67 replies to this topic

[Luminis]

Seriously, do it.

After watching bear_cl4w pklay the Blood Asp with a Gauss Vomit build that isn't going to be affected by it, I'm convinced it's okay to go ahead and set the GH limit for the cERML to 4.

Us "filthy Clanners" tried to explain time and time again that the issue we had with that proposed nerf isn't Clan lasers getting nerfed, but the nerfed at hand hitting the wrong targets, but explaining won't do: Push that "nerf" out and let people realise what's going to happen:

Every Deathstrike that doesn't do so already is gonna move from 6 ERML 2 Gauss to 4 ERML 2 ERLL 2 Gauss and sling an even bigger alpha strike around, the BAS is gonna run somthing like 2 LPL 4 ERML 1 Gauss and instead of HBRs vomitting just lasers, we'll have EBJs mixing Gauss and lasers for a little less damage and better heat efficiency (not like the HBR is gonna go away, 2 ERLL 4 ERML is plenty playable).

The Mechs that gonna take a real hit? OP stuff like the Ice Ferret! That's gonna stick it to them filthy Clanners, mang!

Seriously, I don't care that this is a change for the worse overall but at this point, I just want to be able to write a "told you so" post once the changes go through.

Peace!

Edited by Luminis, 15 May 2018 - 09:59 PM.

[Khobai]

CERML should just be nerfed to 6 damage and lower heat respectively.

Nerfing it to ghost heat limit of 4 is idiotic. Im glad that got rolled back.

giving clans a worse alpha than IS, with longer beam duration, and longer cooldown would just make clan lasers strictly worse than IS lasers. especially since the whole clan range advantage doesnt really exist due to abundance of IS laser range quirks. that isnt balance.

clans should have a slightly higher alpha with the downside of longer beam duration and longer cooldown. CERML at 6 instead of 7 gets us there. thats gives clans a slightly bigger alpha instead of a considerably bigger alpha.

CHLL probably needs its damage lowered too. 16-17 instead of 18. And again lower the heat respectively.

But FFS leave the ghost heat limit alone.

Edited by Khobai, 15 May 2018 - 10:27 PM.

[Luminis]

Khobai, on 15 May 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:

giving clans a worse alpha than IS, with longer beam duration, and longer cooldown would just make clan lasers strictly worse than IS lasers. that isnt balance.

Of course it is idiotic, what else would anyone call a nerf that doesn't do squat about the top Clan Mechs and just hurts second rate stuff with no compensatory buffs.

But some Spheroids insisted that "we" protested the GH change to protect "our" meta Mechs, but you know what? Getting PGI to come through with that nerf, THAT is gonna protect the meta Clan Mechs. So have at it, I say.

[Monkey Lover]

Luminis, on 15 May 2018 - 10:14 PM, said:

Of course it is idiotic, what else would anyone call a nerf that doesn't do squat about the top Clan Mechs and just hurts second rate stuff with no compensatory buffs.

But some Spheroids insisted that "we" protested the GH change to protect "our" meta Mechs, but you know what? Getting PGI to come through with that nerf, THAT is gonna protect the meta Clan Mechs. So have at it, I say.

I dont think the idea was to kill clan mechs. The idea was to bring it down a little. You can't tell me it wouldnt do anything or people would be running those other builds now.

You are correct it wouldnt have made IS op overnight.

[Luminis]

Monkey Lover, on 15 May 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

The idea was to bring it down a little. You can't tell me it wouldnt do anything or people would be running those other builds now..

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying the MCII-B doesn't care, the MCII-DS doesn't care, the BAS doesn't care, the WHK doesn't care, the EBJ doesn't care, the HBR only cares a little, the PIR doesn't care, Splatbackers don't care, Splat HMNs don't care.. . None of the Clan Mechs that **** people up care. The Mechs that are being brought down a notch are the ones that aren't OP by any stretch of imagination.

/edit:
Forgot the poptart SMN, doesn't care either.

Edited by Luminis, 15 May 2018 - 10:47 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Their stated goal for the change was to bring IS and Clan laser vomit closer together. Had nothing to do with any other builds. The method was a poor choice. But let's not skew what they very plainly stated as the reason for the change. It wasn't an attack on metas.

