39 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

As its unlikely we will see IS-XLs being able to Survive ST destruction,
As the problems such a change would cause(conflict between those for/against the idea)
Why not instead add a neutral zone between the CT and STs that spreads damage,



In this case the added Green Zone(HitBox) would distribute damage to the CT & ST,
Getting hit with an AC10 in said Green Zone would in turn do 5Damage to the Ct & 5 to the ST,

This change could help balance mechs with unfavorable shapes and geometry,
Allowing those mechs to better compete with other more effective mech designs,
Making it harder for opponents to isolate torso locations on those mechs,


=Please Note=
The size of the Green Zone can increase or decrease for to better balance a mech based on the mechs Geo,
Also this Green Zone will not appear on the Paper Doll as it doesnt take damage just spreads it to CT & ST,

=Poll=

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 09 May 2018 - 03:01 PM.

[Koniving]

Am an avid pusher for additional hotboxes splitting health between them. This isn't quite what I have in mind but it could work.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Would be a significant nerf to torso twisting. The whole point of the Marauder is that it has the larger side torso hitboxes that can completely deadside to protect the valuable CT or alternatively it can face the enemy head on and the CT is still a small target that easily spreads damage to the sides.

For that reason I'm going to have to say no to it. Main issue with mechs with bad hitboxes is that they get their CT destroyed quickly, as with assaults, having a huge zone that splits damage between CT and ST only furthers that problem by shifting more damage into the CT that would have otherwise gone to the side torso.

There's currently a good balance between mechs that are good for XL engines and ones that are good for standard/LFE, Ones with favorable hitboxes can go with XLs for more firepower while ones with unfavorable hitboxes can go with LFE/STD and torso twisting to become much more durable.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 May 2018 - 02:40 PM, said:

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?

Come on, noone takes XL on mechs where it matters. That will just make LFE mechs indestructable.

And there is absolutely no need to invent the wheel. Making XL survivable requires one man/week of coding bigger penalty than LFE. Its not that hard.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood,
it really wouldnt be a huge nerf to Torso Twisting, as the Spread Zone doesnt have to be huge,
on most mechs it could be just a small area inbetween the CT & STs, to help the mech with survivability,
also it wouldnt help those who decide face tank as you can still isolate a Mechs CT if their not Twisting,
if anything it would help those who arnt too good at twisting, and make those that are even better,
-
also the MAD is just an example i used, and its only good at what it does because of its Armor/Structure Quirks,
not that i would want those removed, just this is a diffrent way of looking at the Balancing Geo problem,

@Nema Nabojiv,
i feel this would help IS-XL Engines Compete abit more easily, wail not making LFEs too much better,
as you could still target the CT, and CT death doesnt care if you take an XL or LFE,

[Nightbird]

No, because this leads to 1 hitbox 1 HP bar.

There's no replacement for sizing mechs correctly, volumetrically, and for each torso. Assaults would be half the volume they are today, and will be able to spread damage much easier.

[Stridercal]

This... is... well... this actually isn't a terrible idea!

Good job, OP!

However, PGI will sooner build an actual Phoenix Hawk in real life than go back and add the new hit boxes to every mech in the game. Remember, these are the folks that still can't figure out crit-splitting and ammo-switching, FFS.

But still, good idea...

[TheArisen]

It could be worth testing.

[Stridercal]

Nema Nabojiv, on 09 May 2018 - 02:53 PM, said:

Come on, noone takes XL on mechs where it matters. That will just make LFE mechs indestructable.

And there is absolutely no need to invent the wheel. Making XL survivable requires one man/week of coding bigger penalty than LFE. Its not that hard.

It also involves throwing out all the rules of Battletech and any sort of integrated consistency in MWO, but hey, you don't care, right?

[Andi Nagasia]

Nightbird, on 09 May 2018 - 03:13 PM, said:

No, because this leads to 1 hitbox 1 HP bar.

i dont see how, this actually doesnt change the Paper Doll at all,
all is does is add an extra hitbox that spreads damage to the CT & ST,

Nightbird, on 09 May 2018 - 03:13 PM, said:

There's no replacement for sizing mechs correctly, volumetrically, and for each torso. Assaults would be half the volume they are today, and will be able to spread damage much easier.

people may debate it for ever, but the way PGI has Scaled mechs they are all the correct scale,
we may not like the way they scaled them, but they are scaled correctly according to the scaling they used,

[Nightbird]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 May 2018 - 03:19 PM, said:

i dont see how, this actually doesnt change the Paper Doll at all,
all is does is add an extra hitbox that spreads damage to the CT & ST,

It leads to 1 hitbox that spreads damage to all components in proportion to their hp. Otherwise, the good players will continue to focus components and twist, and bad players standing will continue to wonder how they are dying to one alpha.

Andi Nagasia, on 09 May 2018 - 03:19 PM, said:

people may debate it for ever, but the way PGI has Scaled mechs they are all the correct scale,
we may not like the way they scaled them, but they are scaled correctly according to the scaling they used,

Yes... 2+2 = 10, according to the new math I have defined.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Stridercal, on 09 May 2018 - 03:19 PM, said:

It also involves throwing out all the rules of Battletech and any sort of integrated consistency in MWO, but hey, you don't care, right?

True. I dont. After I found CERPPC does 10 damage instead of 15, after we suddenly got extra armor out of thin air because magic, and after we started getting extra heat, because again, magic, I find all appeals to battletech rules simply laughable.

