the practical nature of the BS they're writing.