[Monkey Lover]

Luminis, on 15 May 2018 - 10:41 PM, said:

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying the MCII-B doesn't care, the MCII-DS doesn't care, the BAS doesn't care, the WHK doesn't care, the EBJ doesn't care, the HBR only cares a little, the PIR doesn't care, Splatbackers don't care, Splat HMNs don't care.. . None of the Clan Mechs that **** people up care. The Mechs that are being brought down a notch are the ones that aren't OP by any stretch of imagination.

/edit:
Forgot the poptart SMN, doesn't care either.

Assault mecha shouldnt care it wasnt a nerf to hurt all clans
Ebon laser builds would have been hurt.
Hunch2c laser would have been hurt.
Splat builds were not a target.

Over all it wouldnt have been a big change i agree i was never worried about it one way or the other.

[Wil McCullough]

MechaBattler, on 15 May 2018 - 10:53 PM, said:

Their stated goal for the change was to bring IS and Clan laser vomit closer together. Had nothing to do with any other builds. The method was a poor choice. But let's not skew what they very plainly stated as the reason for the change. It wasn't an attack on metas.

The same people salty about clan laser vomit will still be salty if the proposed nerf goes through. Because the main guilty mechs suffer little to no effect from the nerf. In fact, they'll probably be MORE salty because you know what's going to happen to clan pilots who use mechs like the 2xhll/2xlpl shadowcat, he 2xhll 3xerml linebacker or the 5xmpl 2xlpl madiic? They're gonna switch to hunchies, ebons and mad cat iics to get their laser vomit fix.

It'll be meta upon meta because fringe builds got curb stomped.

[Luminis]

Wil McCullough, on 15 May 2018 - 11:31 PM, said:

The same people salty about clan laser vomit will still be salty if the proposed nerf goes through. Because the main guilty mechs suffer little to no effect from the nerf. In fact, they'll probably be MORE salty because you know what's going to happen to clan pilots who use mechs like the 2xhll/2xlpl shadowcat, he 2xhll 3xerml linebacker or the 5xmpl 2xlpl madiic? They're gonna switch to hunchies, ebons and mad cat iics to get their laser vomit fix.

It'll be meta upon meta because fringe builds got curb stomped.

Exactly.

Whatever they intended to achieve with this, it's not going to help with faction balance, it's not going to help with build diversity, it's not going to help with TTK. If that change achieves whatever PGI's goal was, I'd consider said goal to be questionable in and of itself.

Maybe the entire point is to throw the Spheroids a bone while still allowing Deathstrike and friends to keep farming components for as long as the MWO's servers keep running?

Edited by Luminis, 15 May 2018 - 11:40 PM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 15 May 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:

CERML should just be nerfed to 6 damage and lower heat respectively.

Nerfing it to ghost heat limit of 4 is idiotic. Im glad that got rolled back.

Damage reduction is in some ways worse than GH limitation. Suppose CERML is nerfed to 6 damage. With 6 CERML you will spend 6 tons/slots/hardpoints for 36 damage. Now imagine if CERML GH is limited to 5 max--you can bring 5 CERML using 5 tons/slots/hardpoints for 35 damage. I think latter is better deal.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 May 2018 - 12:12 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Damage reduction is in some ways worse than GH limitation. Suppose CERML is nerfed to 6 damage. With 6 CERML you will spend 6 tons/slots/hardpoints for 36 damage. Now imagine if CERML GH is limited to 5 max--you can bring 5 CERML using 5 tons/slots/hardpoints for 35 damage. I think latter is better deal.

the latter is also still overpowered. like I said, 7 damage for 1 ton is too much. a 40% damage advantage over the ISERML is absurd.

the whole point is to reel the CERML in enough so that its roughly equal to the ISERML.

lowering it to 6 damage mostly accomplishes that. clans get +1 damage but longer beam duration and cooldown. and higher heat. but the CERML and ISERML are pretty close then.

making clan weapons roughly equal to IS weapons is the best way to achieve 1:1 parity.

conversely, lowering ghost heat to 5 doesnt achieve 1:1 parity. since 5 CERML will still be way better than 5 ISERML.

