171 replies to this topic

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Im disapointed. Clan laservomit has been king for so long.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MechaBattler, on 12 May 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

I think you can still make viable builds with those mechs. And I think Chris knows that.

And why nerf builds that aren't meta and aren't over performing?

Removing play styles from the game for no good reason is why everyone complains so much, if it keeps up we're going to have a single best mech with best weapon combination while everything else is junk, then that gets nerfed and we just keep walking down the stairs. No balance.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 12 May 2018 - 07:47 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

Good job guys. We cried until we got our way. This is an important life lesson.

You seem to be missing something. You're reducing this down to simply a nerf. This is a robot-breaking nerf. Mechs like my 3x erml 2x hll linebacker got destroyed. Unlike the hellbringer, linebackers don't have the pod space and weight to strap on two lpls instead of 2 hlls. Swapping out a hll for a erml would leave it not just undergunned, but under tonnage.

Mechs like the hunchie iic got gutted. What's the laser vomit hunchie iic supposed to run with this nerf? Rainbow light show? What's the madiic supposed to run? A mix of ermls, mpulses and lpls? What?

This nerf is akin to putting ghost heat on ismls. It destroys a good number of fun is robots. This nerf destroys a good number if fun clan robots. The stupid thing is that the clan combo of gauss/lasers is currently the dominant loadout especially on mechs like the desthstrike. This nerf does NOTHING to counter that. Deathstrikes will just swap a couple of their hmls to ermls and keep trucking. Meanwhile non meta mechs get destroyed. The only thing this nerf will achieve is force clan pilots to run the most meta robot in mwo.

If you want is-clan parity, this nerf works AGAINST your interest. You'll never see atlases, awesomes, battlemasters or zeuses anywhere anymore. Not when they have to go up against dakka and gauss/laser mciis. It's anni or bust.

[FireStoat]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 May 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

And why nerf builds that aren't meta and aren't over performing?

That was the exact point I was making. And I still feel bad for anyone that owns a Spirit Bear after the KDK mobility nerf + engine decouple from agility + general clan weapon nerfs + multiple SRM nerfs on top of the most recent Artemis nerf. Players that can recognize garbage balance minimal effort aren't stupid for calling it out.

[Tarl Cabot]

Their first step should have been to possibly left HML @ two but linked it with both large laser and Clan Laser linked group, then review reducing ghost heat threshold by one instead of two for the others, in that order.

Though I do love it that Russ keeps tweeting that he has to rein in the nerfs (nerds...) and allowing them to meter them out instead of all at one time.

I mean IS mechs, especially light assaults and lower, need to rely on LFE for slightly less speed/slightly less weight savings than isXL in order to get the ALMOST the same benefit as the cXL (surviving loss of ONE side torso) while equipping bulkier and heavier equipment.

As for quirks, they come and go, especially for IS. For the most part, hasn't there been more neutering of IS quirks then buffing? It is easier to do that way than buffing the weapons themselves, while for the most part Clan mechs come with fewer or lower quirk percentages, before Skill tree nodes are applied.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 12 May 2018 - 08:18 PM.

[Samantha Rbnsn1990]

Monkey Lover, on 12 May 2018 - 12:30 PM, said:

Im happy he is going to remove all the nerds around here.

But...Nerds is awesome candy!! Been around forever!

They're hard to find actually where I come from.

[Judah Malganis]

I think there will be regret down the line on the part of those who straight opposed it. They will probably drop damage, or increase laser heat, or such in a future patch. We'll find ourselves with less bang for the tonnage on Clan laser vomit. With the GH nerf, as much as it sucked, you could at least drop 'excess' laser tonnage for sinks, a TC, or whatever. Their next fix will probably put Clan laser vomit in a place were they get less value per ton but have to eat the drop due to not having an alternative.

Edited by Judah Malganis, 12 May 2018 - 08:50 PM.

[Mortalcoil]

Wil McCullough, on 12 May 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

You seem to be missing something. You're reducing this down to simply a nerf. This is a robot-breaking nerf. Mechs like my 3x erml 2x hll linebacker got destroyed. Unlike the hellbringer, linebackers don't have the pod space and weight to strap on two lpls instead of 2 hlls. Swapping out a hll for a erml would leave it not just undergunned, but under tonnage.

