29 replies to this topic

[Armored Yokai]

Long Range Missiles are a high risk/high reward type of weapon, they do incredibly well in lower tiers because people don't know how to counter them and they are often dropped in favor of directfire in the higher tiers. Russ may not want to buff LRMs because he probably has staff including himself that plays with the lower tier players, hence why he is thinking that LRMs may be OP.

Long Range Missiles should be used in nearly every game possible so we can have more variety and tactical play instead of direct-fire galore!
There's so many counters that can render them useless and to back that up i'll give a list.

Satan Box ECM
Close range under 190m
Cover
Direct fire weapons
Stealth Armor
Radar Dep
AMS
Required maintaining of the lockening



If lrms are considered bad by the majority of the community, then either a portion of the counters need a reduction/removal or lrms need a buff.

If we can't get buffed lrms then ECM and Radar dep have to receive changes!
ECM needs to not block enemy detection but rather reduce the targeting time by a percentage and Radar deprivation is an unhealthy hard counter for the already poor performing LRMS & Streaks and therefore needs to be removed or changed into something else, like, the enemy can't see your loadout or paper doll but can still target you.

Here are the buffs that lrms could use!
LRMs still deal damage under 190m but by -10-20% (I recall that LRMs shattered someone's cockpit when they were fired really close)
LRMs need Artemis IV changes that tighten the spread by 20%
LRMs do not require a maintained lock to go after the target (remote controlled missiles.)
Narced Targets automatically have LRMs home in on them or locking area is increased by a large percentage.

Edited by Armored Yokai, 14 May 2018 - 08:36 AM.

[CK16]

You buff them to be good at top "tier" you make life hell in tier 5....pretty much the words of Russ,Paul. And Chris.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

LRMs don't get a buff because bads still can't manage to defend themselves against them when they can just choose to win in the mechlab. PGI has stated this.

[Variant1]

No lrms are a low risk/low reward weapon. They are indirect fire lock on weapons that should not compete with direct fire so long as it has that indirect fire. They can fire over terrain meaning no exposure to direct fire is required. Since this a team game locks will be easy to come by. Also lrms indirect fire build bad habits (not sharing armor, no bringing any backup weapons)etc

Most users on the forums boat lrms, most of the community doesnt. You can look up on google search on how many lrms op threads there were, there is a reason lrms got mega nerfed.

I use launchers on my catapult/treb/jenner but i dont boat them. Buffing them would mean alot more players would leave like they did during lrmageddon. There are only a few counters to them cover, ams(if there is alot of it) and stealth armor.

ECM already got nerfed into oblivion and is now just a waste of crit and tonnage. It used to counter lrms well now its questionable

I will happily be on the buff lrm train when its indirect fire gets removed. Right now with it its just an aimbot wallhack, do you want aimbot wallhack to be competitive with direct fire weapons that dont have the aimbot wallhack feature?

edit:added a few things,spelling

Edited by Variant1, 14 May 2018 - 08:18 AM.

[JediPanther]

At last count when I made the thread about it lrms had a total count of 40 counters. 40 isn't enough for just installed noobs. The first nerf being that BIG *** RED FLASHING WARNING then the audio cue of missiles. imagine how crapy this game would be if guns and lasers had just those 2 soft counters. ECM was the first hard counter when the 3L was added to the game and it took years to nerf its range from 180 to the current 90m

Still the slowest projectile in the game at a mere 180ms you'll find virtually every other weapon has a faster velocity then you can add on the velocity nodes from firepower for even faster. Use a mech quirked for ballistic velocity and you can make guass near-instant hit if your aim of good.

[K O Z A K]

Lrms just got buffed recently, which made them much more prominent in QP (solaris pulling the good players contributed to this). I had to do qp drops, which I otherwise wouldnt touch anymore, for the event. The average drop I encountered 4-6 missile boats on each side, and this is T1, I'm scared to think what T5 games look like now. Direct fire mechs are almost getting screwed in qp now because half your team simply refuses to get LOS on the enemy. This isn't much of an issue in group que or FP where you're playing with friends who won't be using you for lock shields, but solo QP promotes selfish attitudes like this.