Edited by Khobai, 16 May 2018 - 12:23 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Khobai, on 16 May 2018 - 12:17 AM, said:

lowering it to 6 damage mostly accomplishes that. clans get +1 damage but longer beam duration and cooldown. and higher heat. but the CERML and ISERML are pretty close then.

Balance is pretty good when we're debating 1dmg on a weapon

I remember the week clans came up and clanners said they were not op haha

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 16 May 2018 - 12:17 AM, said:

making clan weapons roughly equal to IS weapons is the best way to achieve 1:1 parity.

conversely, lowering ghost heat to 5 doesnt achieve 1:1 parity. since 5 CERML will still be way better than 5 ISERML.

True dat.

[SFC174]

El Bandito, on 15 May 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

Damage reduction is in some ways worse than GH limitation. Suppose CERML is nerfed to 6 damage. With 6 CERML you will spend 6 tons/slots/hardpoints for 36 damage. Now imagine if CERML GH is limited to 5 max--you can bring 5 CERML using 5 tons/slots/hardpoints for 35 damage. I think latter is better deal.

I don't think its about a better deal, I think its about the right way to try and achieve better balance.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Clan lasvomit is nearly the issue that some do. But where I do see a minor issue is in the maximum alpha available. I think less dmg compensated by shorter cooldown/duration and/or less heat increases play options. The longer the cooldown and/or duration the more you force people into max alpha/hide and wait playstyle.

I'm in favor of reducing CERML dmg by 1 and CHLL by 2. Drop the heat, cooldown and duration by 5% on each of them (maybe 10%). DPS doesn't change much, but you reduce alphas by 11-14%. Increased rate of fire and sustainability will let players be a little more flexible.

[Lupis Volk]

Monkey Lover, on 15 May 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

You are correct it wouldnt have made IS op overnight.

Nah that requires intelligence. Something the average player might not have. *cough* excluding Davions *cough*

[Wil McCullough]

El Bandito, on 15 May 2018 - 11:58 PM, said:

Damage reduction is in some ways worse than GH limitation. Suppose CERML is nerfed to 6 damage. With 6 CERML you will spend 6 tons/slots/hardpoints for 36 damage. Now imagine if CERML GH is limited to 5 max--you can bring 5 CERML using 5 tons/slots/hardpoints for 35 damage. I think latter is better deal.

No because 5 is an ugly number and 6 is pretty.

Nyeh nyehhhh

[Luminis]

Monkey Lover, on 16 May 2018 - 12:25 AM, said:

Balance is pretty good when we're debating 1dmg on a weapon

Balance has been way worse for sure. There were a few months it was better, but the difference isn't huge. That said, 1 damage per weapon on a weapon that's usually run in a sixpack adds up. It's not as small a change as it seems, I believe.

[lazorbeamz]

Seriously dont do it. When there are so many mechs which can conviniently carry 6 cerml then there should be no stupid GH restrictions to do so. It will just break the game.

GH limit of 1 HLL, ERLL etc is even worse and even more stupid. You can already carry TWO of those on lights.

Im satisfried with the clan vs IS laser balance for the most part and i dont see the need for any change.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 16 May 2018 - 02:08 AM.

[Luminis]

lazorbeamz, on 16 May 2018 - 02:02 AM, said:

Im satisfried with the clan vs IS laser balance for the most part and i dont see the need for any change.

Regarding the IS vs Clan balance, I'd much rather see the IS LPL nerf undone than pretty much any other change, but I guess that ain't happening because reasons

[lazorbeamz]

LPL have their niche. They have increased heat effectiveness. IS LPL has a whooping 1.38 damage per heat and it is pretty ridiculously good for a mid range laser weapon.

Thats about it. If they get buffed at some point they start to dominate the game being mid/close range hitscan heat effective brawling weapons and we ve been there already. 3 LPL used to be mainstray.

Nowdays you cna still see these weapons on Black knights, marauders, ebj, shc and many others. Sometimes the tonnage/slot restrictions make LPL ideal for the build.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 16 May 2018 - 02:20 AM.