101 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

Has anyone other than Koniving actually done the math? Because it seems like even with the nerf, the clans could have still edged out the IS in the laser vomit war.

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 12 May 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

Anyone willing to spend a few hours can check it out for themselves. Just take whatever clan mech you have with six meds, build it with four meds instead of six and play some games with it. Dont need PTS for that.

My Hellbringer with 2xHLL + 4 CERML is still doing great. Once the patch comes I'll simply switch to 2xCLPL + 4xCERML, and still be ok.

[Y E O N N E]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

totally true, besides the fact that 90ish% of mechs in MRBC and tournaments are clan, and IS has never won a single FP event, the game is very balanced. I agree.

Most of the FP events were lost because the IS were stomping it hard in the beginning and then the good units switched en masse to Clan half-way through for a number of reasons including better incentives and lower wait times.

[Vxheous]

MechaBattler, on 12 May 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

Has anyone other than Koniving actually done the math? Because it seems like even with the nerf, the clans could have still edged out the IS in the laser vomit war.

Koniving's math is wrong because he incorrectly read the patch notes and assumed that you could fire 5 CERML without ghost heat penalty, when in fact it is 4 CERML. In terms of raw alpha, had the patch done through, IS laser alpha would have been higher than clans, at a shorter duration (and slightly reduced range).

[Vonbach]

frumpylumps, on 12 May 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

A shameful display. I don't like to see developers backtrack on needed changes because part of the community don't want to lose their crutch.

Pretty much. Basically the devs chickened out.

[Vxheous]

frumpylumps, on 12 May 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

A shameful display. I don't like to see developers backtrack on needed changes because part of the community don't want to lose their crutch.

Vonbach, on 12 May 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

Pretty much. Basically the devs chickened out.

PGI realized that they were about to experience another mass exodus of players, like when Skill Tree patch dropped. Every month, more and more people ditch this game for other games.

[Mortalcoil]

Vxheous, on 12 May 2018 - 04:37 PM, said:

PGI realized that they were about to experience another mass exodus of players, like when Skill Tree patch dropped. Every month, more and more people ditch this game for other games.

Really shows you the mindset of players in a game who will leave when they don't get to be overpowered anymore.

I mean, seriously, you only want to play a game because you are overpowered? and if they nerf it you leave? I say let em go. These are clearly players who are not healthy to a community.

Edited by Mortalcoil, 12 May 2018 - 04:51 PM.

[Vxheous]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

Really shows you the mindset of players in a game who will leave when they don't get to be overpowered anymore.

I think it has less to do with "overpowered" and more to do with what people find "fun". Unless you're playing strictly faction warfare, players playing clan laser vomit would still be trading against other players playing clan laser vomit on the opposing side.

[Bombast]

[Mortalcoil]

Vxheous, on 12 May 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

I think it has less to do with "overpowered" and more to do with what people find "fun". Unless you're playing strictly faction warfare, players playing clan laser vomit would still be trading against other players playing clan laser vomit on the opposing side.

Yes, some people find being overpowered fun. I find clan laser vomit to be rather boring.

Edited by Mortalcoil, 12 May 2018 - 04:59 PM.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 03:32 PM, said:

totally true, besides the fact that 90ish% of mechs in MRBC and tournaments are clan, and IS has never won a single FP event, the game is very balanced. I agree.

FP events are decided by the merc units following the best payouts.

[Vxheous]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 04:59 PM, said:

Yes, some people find being overpowered fun. I find clan laser vomit to be rather boring.

Can't have it both ways:

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

I'm having a laugh at the people crying while also being happy that the nerfs didn't go through. I know it's hard to believe, but there it is.

[Mortalcoil]

Vxheous, on 12 May 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

Can't have it both ways:

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I find clan laser vomit to be boring, but I use it because it's so ridiculously strong.

[Mystere]

Vxheous, on 12 May 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

I think it has less to do with "overpowered" and more to do with what people find "fun". Unless you're playing strictly faction warfare, players playing clan laser vomit would still be trading against other players playing clan laser vomit on the opposing side.

Precisely. This is why I think it is extremely silly to complain about Clan vs. IS balance outside of the context of CW. <smh>

[Moochachoo]

Did it really get reversed? Thank god, lasers are the only weapon advantage clans have over IS, clan weapon selection is paltry, if the ghost heat nerf went ahead I would stop playing clans all together.

Edited by Moochachoo, 12 May 2018 - 06:05 PM.

[Mystere]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 04:59 PM, said:

Yes, some people find being overpowered fun. I find clan laser vomit to be rather boring.

So don't play it and instead play something you like. No one is really holding a gun to your head.

[Y E O N N E]

Moochachoo, on 12 May 2018 - 05:59 PM, said:

clan weapon selection is poultry

Now, now, don't be a turkey...

