38 replies to this topic

[Chef Kerensky]

This thread is a litmus test for brain parasites, and the positive indicator is anyone who says "well actually the long tom wasn't that bad"

[Iron Buccaneer]

Chef Kerensky, on 21 May 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

This thread is a litmus test for brain parasites, and the positive indicator is anyone who says "well actually the long tom wasn't that bad"

None of us have said we want it back in the game and especially not the way it was when it was launched but it didn't exactly make me cry salty tears. I probably killed as many enemy mechs with their own long tom as I died from it. Still it was disappointing to win a drop and make less c-bills than a non long tom loss because the long tom killed so many enemy mechs no one on the winning side had good scores. I swear I saw some teams do everything they could to die by long tom rather than deal with it. I like they idea behind it but not the way it was implemented which is something I can say about a lot of the features added and removed from Faction Play since phase 1. If only we could cherry pick the best aspects of each phase but alas PGIs approach is never to make incremental improvement and see how they go but rather they opt for complete re-writes often adding features that would have made issues from previous phases less of a problem while removing the content that the new feature would have enhanced.
For instance we didn't get the faction communication and group building features until factions had pretty much be rendered unimportant and units had been nerfed.

[SteamCharts Kerensky]

Chef Kerensky, on 21 May 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

This thread is a litmus test for brain parasites, and the positive indicator is anyone who says "well actually the long tom wasn't that bad"

[Scoops Kerensky]

Chef Kerensky, on 21 May 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

This thread is a litmus test for brain parasites, and the positive indicator is anyone who says "well actually the long tom wasn't that bad"

[ccrider]

Are people here serious? Long Tom was a complete disaster that all but guaranteed an empty queue on any planet it was on. If you were excited to play garbage scout mode then ghost drop for a few hours, I guess you would see it as good but jeebus people; it was completely broken, not fun, chased off more of the population than one bucket and lasted far too long. Doesn't anyone remember when it got nerfed, then a few days later mysteriously gained even more power and radius? Holy crap, I realize it's been awhile but c'mon.

[Chef Kerensky]

Iron Buccaneer, on 22 May 2018 - 10:58 AM, said:

None of us have said we want it back in the game and especially not the way it was when it was launched but it didn't exactly make me cry salty tears. I probably killed as many enemy mechs with their own long tom as I died from it. Still it was disappointing to win a drop and make less c-bills than a non long tom loss because the long tom killed so many enemy mechs no one on the winning side had good scores. I swear I saw some teams do everything they could to die by long tom rather than deal with it. I like they idea behind it but not the way it was implemented which is something I can say about a lot of the features added and removed from Faction Play since phase 1. If only we could cherry pick the best aspects of each phase but alas PGIs approach is never to make incremental improvement and see how they go but rather they opt for complete re-writes often adding features that would have made issues from previous phases less of a problem while removing the content that the new feature would have enhanced.
For instance we didn't get the faction communication and group building features until factions had pretty much be rendered unimportant and units had been nerfed.

[Iron Buccaneer]

Well you guys are clearly intent to take things out of context so grind your axes. I'm sure we all agree that PGI has pretty much wrecked this mode. I sure don't want to see long tom return but you seem pretty invested in framing things that way.

Edited by Iron Buccaneer, 22 May 2018 - 06:09 PM.

[Appogee]

Poor snowflake: "Mummy mummy, stop the artillery for me because I don't want to go Scouting and stop it for myself. And it's too hard for me to stop campaign in a big clump in my favourite safe space when the timer nears zero."

Mummy: "There there, snowflake. We'll just call anyone who could handle Long Tom a 'brain parasite sufferer' so that no-one ever has to man up to something outside their comfort zone ever again."

Poor snowflake: "Thank you mummy. Now can you stop enemies using meta Mechs, and stop them playing in groups, and stop them using strikes on me when I don't move, and open the gates for me, and make my LRMs uber powerful, and stop ECM hiding the enemies, and make the arms on my Night Star higher, and..."

Iron Buccaneer, on 22 May 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

I sure don't want to see long tom return but you seem pretty invested in framing things that way.

The Long Tom idea needed more work. Several easy to implement ideas were provided which would have made it fun and viable and possibly even tolerable by potatos.