Mechs like the hunchie iic got gutted. What's the laser vomit hunchie iic supposed to run with this nerf? Rainbow light show? What's the madiic supposed to run? A mix of ermls, mpulses and lpls? What?

This nerf is akin to putting ghost heat on ismls. It destroys a good number of fun is robots. This nerf destroys a good number if fun clan robots. The stupid thing is that the clan combo of gauss/lasers is currently the dominant loadout especially on mechs like the desthstrike. This nerf does NOTHING to counter that. Deathstrikes will just swap a couple of their hmls to ermls and keep trucking. Meanwhile non meta mechs get destroyed. The only thing this nerf will achieve is force clan pilots to run the most meta robot in mwo.

If you want is-clan parity, this nerf works AGAINST your interest. You'll never see atlases, awesomes, battlemasters or zeuses anywhere anymore. Not when they have to go up against dakka and gauss/laser mciis. It's anni or bust.

What if you used those linebacker omnipods to use... gasp... a weapon system other than lasers? I know it's a scary concept, but IS has been doing it for years.

[Xetelian]

MechaBattler, on 12 May 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

I think you can still make viable builds with those mechs. And I think Chris knows that.

What good are these 'viable' builds when they still have the duration and heat of clan weaponry without the benefit of a higher alpha?


Thats what they've been doing to balance the two laser techs, the clan stuff burns longer and has higher heat, take away their alpha and you NEED to reduce the duration and heat to compensate.


If they had been balancing properly they would have been buffing the lasers in those ways while limiting how many you could take. If you can only take 4 ERML and 1 HLL then it doesn't make sense for them to still have the nerfs from ages ago.

[Mortalcoil]

Xetelian, on 12 May 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

What good are these 'viable' builds when they still have the duration and heat of clan weaponry without the benefit of a higher alpha?


Thats what they've been doing to balance the two laser techs, the clan stuff burns longer and has higher heat, take away their alpha and you NEED to reduce the duration and heat to compensate.


If they had been balancing properly they would have been buffing the lasers in those ways while limiting how many you could take. If you can only take 4 ERML and 1 HLL then it doesn't make sense for them to still have the nerfs from ages ago.

What about the clan's better heat dissipation, faster speed, longer range, better targetting computers? I couldn't help but notice you didn't bother mentioning any of those benefits.

and people talk about clan having worse DPH, but, while some of the clan weapons are minutely hotter, (.1-.2 DPH hotter) the ER med laser do IDENTICAL DPH for IS and clan? Why do clan lasers produce so much more heat? Because they do a lot more damage. Repeat after me. Clan weapons produce more heat because they do more damage.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 09:02 PM, said:

What about the clan's better heat dissipation, faster speed, longer range, better targetting computers? I couldn't help but notice you didn't bother mentioning any of those benefits.

and people talk about clan having worse DPH, but, while some of the clan weapons are minutely hotter, (.1-.2 DPH hotter) the ER med laser do IDENTICAL DPH for IS and clan? Why do clan lasers produce so much more heat? Because they do a lot more damage. Repeat after me. Clan weapons produce more heat because they do more damage.

Because better heat dissipation, faster speed, longer range, and better targeting computers generally don't matter or don't even exist. Here's the math AGAIN on Clan vs IS laser vomit in the heavy category under the ghost heat change

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 May 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

2LPL+4ERML HBR (21 heatsinks)
Damage: 52
Duration: 1.25s
Heat: 45.2
Cooling: 3.65s
Damage/tick: 41.6/s
Damage/Heat: 1.15
Time to Cool: 12.38

2LPL + 4 ERML EBJ-PRIME (old meta is now new meta for laser vomit)
Damage: 52
Duration: 1.25s
Heat: 45.2
Cooling: 4.25s
Damage/tick: 41.6/s
Damage/Heat: 1.15
Time to Cool: 10.64

2LL+6ERML GHR-5N (21 heatsinks) (-5% heat and some durability quirks)
Damage: 48
Duration: 1.10s
Heat: 38.95
Cooling: 3.65/s
Damage/tick: 43.64
Damage/Heat: 1.23
Time to Cool: 10.67

3LL+6ERML GHR-5P (20 heatsinks) (+5% range and some durability quirks)
Damage: 52
Duration: 1.10
Heat: 48
Cooling: 3.5
Damage/tick: 47.27
Damage/Heat: 1.08
Time to Cool: 13.71

6ERML + 2LL + 1LPL BL-6B-KNT (-10% heat, sensor range boost, substantial structure boosts)
Damage: 58
Duration: 1.10
Heat: 43.425
Cooling: 3.5
Damage/tick: 52.73
Damage/Heat: 1.34
Time to Cool: 12.41

So ton for ton IS has superior laser vomit *and* they have the option to bring more *AND* in a twist of irony the highest alpha build in the list that also has the highest structure quirks also has the highest damage per heat and damage per tick and just gets a random sensor boost because reasons.

