51 replies to this topic

[Volume]

I am so very happy about this.

3 of the 4 mechs they've shown us have big autocannons so far - Hunchback, Atlas, Dragon. Also 3/4 have missile weapons - Jenner, Atlas, Dragon.

Missiles always had their purpose, especially LRMs, but I found that in every Mechwarrior game, in many situations, lasers are simply the best weapons to have equipped for a variety of reasons - huge range, hitscan, significant damage, good recycle time, whatever. Obviously there are/were places for PPC/Gauss jump snipers or whatever, and I'm not saying everyone was piloting a nova cat with 7 ERLL. I am not trying to make a "Yet another complaining about Boating" thread, because that's not what this is. It's simply an OBSERVATION:

Devs have said that combat will be in a variety of environments, such as the following:

-Junglescape
-City Planet
-Ice Planet
-Desert Area

Each of these will have different heat build-up, visibility (which will affect combat due to the new electronic warfare), effective combat range, etc.

I think that the emphasis on closer distances will really show the effectiveness of, say, the LBX-AC or SRM, weapons that might not have been the optimal choices in MW2 or even MW3. Honestly, most of my friends and I didn't even use SRMs until MW4 when the hardpoint system basically forced us to (extra tonnage and nothing left but missile racks).

I don't want it to be like MW2 or MW2:Mercs in which the medium pulse laser is the best weapon in the game - I really love the variety of weaponry in the Battletech universe, and another thread here held the whole "why get an AC20 when you can have 4 med lasers" argument, you can see right here - the environment you're in can change everything. Heat buildup, laser dissipation over range, line-of-sight blocking structures or foliage could all contribute to weapon choice. I also get the feeling (speculation & little dev snippets) that lasers will be less instant-full-damage "front-loaded" weapons. Basically, instead of pressing "fire" and doing full damage in an instant, the user might need to hold the laser over the target for a duration of time, doing damage as the laser is held on target. This + all the other factors might make them much less powerful compared to how they were in the past of being the go-to weapon.

I am not saying that they will be overly nerfed and never a good idea, but simply that other weaponry will be functional and have a role, rewarding more balanced loadouts without forcing the issue with some stupid damage penalty for firing multiple of the same weapon at once (actual suggestion I saw in the anti-boating thread).

[Kaemon]

Not king, but maybe queen?

[EDMW CSN]

Personally I am fine if lasers were made that it requires an extended duration over time to do their damage instead of front loading it. However 2 medium lasers at 2 tons doing as much damage as my 12 ton LB-10x autocannon(+1 ton of ammo)is a little wrong no ?

Yes the LB cannons have greater range but face it. In mech vs mech, people will use them up close (often near point blank) for an optimum spread pattern if using cluster shots. ACs still need help and I hope Piranha makes them more viable with their abilities to cause critical hits.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 23 December 2011 - 10:54 AM.

[Omigir]

MW3 'DOT' or point system for lasers I think would solve your problem [EDMW]CSN, simply due to the fact that if you cant keep your pointer in the same spot, and you spread that damage out, you may be better off with an AC which might give a better cluster while moving that close as the AC's may put all that dammage out more quickly then a lasers supposed 3 second or so shoot time. (or 5 seconds for pulse.)

[EDMW CSN]

MW3 14 er small laser shadow cats would beg to differ. MW3 lasers were the pinnacle of pinpoint accuracy and front loaded damage. Their pulse lasers were the ones that require 3 to 4 seconds of constant "beaming" to a target location for maximum damage.

Currently the only MW game that got lasers right is actually MW: LL. In fact they got both lasers and pulse lasers right too.

[Volume]

[EDMW]CSN, on 23 December 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

MW3 14 er small laser shadow cats would beg to differ. MW3 lasers were the pinnacle of pinpoint accuracy and front loaded damage. Their pulse lasers were the ones that require 3 to 4 seconds of constant "beaming" to a target location for maximum damage.

