78 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Was just thinking about MWO compared to tabletop, half armor values in TT but shots go to random places. I was thinking about what if MWO had the same durability values as TT but the mechs were much much more mobile so that they effectively make shots to to semi random places, like you have the speed to see the enemy fire an AC20 and then torso twist to have your arm or side torso take the blow before it gets to you.

If I understand correctly, this would be a true representation of TT, not that whole "convergence is bad" thing, since mech AI automatically attempts to dodge/spread incoming damage as long as the user isn't trying to use themselves to shield something else.

It also sounds really fun and action packed, mechs moving around with great agility, a powerful and accurate dual AC20 shot ripping off over half the armor on an Assault's CT, snipers out at range trading PPC shots attempting to dodge them before impact, its a scene where even melee seems like it could happen.


I know MWO isn't ever radically changing into this, I know mechwarrior in general wouldn't be like this, I'm just wondering who else prefers a lower time to kill that greatly rewards user input. Game's been moving further and further from this state the longer I've been with it sadly, though I guess it makes sense that others would prefer the opposite of me.

[FupDup]

I wouldn't, because nearly every other FPS in existence offers that. And they probably do it a lot better.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

FupDup, on 17 May 2018 - 08:08 PM, said:

I wouldn't, because nearly every other FPS in existence offers that. And they probably do it a lot better.

I don't know of any that do. In stuff like CSGO and general mainstream FPSes bullets are mostly just traces or pretty much instant, you aren't getting out of their way before they hit. Also there's the difference with all the hitboxes of a mech, the ability to build a loadout for the mech that isn't just picking what gun you want, and then all the mechanics that come with battletech such as heat.

There's a whole lot of nuance involved.

[Yosharian]

I'm playing Battletech right now and it's amazing that I only need to carry one ton of ammo for my AC5, LRM15, rack of SRMs, etc. It's like I suddenly understand why ammo-based weapons are actually worth taking in tabletop.

Apart from that, I just wish the game's performance was better. (MWO, not Battletech)

Edited by Yosharian, 17 May 2018 - 08:19 PM.

[Nightbird]

We had ballerina assaults before, when it was possible to get your XL 100 tonner into the single digit % before dying by spreading damage to every spot possible. PGI did not like it.

[Anjian]

The lower your TTK the more you would need respawns. The higher your TTK the less you would need respawns. A game experience cannot be a short one. Length of game time is necessary for commitment and immersion within a game.

[FupDup]

Yosharian, on 17 May 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

I'm playing Battletech right now and it's amazing that I only need to carry one ton of ammo for my AC5, LRM15, rack of SRMs, etc. It's like I suddenly understand why ammo-based weapons are actually worth taking in tabletop.

Ammo requirements in TT/BT are much lower than MWO because of firing rate mostly. When you only shoot once per ten seconds you tend to not burn through bullets as quickly.

[FupDup]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 17 May 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

I don't know of any that do. In stuff like CSGO and general mainstream FPSes bullets are mostly just traces or pretty much instant, you aren't getting out of their way before they hit. Also there's the difference with all the hitboxes of a mech, the ability to build a loadout for the mech that isn't just picking what gun you want, and then all the mechanics that come with battletech such as heat.

There's a whole lot of nuance involved.

In MWO we've got mechs that are fat targets with slow movement speed, even with twitchy agility they're not going to be great at dodging (outside of lights and some mediums). We do also have some instant-hit weapons of our own here (lasers).

As for hitboxes, a big part of why it's significant for gameplay is because the mech's total health is so high. With very low HP values, precision wouldn't be as important since the target is going to get melted pretty quickly regardless of where you hit. Even with our current inflated HP people can get melted pretty quick by certain loadouts (I use laser vomit frequently).

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Anjian, on 17 May 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

The lower your TTK the more you would need respawns. The higher your TTK the less you would need respawns. A game experience cannot be a short one. Length of game time is necessary for commitment and immersion within a game.

Basically covered in this guy's post here.

Nightbird, on 17 May 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

We had ballerina assaults before, when it was possible to get your XL 100 tonner into the single digit % before dying by spreading damage to every spot possible. PGI did not like it.