I don't know what you mean by
"an IS mech carrying a 250LFE + 6DHS will have around 2.9Heat Dissipation/Sec @21.5 & 28Crits,
an Clan mech carrying a 250XL + 6DHS will have around 3.5Heat Dissipation/Sec @22.0 & 30Crits,"
Clan heatsinks aren't better than IS heatsinks, they're just smaller.

Also in practice many laser boating Clan mechs in question don't even have access to endo or ferro such as the Hellbringer, which has equal heatsinks with the first Grasshopper build there. Ebon Jaguar gets more heatsinks than all the rest here, pretty much best clan mech for laser vomit under the new conditions and its worse than any of the IS options aside from in time to cool off.

None of this takes into account IS having superior cooldown, duration, and heat gen skill tree nodes.

Hellbringer actually has equal heat dissipation to some of the IS builds there, you can see the math on how long it takes for the different builds to cool off after one alpha. You can see in 2/3 IS builds IS has superior damage:heat ratios. Also note that no one ever really uses TCs because more heatsinks is generally a better option, especially after the huge TC nerf awhile ago.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 12 May 2018 - 09:12 PM.

[Wil McCullough]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 08:43 PM, said:

What if you used those linebacker omnipods to use... gasp... a weapon system other than lasers? I know it's a scary concept, but IS has been doing it for years.

Yeah sure i could. I have a srm backer in actual fact. That's the more meta linebacker build actually. But what about the hunchie iic? Or the mad iic? Those can't change pods. So how now brown cow? Change varient? Change chassis?

If is mls had ghost heat, would that argument fly with you? To just change chassis variant?

Because this nerf barely affects the more common clan laser boats. Ebon jags, hellbringers and the gauss/laser mciic will still perform with lpls/hml+erml spam. With this nerf, you're not going to see less clan laser vomit. You're just going to see morr of those clan mechs.

Is that what you want? More ej/hellbies? Be careful what you wish for.

[Y E O N N E]

If you're gonna go back to LPL, the EBJ re-asserts itself over the HBR. HBR is only as good as it is because the EBJ is sub-par for running HLL.

[Mortalcoil]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 May 2018 - 09:11 PM, said:

Because better heat dissipation, faster speed, longer range, and better targeting computers generally don't matter or don't even exist. Here's the math AGAIN on Clan vs IS laser vomit in the heavy category under the ghost heat change



Hellbringer actually has equal heat dissipation to some of the IS builds there, you can see the math on how long it takes for the different builds to cool off after one alpha. You can see in 2/3 IS builds IS has superior damage:heat ratios. Also note that no one ever really uses TCs because more heatsinks is generally a better option, especially after the huge TC nerf awhile ago.

and you still ignore range, movement, and heat dissipation. Sorry, clan doesn't get to be better at everything. I know that's a really hard pill to swallow. oh, wait, they cried until they got the changes dropped.

See, this is a common strategy of people who think they are good at arguing. They focus on 1 point that looks good for them, and throw out every single other metric that looks bad.

You ignore how god awful all of the black knight's hard point locations are,besides the 1 medium head laser. You ignore that the most popular black knight is the bonus armor black knight with no heat reduction. You ignore that the grasshopper has, again, mostly crappy waist level hard points, and 2 high hard points. You ignore the faster speed. You ignore the better range. Why, because that doesn't look good for your argument.

Wil McCullough, on 12 May 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

Yeah sure i could. I have a srm backer in actual fact. That's the more meta linebacker build actually. But what about the hunchie iic? Or the mad iic? Those can't change pods. So how now brown cow? Change varient? Change chassis?

If is mls had ghost heat, would that argument fly with you? To just change chassis variant?