But now any discussion of even the idea of it has devolved into "Long Tom bad, Long Tom scare away potatoes, you crazy if you consider Long Tom". And so an integral part of BT and some MechWarrior games is lost.

Such as waste. Particularly in a FPSer that could really benefit from more variety and strategy.

Edited by Appogee, 22 May 2018 - 07:40 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Appogee, on 22 May 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

Fear is a powerful motivator.

While the Long Tom idea needed more work (I could write a dozen easy to implement ideas which would have made it fun and viable... but what would be the point) removing it completely was such a waste.

While Long Tom did indeed present some occasional opportunities for trolling or just screwing around it was still terrible and had to go. As soon as it was active it killed the queue on a given planet. Plus once the various videos of its potential devastation got around it killed the overall faction play population as the more casual players simply left for better things to do.

Fear is indeed a powerful motivator. It motivated folks to abandon FP and many have never returned. Long Tom, and Russ's 6 month refusal to recognize its impact ("the underlying mechanics are fine!"), did more to kill the mode than any other single factor; even more than the elimination of nerd politics and the one bucket "solution".

This isn't and wasn't about snowflakes, it was about having fun in a drop. Long tom more often than not took away the fun of playing the mode and so people left. FP has never recovered because of it.

[MischiefSC]

If Long Tom did 20 total damage to mechs in the area then great. Still a **** idea but not terrible.

Because, to be clear, any game mechanic that kills players other than another player is a bad mechanic.

Forcing people to play scouting so they can play Invasion is also an absolutely terrible idea.

So, in short, Long Tom in any way shape or form is bad. Could it have been less terrible? Sure. However it still was a bad idea.

[Appogee]

Some ideas that would have made Long Tom better:

• Commander of team designates where the shells land. (Drop zones prohibited.)
  
• Long Tom can be destroyed. Maybe even replace the orbital cannon with it.
  
• Long Tom can be captured and controlled like a resource point.
  
• Two Long Toms in play - one near each team's spawn - both capturable.
  
• Mark the spotted point for inbound artillery on players' minimaps.
  
• Make Long Tom a 1t one-shot consumable, like a strike, but with a finite range.

Edited by Appogee, 22 May 2018 - 07:58 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Chef Kerensky, on 21 May 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

This thread is a litmus test for brain parasites, and the positive indicator is anyone who says "well actually the long tom wasn't that bad"

Here here.

Appo - You have gone crazy dude. An arbitrary nuke, that is worse than a consumable air-strike, is a good thing? Do. Not. Want. Nor did the majority of the community that quit because of it.

What it should have done is something like...

• Defending teams - beefed up / more turrents for Siege maps. Maybe longer range ones with ERL? Generators with more HP etc.
  
• Attacking teams - lower HP turrets, maybe gate generators @ 50% HP and maybe Generators with lower HP. Perhaps even one of the gates was open (at random, so you'd have to scout it).
  
• Payouts for games could also be increased as well if you had the "Tier 3" (ex-long tom) slot unlocked. More cbills/xp/loyalty points

Of course the above would mean a slight increase to the Gen HP / Turret HP in the first place cause you cant really cut them more now. It allow attacking teams to employ slightly different tactics and rely a little more on early scouting information on some maps. I am sure there are some other good ideas people have, but no silly nukes plz.



Simple as this... FP4.0 sucks.
FP3.0 sucked.

PGI Killed off 1,000s of players and some of the biggest units in the game - by Russ's total disconnection and lack of understanding of MWO and Faction Play.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 22 May 2018 - 08:13 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

actually phase 3 is their biggest faction play failure and phase 4 was entirely wasted in a last ditch exit strategy effort.

By phase 4 it should have been a fully featured product but instead it was cut down into nothing but play now.

[Appogee]

justcallme A S H, on 22 May 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

Appo - You have gone crazy dude.

I never rule out that possibility.

However, I honestly never had a problem with Long Tom. It wasn't an "arbitrary" nuke. It had to be earned, it could be avoided by anyone paying attention to the timer right in front of their eyes, and could have been turned into something much better than it was, through any of the ideas that I listed above.

I acknowledge that casual players didn't like it. But then they generally don't like anything that requires them to do much more than point and click. I don't believe the game should be designed around that low bar.