Time to kill itself wouldn't actually be lower, its just potentially much lower or potentially much higher depending on user input. Basically no handholding people who get flanked or don't respond to being shot.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

FupDup, on 17 May 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Ammo requirements in TT/BT are much lower than MWO because of firing rate mostly. When you only shoot once per ten seconds you tend to not burn through bullets as quickly.

That's exactly why higher Ttk was needed. Except for the C-SSRM6, every single MWO weapon would have fired twice at least beider any weapon in BT would.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

FupDup, on 17 May 2018 - 08:37 PM, said:

In MWO we've got mechs that are fat targets with slow movement speed, even with twitchy agility they're not going to be great at dodging (outside of lights and some mediums). We do also have some instant-hit weapons of our own here (lasers).

As for hitboxes, a big part of why it's significant for gameplay is because the mech's total health is so high. With very low HP values, precision wouldn't be as important since the target is going to get melted pretty quickly regardless of where you hit. Even with our current inflated HP people can get melted pretty quick by certain loadouts (I use laser vomit frequently).

If an Annihilator can go from full forward to full reverse in a tenth of a second then I can see it getting good at dodging real quick. Also an Annihilator can potentially absorb 12 78 damage alpha strikes currently taking only damage to the torsos if it uses proper deadsiding. In a situation where mobility is so high that you have practically full control of where the enemy's laser burns are going to hit but the Annihilator had half health then that's still 6 alpha strikes that it can absorb, which is higher than the 3 that its CT alone takes currently with people who can't twist well.

You were here back when agility was good, don't you remember how much Atlases took to take down back when they could effectively put so much of the enemy's damage into their arms that they lose both of them before a side torso?

[MechaBattler]

I think more agility for lights and mediums. But not to heavies. Maybe a touch to assaults. But I don't want TTK to get to the level of other FPS. I prefer the dynamic we have. It's gotten better imo.

[FupDup]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 17 May 2018 - 08:41 PM, said:

If an Annihilator can go from full forward to full reverse in a tenth of a second then I can see it getting good at dodging real quick. Also an Annihilator can potentially absorb 12 78 damage alpha strikes currently taking only damage to the torsos if it uses proper deadsiding. In a situation where mobility is so high that you have practically full control of where the enemy's laser burns are going to hit but the Annihilator had half health then that's still 6 alpha strikes that it can absorb, which is higher than the 3 that its CT alone takes currently with people who can't twist well.

You were here back when agility was good, don't you remember how much Atlases took to take down back when they could effectively put so much of the enemy's damage into their arms that they lose both of them before a side torso?

Yeah the Atlas was tough (and still is, but for different reasons), but in this hypothetical example I'm assuming that you'd be reducing our HP values lower than even before the era of quirks.

Based on that "dual AC/20 ripping over half the armor off an assault CT" example in the OP, that would be a pretty significant HP reduction even if you meant a 100-tonner in that example (current non-quirk armor for 100-ton CT is 124, you'd be reducing it below 80 which is a cut of more than 30%).

That old agile Atlas didn't have the HP it has now, but it still had way more HP than what your OP implies. That would cancel out the added agility damage spreading.

Edited by FupDup, 17 May 2018 - 08:50 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

FupDup, on 17 May 2018 - 08:49 PM, said:

Yeah the Atlas was tough (and still is, but for different reasons), but in this hypothetical example I'm assuming that you'd be reducing our HP values lower than even before the era of quirks.

Based on that "dual AC/20 ripping over half the armor off an assault CT" example in the OP, that would be a pretty significant HP reduction even if you meant a 100-tonner in that example (current non-quirk armor for 100-ton CT is 124, you'd be reducing it below 80 which is a cut of more than 30%).

That old agile Atlas didn't have the HP it has now, but it still had way more HP than what your OP implies. That would cancel out the added agility damage spreading.