Because this nerf barely affects the more common clan laser boats. Ebon jags, hellbringers and the gauss/laser mciic will still perform with lpls/hml+erml spam. With this nerf, you're not going to see less clan laser vomit. You're just going to see morr of those clan mechs.

Is that what you want? More ej/hellbies? Be careful what you wish for.

Did you know one of the most popular builds for IS is the BLR 1g with 5-6 LL's or ELL's? How is this possible, for a mech to have more weapons than ghost heat allows?

Edited by Mortalcoil, 12 May 2018 - 09:47 PM.

[Bombast]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 09:49 PM, said:

Did you know one of the most popular builds for IS is the BLR 1g with 5-6 LL's or ELL's? How is this possible, for a mech to have more weapons than ghost heat allows?

The mechanics of ERLL snipping from a kilometer away are a bit different than midrange poking at 500 meters, or brawling at 200 meters. A mech sniping at that kind of distance can afford to stretch their burn time out by stagger firing, because they can can disengage and go into cover well before any weapon that operates at that range can do significant damage. At 500 meters, stagger firing can lose you 4+ tons of armor before you can reverse back into cover. At 200 meters, stagger firing can be essentially the same as forgoing cover all together and just living in the open.

[Wil McCullough]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 09:49 PM, said:

Did you know one of the most popular builds for IS is the BLR 1g with 5-6 LL's or ELL's? How is this possible, for a mech to have more weapons than ghost heat allows?

In fp i'm guessing. There's a 4erll hellbie too.

Doesn't change the fact that the proposed nerf destroys a lot of clan mech builds, some of which the mechs are actually built for - lile the hunchie iic and madiic.

That point is something you keep sidestepping. Together with the other point that gauss/lasers straight up outperforms pure laser vomit and the nerf does nothing to address that.

You're coming across as seeking clan tears, not actual.balance.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 09:49 PM, said:

Did you know one of the most popular builds for IS is the BLR 1g with 5-6 LL's or ELL's? How is this possible, for a mech to have more weapons than ghost heat allows?

For all your whining about ignoring things, you sure do seem to like doing it.

IS LLas/ERLLas has a 1.1s burn duration. cHLLas has a 1.55s burn duration.

You can get a two-stage IS LLas burn fired in 1.6s. It will complete in 2.7s. You can get a two-stage cHLLas burn fired in 2.05s. It will complete in 3.6s. You need more than two seconds of exposure just to be able to fire the second one. If you want to get your full burn off, you're exposing for close to four seconds.

Any competent player can already make a decent stab at punishing an IS ERLLas two-stage burn. Trying to two-stage cHLLas is suicidal when a Gauss/Las MC-II or IS ERLLas sniper is on the field, they'll both get their full damage onto you before you even finish firing, and it will spread far less.

[Luminis]

frumpylumps, on 12 May 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

delaying some of your lasers .5 for a bigger burst of damage was apparently just too much for clan babies.

Dude, I'm sorry to say this, but your stats don't look like you're the kind of player who should give others advice on how to play the game.

I know, stat shaming is bad and all, but man, if you want to act like you've got the game all figured out and need to call others out because they're - according to you - too bad to stagger their shots, you better make sure you're actually in a position to lecture people about how to play the game. Reeks of Dunning-Kruger otherwise.

Judah Malganis, on 12 May 2018 - 08:35 PM, said:

They will probably drop damage, or increase laser heat, or such in a future patch. We'll find ourselves with less bang for the tonnage on Clan laser vomit.

But that's exactly what needs to happen. Reduce the tonnage efficiency without killing of Mechs that have to rely on lasers.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

Wil McCullough, on 12 May 2018 - 07:48 PM, said:

Mechs like the hunchie iic got gutted. What's the laser vomit hunchie iic supposed to run with this nerf? Rainbow light show?

Deathstrikes will just swap a couple of their hmls to ermls and keep trucking. Meanwhile non meta mechs get destroyed. The only thing this nerf will achieve is force clan pilots to run the most meta robot in mwo.

Not sure about the MAD-IIC, but the HBK-IIC can just run 2ERLL 4ERML and keep on trucking.

And I've never seen HMLs on the deathstrike. The meta was always 2Gauss, 2ERLL, 4ERML, which would not have been nerf-hammered by the proposed patch.

[Thorqemada]

I dont remember a single PTS that has come out with something reasonably good so why bother???