13 replies to this topic

[Darian DelFord]

I had not seen this topic and granted the search function seriously needs an over haul.

But How many think that Solaris is going to be the major influx of data for PGI to make future balance decisions for mechs and their variants for the entire game?

Is this a good thing? Bad? Optimal?

Just curious. To me looking at the division list (with some exceptions) It looks like within each chassis they are somewhat close.

Just curious is all.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 17 April 2018 - 04:33 AM.

[Bud Crue]

I could have sworn that Chris or maybe Paul said that Solaris would NOT be used for purposes of making balance changes. I thought it was during one of the master’s challenge streams (maybe last months) where that was brought up. I’ll try and find it.

Edit: Sorry couldn’t find it nor a discussion thereof, and I don’t have the time or willingness to go back and listen to old streams and NGNG podcasts. Who knows, I may have DT hallucinated the whole thing. Sorry.

Edited by Bud Crue, 17 April 2018 - 04:59 AM.

[N a p e s]

Darian DelFord, on 17 April 2018 - 04:32 AM, said:

I had not seen this topic and granted the search function seriously needs an over haul.

But How many think that Solaris is going to be the major influx of data for PGI to make future balance decisions for mechs and their variants for the entire game?

Is this a good thing? Bad? Optimal?

Just curious. To me looking at the division list (with some exceptions) It looks like within each chassis they are somewhat close.

Just curious is all.

So you're saying you're not angry with the division lists? Is this a trap?

It makes sense to at least look at the data but this mode is gonna play out pretty differently so that'll have to be kept in mind.

[sycocys]

There's a few things keeping it from helping with balance numbers.

1. The tiers. They can balance within them, but they won't get any accurate data for mechs that aren't competing in those tiers - ie cross tier balance isn't going to be good if applied the the rest of the game.

2. The skill tree/node system is going to throw most of their numbers out of whack because they didn't just eliminate it from the mode. 1 section is totally useless, and another is almost entirely useless other than info gathering if you have spare points.

3. Once the "meta" sets in, the spread of used mechs will be vastly smaller than any other mode. It will be even worse than when quirks were in full effect selecting each months meta.

4. For most people, Solaris will be completely different loadout/builds. Can't really balance the rest of the game based on that, unless they ante up and make some hard choices to push the game away from the current deathball/hide and poke gameplay.

[Darian DelFord]

N a p e s, on 17 April 2018 - 05:19 AM, said:

So you're saying you're not angry with the division lists? Is this a trap?

It makes sense to at least look at the data but this mode is gonna play out pretty differently so that'll have to be kept in mind.

I am not happy with the placements. Personally I do not think there is a placement list out there that will sastify 100% of the population and PGI had to start somewhere. The key will be seeing if those mechs that are placed WAY higher or WAY lower than they should be get moved to more appropriate divisions.

sycocys, on 17 April 2018 - 05:19 AM, said:

There's a few things keeping it from helping with balance numbers.

1. The tiers. They can balance within them, but they won't get any accurate data for mechs that aren't competing in those tiers - ie cross tier balance isn't going to be good if applied the the rest of the game.

2. The skill tree/node system is going to throw most of their numbers out of whack because they didn't just eliminate it from the mode. 1 section is totally useless, and another is almost entirely useless other than info gathering if you have spare points.

3. Once the "meta" sets in, the spread of used mechs will be vastly smaller than any other mode. It will be even worse than when quirks were in full effect selecting each months meta.

4. For most people, Solaris will be completely different loadout/builds. Can't really balance the rest of the game based on that, unless they ante up and make some hard choices to push the game away from the current deathball/hide and poke gameplay.

Yeah I am not a fan of the skill tree in its current form. I think its a start,,,,, but it needs much better customization options. It does not need to be the same tree for every damn chassis with only a few % points difference here and there.

[sycocys]

The skill tree could be mostly fine if it just had a cost to the loadout instead of being a continuation of the bonus buff system that made it imbalanced in its prior form.

Either way though it doesn't make much sense to chop off parts of it for one mode and leave it in full effect for the rest.

Edited by sycocys, 17 April 2018 - 06:50 AM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Using performance data from S7 to balance for QP/FP would be a joke. None of the builds I'm considering for S7 are anywhere near what I take into QP.

[Ghogiel]

Any data can only be used to to move mechs around in the tiers. Obviously PGI might use it to inform other areas if balance in MWO, but that would be flawed because of what the data would show.

For example using the data would suggest buffing some types of lasers or PPCs because they will fair terribly on these small maps in a 1v1 format. Even if making them somewhat meh-viable options in solaris format could be pretty OP in normal play.

Edited by Ghogiel, 17 April 2018 - 08:36 AM.