Currently the only MW game that got lasers right is actually MW: LL. In fact they got both lasers and pulse lasers right too.

I think they also got PPC and ERPPC very right...big fan of their Gauss as well. I really like the MW:LL weapon mechanics and would like to see some of their best ideas carried over into this game.

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

I also like the MWLL laser setup. It's not a split-second shot, you have to maintain the heat beam to maximize the damage, and that is much more realistic.

[Tannhauser Gate]

I agree totally that weapons need to be balanced so that TRO loadouts are more effective and logical for the game. But, you are still nerfing boats and no matter how much you or I preach the gospel of TRO, many players will b*tch and moan about not having enough customization (i.e. waa I want my boat). They are too used to games that are 1) all about ranking up to better weapons, 2) shooters with 1 or 2 shot kills, 3) visceral short term gratification of headshooting, grenading, or BFGing your enemy. MW is a much slower, less frenetic attrition game. Some players will still want to play it like a shooter and they will whine if they are forced to embrace MW as a sim.

[Barantor]

LakeDaemon, on 23 December 2011 - 11:22 AM, said:

I agree totally that weapons need to be balanced so that TRO loadouts are more effective and logical for the game. But, you are still nerfing boats and no matter how much you or I preach the gospel of TRO, many players will b*tch and moan about not having enough customization (i.e. waa I want my boat). They are too used to games that are 1) all about ranking up to better weapons, 2) shooters with 1 or 2 shot kills, 3) visceral short term gratification of headshooting, grenading, or BFGing your enemy. MW is a much slower, less frenetic attrition game. Some players will still want to play it like a shooter and they will whine if they are forced to embrace MW as a sim.

Oh well?

If they can't handle the stock load-outs then they probably won't be able to handle their boats. They will whine when their laser boat isn't as effective on a desert world, or complain they have to sit in the water on a jungle world to be effective with their ineffective super laser build. They will complain they can't hit the guy in a light that is strafing around them that they can't alpha strike without overheating.....

The point is that people are going to complain regardless of what happens, I know I won't get everything I want but I just try to have fun with what is there.

[EDMW CSN]

And why should we really care about their whines ? This is MWO, not MW4 with No heat unlimited ammo(NHUA is terrible) games. Either get used to the constraint of the game or you probably be gone else where.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 23 December 2011 - 11:36 AM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

balance can be maintained thru the recharge time on lasers and thru the heat scale system. on the heat level system forced shut downs start early and the risk of explosions start at 14. if the rules are closer to tt on this subject it will help preventing any weapon system from being "king"

Edited by Geist Null, 23 December 2011 - 11:39 AM.

[Lethal Joke]

I do liike the terrain/climate idea. It has merit.

And noting others whining about overheating in a desert with a laser-exclusive mech would certainly be entertaining.

[Bullet Magnet]

This sounds fine to me. I never liked stacking on nothing but lasers anyways...I always had a mixture of weapon types. And even then, in MW3 (the game I played most) a clan ER PPC was the same tonnage as an ER large laser, so I usually used those instead.

[Volume]

LakeDaemon, on 23 December 2011 - 11:22 AM, said:

I agree totally that weapons need to be balanced so that TRO loadouts are more effective and logical for the game. But, you are still nerfing boats and no matter how much you or I preach the gospel of TRO, many players will b*tch and moan about not having enough customization (i.e. waa I want my boat). They are too used to games that are 1) all about ranking up to better weapons, 2) shooters with 1 or 2 shot kills, 3) visceral short term gratification of headshooting, grenading, or BFGing your enemy. MW is a much slower, less frenetic attrition game. Some players will still want to play it like a shooter and they will whine if they are forced to embrace MW as a sim.