If you guys want lrms to get serious buffs they have to lose the ability to use friendly locks or something, otherwise you're gonna end up with games of 10 missile boats on each side sitting behind the hill waiting for the 2 guys to get them locks, it will be very static

[El Bandito]

[Bombast]

LRMs just got buffed.

Armored Yokai, on 14 May 2018 - 07:51 AM, said:

Long Range Missiles are a high risk/high reward type of weapon,...

LRMs are low risk.

[Alexander of Macedon]

LRMs are ineffective against good players and highly effective against bad & new players. Buffing does nothing for their performance in T1 while making them murderously effective against people too inexperienced or unskilled to utilize their primary hard counter of good positioning. Their secondary counters are two more that're binary: either you take AMS/radar derp or you don't. If you have them, missileboats get ******. If you don't, they don't (unless you also use cover).

You'd need to buff them to obscene degrees--I'm talking tripling missile HP vs. AMS, giving them four damage per missile, &c.--for them to be dangerous enough to be worth using against good players.

[Brain Cancer]

Alexander of Macedon, on 14 May 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

LRMs are ineffective against good players and highly effective against bad & new players. Buffing does nothing for their performance in T1 while making them murderously effective against people too inexperienced or unskilled to utilize their primary hard counter of good positioning. Their secondary counters are two more that're binary: either you take AMS/radar derp or you don't. If you have them, missileboats get ******. If you don't, they don't (unless you also use cover).

AMS should be non-optional on Trial layouts. If nothing else, it'd make AMS use more habitual (and new LRM users less effective unless they actually learn to play them beyond "target, mash fire) on newer players, especially if they got whacked AFTER taking the AMS mounts off later on. It's one of the issues with Trials, along with making builds that push the edge if the chassis is skilled up, not taking into account that Trials cannot be skilled up in the least.

[Metus regem]

Brain Cancer, on 14 May 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

AMS should be non-optional on Trial layouts. If nothing else, it'd make AMS use more habitual (and new LRM users less effective unless they actually learn to play them beyond "target, mash fire) on newer players, especially if they got whacked AFTER taking the AMS mounts off later on. It's one of the issues with Trials, along with making builds that push the edge if the chassis is skilled up, not taking into account that Trials cannot be skilled up in the least.

We may not agree on much Brain, but on these points we do.

[MischiefSC]

Locking, tracking weapon with IDF.

If only we had discussed this topic before we would have some basis from which to discuss it again.

Too bad, I guess we need to go over all the details again, from scratch, comparing math and several years of collected data and results vs a few peoples anecdotal experience like somehow those two are comparable.

[Brain Cancer]

Metus regem, on 14 May 2018 - 12:39 PM, said:

We may not agree on much Brain, but on these points we do.

Disagreement on any number of points should never be a reason to not agree on the ones you feel right.

MischiefSC, on 14 May 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:

Locking, tracking weapon with IDF.

If only we had discussed this topic before we would have some basis from which to discuss it again.

Too bad, I guess we need to go over all the details again, from scratch, comparing math and several years of collected data and results vs a few peoples anecdotal experience like somehow those two are comparable.

Or, you know we could just take Paul's commentary on how he makes LRMs deliberately bad so they don't touch the newbies in their no-no places, rather than taking missile countermeasures and embedding them in the new player experience via trials.

[Vellron2005]

Ok, here we go again...

First off, I think LRMs are in a great place right now. They do their job well.. And what are their jobs you ask?

1) Battlefield control - forcing enemies into cover
2) Punishment - dealing lots of overall A.O.E. damage to targets in the open.
3) Support fire - making targets softer and more manageable overall
4) Indirect fire - delivering damage over own's teammates in narrow spaces or behind cover, second line situations. Making 1 vs 1 engagements "unfair" by turning them into 2 vs 1 engagements.

People need to abandon the notion that every weapon in the game is meant only to "one-shot-kill".. LRMs are NOT meant for that.. and therefore, don't need buffs to turn them into indirect nukes. They are not meant for making a player soloing or 1 vs 1-ing people. This is why LRMs don't need damage, spread, or other "effectiveness" buffs.