[Davegt27]

I am just thinking the real reason for the structure slots lol

to limit load outs
I remember back in the day I would have my Jagger packed with ammo
I would never go with dual AC20's because I could never carry enough ammo

go times nowadays I am lucky if I get 7 trigger pulls out of may weapons
oh well

[Chris Lowrey]

Solaris will not be used to balance Quickplay in the same regard that quickplay metrics where not used to divide up the Solaris Divisions. 12v12 / 8v8 telemetry is irrelevant for drawing conclusions about a 1v1/2v2 settings. Nor is 1v1/2v2 arena telemetry relevant to the 12v12 / 8v8 Team game performance. Especially with some of the different factors that we have to account for in the different modes such as different map construction mentality and consumable use rules. Both of which are vastly different in both modes.

At its core MWO was constructed as a Team based game. So Quickplay and Comp play will remain the "anchors" as far as balance decisions go. The Solaris Divisions are seeded to ensure that 'Mechs are competing on a level playing field within the context of the Solaris feature without getting in the way of their quick-play attributes. If something is determined to be over or under-performing in their specific division, this would more then likely prompt reseeding the 'Mechs into different divisions come the next Solaris Season (each season being 3 months.)

With that said, Solaris will remain much like faction play in which while it isn’t the primary mover when it comes to balance changes, we cannot ignore issues within the context of Solaris just as we cannot ignore it when certain things take away from the Faction Play experience. For example, if any particular ‘Mech or loadout is dominating Div. 1 where there is no higher division to bump a ‘Mech towards, this will more than likely cause for a re-evaluation of its current attributes. As no singular ‘Mech or particular loadout should ever be able to lock down 1v1 engagements as a whole. But in most cases, Quick Play and Comp play will remain the primary points at which the game is balanced around.

[N a p e s]

Thanks for the input, Chris.

[Holy Jackson]

I would hope that reseeding would be done more on the monthly timescale than every 3 months.

[Chris Lowrey]

Holy Jackson, on 17 April 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

I would hope that reseeding would be done more on the monthly timescale than every 3 months.

Because of how each division has their own unique ELO rating and Leader boards, If a player wanted to grind the Solaris Leader boards on their favorite 'Mech regardless of the division, having a mid-season swap to that player's favorite 'Mech would mean that he would essentially loose all of his progress and have to start from square one unless he also happened to be grinding the divisions that their favorite 'Mech was transferred into, or happened to have another 'Mech within the division that he wanted to use in Solaris.

While the balance team can never rule out the possibility of a mid-season switch if we feel strongly that it is absolutely necessary, because of the above, normal circumstances will see us take a fresh look at the divisional seeding for each Solaris season.

[Darian DelFord]

Chris Lowrey, on 17 April 2018 - 08:42 AM, said:

Solaris will not be used to balance Quickplay in the same regard that quickplay metrics where not used to divide up the Solaris Divisions. 12v12 / 8v8 telemetry is irrelevant for drawing conclusions about a 1v1/2v2 settings. Nor is 1v1/2v2 arena telemetry relevant to the 12v12 / 8v8 Team game performance. Especially with some of the different factors that we have to account for in the different modes such as different map construction mentality and consumable use rules. Both of which are vastly different in both modes.

At its core MWO was constructed as a Team based game. So Quickplay and Comp play will remain the "anchors" as far as balance decisions go. The Solaris Divisions are seeded to ensure that 'Mechs are competing on a level playing field within the context of the Solaris feature without getting in the way of their quick-play attributes. If something is determined to be over or under-performing in their specific division, this would more then likely prompt reseeding the 'Mechs into different divisions come the next Solaris Season (each season being 3 months.)

With that said, Solaris will remain much like faction play in which while it isn’t the primary mover when it comes to balance changes, we cannot ignore issues within the context of Solaris just as we cannot ignore it when certain things take away from the Faction Play experience. For example, if any particular ‘Mech or loadout is dominating Div. 1 where there is no higher division to bump a ‘Mech towards, this will more than likely cause for a re-evaluation of its current attributes. As no singular ‘Mech or particular loadout should ever be able to lock down 1v1 engagements as a whole. But in most cases, Quick Play and Comp play will remain the primary points at which the game is balanced around.

About what I thought

Chris Lowrey, on 17 April 2018 - 10:24 AM, said:

Because of how each division has their own unique ELO rating and Leader boards, If a player wanted to grind the Solaris Leader boards on their favorite 'Mech regardless of the division, having a mid-season swap to that player's favorite 'Mech would mean that he would essentially loose all of his progress and have to start from square one unless he also happened to be grinding the divisions that their favorite 'Mech was transferred into, or happened to have another 'Mech within the division that he wanted to use in Solaris.

While the balance team can never rule out the possibility of a mid-season switch if we feel strongly that it is absolutely necessary, because of the above, normal circumstances will see us take a fresh look at the divisional seeding for each Solaris season.

Sounds reasonable to me

Now while I got you here.... Any comments on Skill Tree Changes to make them more diversified?

Edited by Darian DelFord, 17 April 2018 - 10:29 AM.