[Mortalcoil]

Mystere, on 12 May 2018 - 05:59 PM, said:

So don't play it and instead play something you like. No one is really holding a gun to your head.

and be at a disadvantage? nah.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MechaBattler, on 12 May 2018 - 03:56 PM, said:

Has anyone other than Koniving actually done the math? Because it seems like even with the nerf, the clans could have still edged out the IS in the laser vomit war.

Many people did the math on day one, here it is.

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 May 2018 - 07:03 PM, said:

2LPL+4ERML HBR (21 heatsinks)
Damage: 52
Duration: 1.25s
Heat: 45.2
Cooling: 3.65s
Damage/tick: 41.6/s
Damage/Heat: 1.15
Time to Cool: 12.38

2LPL + 4 ERML EBJ-PRIME (old meta is now new meta for laser vomit)
Damage: 52
Duration: 1.25s
Heat: 45.2
Cooling: 4.25s
Damage/tick: 41.6/s
Damage/Heat: 1.15
Time to Cool: 10.64

2LL+6ERML GHR-5N (21 heatsinks) (-5% heat and some durability quirks)
Damage: 48
Duration: 1.10s
Heat: 38.95
Cooling: 3.65/s
Damage/tick: 43.64
Damage/Heat: 1.23
Time to Cool: 10.67

3LL+6ERML GHR-5P (20 heatsinks) (+5% range and some durability quirks)
Damage: 52
Duration: 1.10
Heat: 48
Cooling: 3.5
Damage/tick: 47.27
Damage/Heat: 1.08
Time to Cool: 13.71

6ERML + 2LL + 1LPL BL-6B-KNT (-10% heat, sensor range boost, substantial structure boosts)
Damage: 58
Duration: 1.10
Heat: 43.425
Cooling: 3.5
Damage/tick: 52.73
Damage/Heat: 1.34
Time to Cool: 12.41

So ton for ton IS has superior laser vomit *and* they have the option to bring more *AND* in a twist of irony the highest alpha build in the list that also has the highest structure quirks also has the highest damage per heat and damage per tick and just gets a random sensor boost because reasons.

I don't know what you mean by
"an IS mech carrying a 250LFE + 6DHS will have around 2.9Heat Dissipation/Sec @21.5 & 28Crits,
an Clan mech carrying a 250XL + 6DHS will have around 3.5Heat Dissipation/Sec @22.0 & 30Crits,"
Clan heatsinks aren't better than IS heatsinks, they're just smaller.

Also in practice many laser boating Clan mechs in question don't even have access to endo or ferro such as the Hellbringer, which has equal heatsinks with the first Grasshopper build there. Ebon Jaguar gets more heatsinks than all the rest here, pretty much best clan mech for laser vomit under the new conditions and its worse than any of the IS options aside from in time to cool off.

None of this takes into account IS having superior cooldown, duration, and heat gen skill tree nodes.

IS currently already is superior in its top laser build vs the Clan top laser build in damage per tick, and thus is capable of beating Clan mechs in a laser trading based environment, especially when higher IS durability comes into play and the skill tree nodes mentioned are calculated.

If the changes had gone through Clans would have no chance against IS laser vomit at all.

[Crazy Joe]

Mortalcoil, I think you've missed the point of most of the discussions happening regarding those nerfs. Looking around, most people agreed (Clan and IS side) that the alpha discrepancy was too great. Sure, that's easy to see. Having said that though, the reason people were upset about these nerfs is not because they were nerfs to Clan tech. They were/are upset because these were ghost heat nerfs that a. affected mechs that weren't part of the problem and b. serves to destroy a playstyle instead of just being nerfs that leave a playstyle intact while nerfing its efficacy. The latter is not difficult to do. Nerf the damage of the lasers a bit. Boom, done, problem solved. People can still play laser vomit if that's their jam, but hey, now it's not quite as strong as it once was.

Having a lot of lasers to fire at once is not the issue, so the ghost heat change made no sense. Having too-high-alpha was.That was why people were complaining about these changes. They targeted the wrong part of the problem, which would've technically made the change they were looking for, but in the most hamfisted and annoying way possible. Most folks here are open to sensible changes made along the correct avenue.

Just to make myself clear, I am pro-nerf, where necessary. I am on board with reining in laser vomit if it's too strong over IS counterparts. What I am not okay with is more ghost heat penalties when there are other more eloquent ways of solving this discrepancy. Like reducing the damage outright and perhaps reducing burn time and/or heat slightly to compensate, reducing alpha but keeping damage per tick and heat per damage the same or similar. That would be far more appropriate than what we saw on Friday with the patch notes.

Edited by Crazy Joe, 13 May 2018 - 01:27 AM.