Edited by Appogee, 22 May 2018 - 10:09 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Appogee, on 22 May 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

I never rule out that possibility.

However, I honestly never had a problem with Long Tom. It wasn't an "arbitrary" nuke. It had to be earned, it could be avoided by anyone paying attention to the timer right in front of their eyes, and could have been turned into something much better than it was, through any of the ideas that I listed above.

I acknowledge that casual players didn't like it. But then they generally don't like anything that requires them to do much more than point and click. I don't believe the game should be designed around that low bar.

You haven't considered something critical about atomic longtom as PGI implemented it.

Something at a power level of atomic explosion which makes or breaks your match outcome has to have some kind of actual counterplay within that play instance. Quitting and switching modes is not counterplay, its quitting.

If you have to quit playing and switch to 4v4 just to respond, that is breaking a cardinal game design rule if there ever was one.

It was just plum stupid from its inception.


and....this is what happens with the b-team is making Faction Play(literally people with no experience left over from Transverse) and anyone worth their salt is off trying to start making Mechwarrior 5.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 22 May 2018 - 10:19 PM.

[Chef Kerensky]

Appogee, on 22 May 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

Poor snowflake: "Mummy mummy, stop the artillery for me because I don't want to go Scouting and stop it for myself. And it's too hard for me to stop campaign in a big clump in my favourite safe space when the timer nears zero."

Mummy: "There there, snowflake. We'll just call anyone who could handle Long Tom a 'brain parasite sufferer' so that no-one ever has to man up to something outside their comfort zone ever again."

Poor snowflake: "Thank you mummy. Now can you stop enemies using meta Mechs, and stop them playing in groups, and stop them using strikes on me when I don't move, and open the gates for me, and make my LRMs uber powerful, and stop ECM hiding the enemies, and make the arms on my Night Star higher, and..."




The Long Tom idea needed more work. Several easy to implement ideas were provided which would have made it fun and viable and possibly even tolerable by potatos.

But now any discussion of even the idea of it has devolved into "Long Tom bad, Long Tom scare away potatoes, you crazy if you consider Long Tom". And so an integral part of BT and some MechWarrior games is lost.

Such as waste. Particularly in a FPSer that could really benefit from more variety and strategy.

lmfao

*exploding due to enemy lasers and praying to the gods to send a free kill my way* triggered snowflake??? u triggered?

[Bishop Six]

After The Long Tom patch i was out for 1-2 weeks, came back and didnt know about Long Tom.

My unit members laughed and said: "Wait for it, Bishop, thats fun!"

Dropped the first match, Long Tom against us (sure, because how could a small mediocre unit get Long Tom?!) and I. Couldnt. Believe. It.

I thought it was some kind of joke of PGI.

Never in the world could this be meant serious.

[Appogee]

Bishop Six, on 22 May 2018 - 11:54 PM, said:

Never in the world could this be meant serious.

War is hell. Especially that part of the war directly under an incoming arty shell

You gotta admit though that the size and splendor of the initial explosion was a thing of beauty to behold.

Kin3ticX, on 22 May 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

and....this is what happens with the b-team is making Faction Play(literally people with no experience left over from Transverse)

"B" team...?! You flatterer, you

Edited by Appogee, 23 May 2018 - 03:05 AM.

[MischiefSC]

First, I don't want any AI mechanic stealing my kills or damage. I hate dropships lasers too but I get the necessity of them.

The idea of winning or losing an invasion match because of who is in scouting also sucks.

Play scouting because you want to play scouting. If I win in Invasion so Scouting gets 6 mechs instead of 4, suddenly Scouting sucks and the queue empties. If I win Skirmish in QP so the next QP match to drop (that I'm not even in) is suddenly Escort and the VIP has 10x the HP.

These are all terrible ideas in practice. It sounds dramatic in the abstract but it sucks to play. Scouting is for 4v4. Combat ID and radar are already... yeah. Not that big a fan.

Back when FW was actual factions maybe there was a good justification. Now? FW is just a mixed group/QP mode with respawns and each side limited to one tech base. There's no factions. No depth, purpose, identity, none of it. FW as a concept is gone. This is just a different group queue game mode. There's no justification for Scouting impacting Invasion anyway.