What they DO need however is the following:

1) Lock-on arc nerf reverted - bring lock on arcs back to 45% and re-introduce the noble art of LRM bending (where skilled players can shoot LRMs around corners and over high cover)

2) Re-lock on a different target.. Introduce the ability to shoot LRMs without lock, then acquire lock in-flight to hit a target, or if fired with lock, and loosing lock, locking the same or different target to hit while missiles in flight.

3) Guided shots - Let missiles hit a single targeted mech component "painted" by TAG. So if you're painting the target's right torso with a TAG as the missiles hit, most/all the missiles hit the right torso..

These changes would make LRMs alot more attractive, competitive, and useful in higher tiers, and the lower tier people would not be affected as much, since these would all be the hallmarks of experienced lurmers..

P.S.

You know why Trail mechs don't have AMS? Because Trial mechs use community made meta-builds. And the tryhards don't use AMS. They will rather cram as many lasers and dakka as can fit. This is also why Trial mechs are never dedicated LRM boats. (which should also be featured in Trials to teach new players how to LRM boat).

Edited by Vellron2005, 14 May 2018 - 11:50 PM.

[Kroete]

CK16, on 14 May 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

You buff them to be good at top "tier" you make life hell in tier 5....pretty much the words of Russ,Paul. And Chris.

How many trials mount ams?
The answer says alot about these statement and these people ...

Edited by Kroete, 15 May 2018 - 03:57 AM.

[Orion ji]

Hazeclaw, on 14 May 2018 - 08:33 AM, said:

they have to lose the ability to use friendly locks

I use lrms on most my builds and never see them 'use friendly locks'. If I break lock they go stupid and move mud instead.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Orion ji, on 15 May 2018 - 04:23 AM, said:

I use lrms on most my builds and never see them 'use friendly locks'. If I break lock they go stupid and move mud instead.

What he means is the ability to get IDF/extreme range locks using friendly locks. When a friendly locks a target that's outside your FOV or sensor range, it gives you the ability to lock them as well.

[Leone]

Bombast, on 14 May 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

LRMs are low risk.

Incorrect.

With a direct fire weapon, you can fire an forget. Torso twist, take cover, whatever. Also, the only counters are cover and maybe minimum range. With LRMs you hafta gain an maintain lock, there are a plethora of counters, above and beyond the good ol' terrain. Long Range Missiles also happen to have a bit more utility than direct fire, mainly, the indirect option.

Hence High Risk (all the counters) and High Reward (Capacity to narc or uav someone and get free damage). Sorry, I'd thought the OP had spelt it out.

Kroete, on 15 May 2018 - 03:56 AM, said:

How many trials mount ams?
The answer says alot about these statement and these people ...

Actually, that's more a statement about the community, since, you know, the community designed all the trials. Mainly that the community thinks lrms have it hard enough out there.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 15 May 2018 - 11:45 AM.

[K O Z A K]

Leone, on 15 May 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

Incorrect.

With a direct fire weapon, you can fire an forget. Torso twist, take cover, whatever. Also, the only counters are cover and maybe minimum range. With LRMs you hafta gain an maintain lock

you're assuming the lrm mech is getting their own locks and not sitting behind friendlies, which is how the vast majority people play them

[Bombast]

Leone, on 15 May 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

Incorrect.

With a direct fire weapon, you can fire an forget. Torso twist, take cover, whatever. Also, the only counters are cover and maybe minimum range. With LRMs you hafta gain an maintain lock, there are a plethora of counters, above and beyond the good ol' terrain. Long Range Missiles also happen to have a bit more utility than direct fire, mainly, the indirect option.

Hence High Risk (all the counters) and High Reward (Capacity to narc or uav someone and get free damage). Sorry, I'd thought the OP had spelt it out.

LRMs are low risk. Their one of two weapons where you don't even need to be in line of sight to actually hit someone.The fact there are counters is meaningless, since the most common counter, cover, counters everything, and the other two primary counters are easily overwhelmed.

I thought that was self-evident.