That's my point. They don't need to do anything to prevent boating. Follow MW2 or MW3 or the TT or something other than MW4 and MechAss. Basically, give people a long rope to hang themselves. If someone wants to put 4 PPCs on a 'Mech and nothing else, fine, let them. Let other players punish them for it. Give PPCs a minimum range like they do in the TT, make them overload your own electronics, generate tons of heat, etc. If someone wants to put 7ERLL on their 'Mech, okay, go for it, but they can't be surprised when they can't fire without overheating and proceed to get chewed up by the 'Mech with 4 ML, SRM6, LBX-AC5, and LGauss because it doesn't need to worry about heat as much as theirs. Or maybe that 7ERLL build is perfect on maps with bodies of water...if you chain-fire them, if you stagger the heat buildup, preventing alpha-bursting.

Basically, if someone wants to build a boat, okay, fine, but don't design the game to support boats - design it to support balanced loadouts, the way the TROs work, the way that Battletech is. Obviously, we won't be using any Hellbringer D's, but at least give stock loadouts and variants a chance.

Anyway the point isn't "nerf boats by making them do less damage when multiple lasers are fired" or "nerf boats by not allowing customization," but "make TRO builds viable by enforcing rules about heat, ammo explosions, core breaches, shutdowns, and other such things on boaters. Things that have allowed boats to be "better" in the past because of their minimal impact (override shutdown, coolant flush, etc) can still be in the game, but please make the game unforgiving and punishing to people who do not want to actually THINK about their equipment.

[Skwisgaar Skwigelf]

Coolant flush should go bye-bye, or at least modify it so that you build heat MUCH quicker after you have flushed coolant out.

[Kaemon]

I wonder if theyr'e looking at debuff items in case a weapon type becomes too powerful.

i.e.Re-active armor in case the AC-# cause too much dmg per minute, mech mounted fog machine (which would be interesting from a strategery POV) to deflect/reduce laser dmg and shroud mech movements.

These types of items would allow for a bit more fluidity in managing the weapon systems, while adding more immersion to the game, IMO.

Oh, and I'm willing to bet a few C-Bills that the desert planet is melee only (or at least melee combat focused due to over heating issues).

Edited by Kaemon, 23 December 2011 - 11:55 AM.

[Volume]

Kaemon, on 23 December 2011 - 11:54 AM, said:

I wonder if theyr'e looking at debuff items in case a weapon type becomes too powerful.

i.e.Re-active armor in case the AC-# cause too much dmg per minute, mech mounted fog machine (which would be interesting from a strategery POV) to deflect/reduce laser dmg and shroud mech movements.

These types of items would allow for a bit more fluidity in managing the weapon systems, while adding more immersion to the game, IMO.

Oh, and I'm willing to bet a few C-Bills that the desert planet is melee only (or at least melee combat focused due to over heating issues).

This would be very cool. I'm pretty sure they mentioned something about having a melee-combat-only world at some point. Not 100% if the desert is that or not.

With 15-20 minute matches, I can't say that we'll be doing refits in the field, but perhaps over campaigns or, say, best-of-three or best-of-five matches, we could alternate loadouts (including armor types) between missions.

I get the feeling that they will tweak damage and whatnot eventually, but will probably start with TT numbers for baseline damages. Which is probably a better idea than the random numbers from MW4.

[Raeven]

'Mechs get Reflective armor and Abalative? armor at some point in time. Reflective is stronger against lasers, and ablative is stronger against kinetic weapons.

[Petroff Northrup]

Kaemon, on 23 December 2011 - 11:54 AM, said:

Oh, and I'm willing to bet a few C-Bills that the desert planet is melee only (or at least melee combat focused due to over heating issues).

I am willing to take that bet.


I would also like to see free coolant pods on every mech go away as well as a decreased prominence of lasers.

[Raeven]

Volume, on 23 December 2011 - 12:01 PM, said:

This would be very cool. I'm pretty sure they mentioned something about having a melee-combat-only world at some point. Not 100% if the desert is that or not.

I think the melee combat world only is going to be Solaris VII and was a misinterpretation by the article author. I would love to be wrong though.