[Stridercal]

Nema Nabojiv, on 09 May 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

True. I dont. After I found CERPPC does 10 damage instead of 15, after we suddenly got extra armor out of thin air because magic, and after we started getting extra heat, because again, magic, I find all appeals to battletech rules simply laughable.

There's a difference between adding balance, and removing balance.

• Ghost heat was added to eliminate the insane boating that was going on.
  
• Armor quirks were added to make up for hit boxes that didn't work in an FPS.
  
• cERPPCs got the nerfed damage spread mechanics because... well, yeah... that's a fair complaint. Restoring clan pinpoint PPC damage would be a very good thing. But still...

Removing a core function of how IS XL engines (don't) work is not nearly the same thing as the tweaks made by PGI above. You'd like to have the rules changed because you don't like them. Check your motivations at the door, homie. And in doing so, you'd be making the game rules inconsistent at the very core. Don't do this.

It's bad enough the weapons are all over the board already. And considering the fact that the IS still maintains a sizable lead in faction play, let's not make the IS mechs any tougher to kill, eh?

[Nema Nabojiv]

Stridercal, on 09 May 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

Removing a core function of how IS XL engines (don't) work is not nearly the same thing as the tweaks made by PGI above. You'd like to have the rules changed because you don't like them. Check your motivations at the door, homie. And in doing so, you'd be making the game rules inconsistent at the very core. Don't do this.


It's bad enough the weapons are all over the board already. And considering the fact that the IS still maintains a sizable lead in faction play, let's not make the IS mechs any tougher to kill, eh?

First, I honestly fail to see how adding more hitboxes is better than just expanding already existing mechanic to already existing engine.

Second, IS mechs wont be any tougher to kill because no one in their right mind puts XL on anything but lights. They will have more tonnage for guns, true. And I believe IS mediums and heavies do need that extra tonnage after all the mechs got like 30% more hp from skills.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 May 2018 - 03:10 PM, said:

@Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood,
it really wouldnt be a huge nerf to Torso Twisting, as the Spread Zone doesnt have to be huge,
on most mechs it could be just a small area inbetween the CT & STs, to help the mech with survivability,
also it wouldnt help those who decide face tank as you can still isolate a Mechs CT if their not Twisting,
if anything it would help those who arnt too good at twisting, and make those that are even better,
-
also the MAD is just an example i used, and its only good at what it does because of its Armor/Structure Quirks,
not that i would want those removed, just this is a diffrent way of looking at the Balancing Geo problem,

You don't seem to understand. The best of the best torso twisting mechs have absolutely no CT showing from the side, this makes them a formidable foe, as the pilot can choose whether or not to take any damage to their CT. Having there be a spread zone *at all* is a huge nerf to this ability, as it opens up the possibility of taking CT damage that wasn't there previously. So for example, the Marauder isn't good because of its rather small durability quirks, its because of those hitboxes. Its a mech that doesn't even really need the durability quirks it gets in the first place, but mostly gets them since its firepower is somewhat anemic and needed to be good at something.

So in effect this makes people who are good at twisting worse at it due to the hitboxes being worse for twisting. For those who aren't good at twisting it also means more damage to their CT due to the buffer zone that now spreads damage to both, for those who don't torso twist they take full damage to CT either way.


We already have an option for balancing bad geometry, and that's armor quirks. Its a simple and effective way of buffing a mech that doesn't involve a whole new mechanic with huge implications and changes to the effectiveness of the small nuances of defense.

This said, I tend to disagree with people's opinions on bad geometry. Big side torsos aren't a problem, big center torso is. This is all due to the whole mechanics of damage transfer through a destroyed component. If you have a huge side torso then this means deadside builds are extremely optimal on the chassis and this can be used to make your CT more than twice as strong.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood,
perhaps, but small CTs and Huge STs remove a whole engine class from IS selection,
yes LFEs are fun to use, and i enjoy them, but IS-XLs still should be an option,

im not saying this is the perfect idea to fix IS-XLs,
but it is a different take on balancing, an interesting idea that could offer some benefits,

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 May 2018 - 04:42 PM, said:

@Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood,
perhaps, but small CTs and Huge STs remove a whole engine class from IS selection,
yes LFEs are fun to use, and i enjoy them, but IS-XLs still should be an option,

im not saying this is the perfect idea to fix IS-XLs,
but it is a different take on balancing, an interesting idea that could offer some benefits,

In general the XL isn't worth using anyway, the better option is just to use a slower LFE. Ever since the engine desync there's no reason for you to use an XL, as the agility no longer increases, and that was the main reason why XLs were viable, as it helped increase the torso twist speeds and also the accel and decel speeds so that they could poke better. Now I can just use an LFE engine and have the same agility and better durability while having the same amount of pod space while going at most generally about 10-15kph slower.

In general the speed gains of XLs just don't seem to be of adequate value to overcome the loss of ability to deadside, as even equally spreading damage to all torso components is much lower durability than that granted by deadsiding. XLs could use a lot of help.

[PocketYoda]

Anything that makes IS time to survive longer i'm all for.. i do not use XL engines on anything anymore except a few lights.. pointless engines.

[LordNothing]

just buff the armor cap when an xl is equipped. you still have to put on extra armor though.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

LordNothing, on 10 May 2018 - 02:21 AM, said:

just buff the armor cap when an xl is equipped. you still have to put on extra armor though.

Sounds good to me. Lets XLs be more durable but not *too* durable for benefits they provide in weaponry (or speed if someone was still using them for that).