I'm suggesting a situation where we just cut in half armor and structure, 50%. Durability quirks would also be cut 50% to compensate. However the agility would be brought up to levels even higher than those of before so that the door is opened up to not only damage spreading, but also damage dodging. If you're at max effective range for an AC20 shot you'd be able to potentially dodge the shot. So what I'm suggesting would considerably increase time to kill at high skill levels while decreasing it at low skill levels, bringing torso twisting and active defense to the forefront of gameplay that new players would learn and improve at to go from easy prey to unkillable gods of war.

[Y E O N N E]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 17 May 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

I'm suggesting a situation where we just cut in half armor and structure, 50%.

Oh.

I was assuming you wanted the game to resemble how it was in 2015. With this, though, I'm out.

[FupDup]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 17 May 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

I'm suggesting a situation where we just cut in half armor and structure, 50%. Durability quirks would also be cut 50% to compensate. However the agility would be brought up to levels even higher than those of before so that the door is opened up to not only damage spreading, but also damage dodging. If you're at max effective range for an AC20 shot you'd be able to potentially dodge the shot. So what I'm suggesting would considerably increase time to kill at high skill levels while decreasing it at low skill levels, bringing torso twisting and active defense to the forefront of gameplay that new players would learn and improve at to go from easy prey to unkillable gods of war.

50% HP? Yeah, there's no way that most mechs will become "unkillable gods of war" like that unless we cranked the agility up to literal standard FPS levels. And even then I just need only a single salvo from a completely average laser vomit mech to rip off any hitbox of my choice. They can twist all they want, their ST or leg is still gone immediately.

I'm also trying to picture this on the most extreme end of the spectrum, the light class. 20-ton mechs with just 12 HP per leg. Yeah...that's kinda crazy. Even the biggest lights would only have 24 on each leg and ST...if they somehow survived the initial 64+ laser alpha they'd be finished off in the second one. Even a 65-ton heavy would lose a fresh ST to a "tame" laser vomit build.

I think you just went...

Edited by FupDup, 17 May 2018 - 09:14 PM.

[Besh]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 17 May 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

I'm suggesting a situation where we just cut in half armor and structure, 50%. Durability quirks would also be cut 50% to compensate. However the agility would be brought up to levels even higher than those of before so that the door is opened up to not only damage spreading, but also damage dodging. If you're at max effective range for an AC20 shot you'd be able to potentially dodge the shot. So what I'm suggesting would considerably increase time to kill at high skill levels while decreasing it at low skill levels, bringing torso twisting and active defense to the forefront of gameplay that new players would learn and improve at to go from easy prey to unkillable gods of war.

Queue wait time . Waiting for everyone to connect, and ready up . Moving to where the engagement happens . Can easily amount to 5mins+ all together . Then you get squishhed in about 0 time . I am sure people would absolutely love it [/s].

Also, Lights?

[Khobai]

no one who understands battletech would prefer low TTK/high mobility

because thats not battletech

battletech has always been close to equal parts TTK and mobility. mechs should be armored enough that they dont die instantly and can take a solid beating, and they should be agile/mobile enough that skillful torso twisting pays off.

because thats the whole point of a mech... its an armored tank with the agility of a bipedal robot.

Edited by Khobai, 17 May 2018 - 09:32 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Everyone's health goes down, lights lose less health than heavier classes, leaving them as just as capable of killing them.

That said, yeah the whole loading and queue times of MWO make this not really a possibility unless we swapped over to having dropdecks in quickplay so you can spawn into multiple mechs per loading cycle and also went back to using small maps so the fighting would be constant instead of a short brawl then a big walk then a short brawl then another big walk.

Also a laser build wouldn't rip off the side in one shot with ease, it'd more likely be able to be spread to at least all 5 upper hitboxes, shooting the leg could definitely be a big issue though, which is where it all falls apart since you can't just torso twist a leg shot, at best you can turn so that both legs take a bit of damage.

[Wil McCullough]

Why would anyone want to reduce combat to a dice roll? Random hit locations are silly when every mech has a player as a pilot.

How would you like it if a potato fired in your general direction and took your head off with a gauss round when the game has barely started? And now you have to sit through a 20 min simulation of "combat" because no one can land shots where they want?

Random hit locations with big ppfld is broken as hell. You may as well cut out all combat and simulate the match like some kind of battletech football manager.