26 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Doubletapping sooner than 0.5s does not increase the jam rate.

However the jam rate on UACs is way too high. 16% jam is miserable.

Quote

Yes, but on TT I believe it permanently disabled the weapon system

Either way RNG jamming is a bad mechanic. UACs should not randomly jam at all.

Instead UACs should have a jam bar like RACs do. When the jam bar fills up they should jam 100% of the time.

and I think RACs should switch to a magazine based mechanic instead. RACs should be able to fire nonstop until their magazine empties. Then they should go on cooldown to reload a new magazine. Each magazine would be either 0.5 or 1 ton of ammo.

That would fix both UACs and RACs.

Edited by Khobai, 28 May 2018 - 09:44 AM.

[Metus regem]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

Doesn't UAC get disabled permanently in TT if they jam? Then even 2.8% sounds high.

Yup, but the odds of rolling 2 on 2D6 is pretty low... it also helps reinforce the risk vs reward nature of UAC/s in TT.

I mean I've had some glorious things happen becuase of a timely double tap... During one campaign where we played CLan pilots, my character was a Star Captain with a blood name thanks to his Ebon Jaguar A getting a timely double tap on that cUAC/20 in CQB against a Dire Wolf.

[Metus regem]

NaniCat, on 28 May 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

Yes, but on TT I believe it permanently disabled the weapon system, so having a low jam chance made sense. I don't really care for the lore, or other versions of giant robot stompy games. Much of the TT content doesn't translate well to a FPS environment. so I don't really know what the point of using it, or the lore as a reference for balance here is accomplishing.

Lore and TT rules are two different things really.

Lore = the AC/20 on the Victor's arm is a Pontiac 100 that fires 100 40mm shells in a burst.

TT Rule = the AC/20 on the Victor's arm does 20 points of damage to one location.


I'm all for TT rules changing to something that works in a different game setting, but I would like to keep lore as close as possible, as with out the lore we might as well be playing a generic robot game.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 28 May 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

Doubletapping sooner than 0.5s does not increase the jam rate.

However the jam rate on UACs is way too high. 16% jam is miserable.

17% for CUACs, 15% for IS UACs.

[Noey Bunny]

Khobai, on 28 May 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

Doubletapping sooner than 0.5s does not increase the jam rate.

However the jam rate on UACs is way too high. 16% jam is miserable.



Either way RNG jamming is a bad mechanic. UACs should not randomly jam at all.

Instead UACs should have a jam bar like RACs do. When the jam bar fills up they should jam 100% of the time.

and I think RACs should switch to a magazine based mechanic instead. RACs should be able to fire nonstop until their magazine empties. Then they should go on cooldown to reload a new magazine. Each magazine would be either 0.5 or 1 ton of ammo.

That would fix both UACs and RACs.

I don't know if I necessarily agree, but I don't really have a vision for those kind of changes, I'd be far too concerned with a 2xcUAC/10+2xcUAC/5 goon having an easy, consistent double tap mechanic for 60/70 PPFLD over a 2.5-2.8 second period of time. or 2xcUAC/20 on chain fire for 80 damage up front. I feel that 17% is in a good place, I use 1x cUAC/20+6cSPL on my EBJ, and it wrecks shop already, the jam chance 'keeps me honest' in many ways. though, this is just my opinion, and there's more to balance than any one believer could propose.

Metus regem, on 28 May 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

Lore and TT rules are two different things really.

Lore = the AC/20 on the Victor's arm is a Pontiac 100 that fires 100 40mm shells in a burst.

TT Rule = the AC/20 on the Victor's arm does 20 points of damage to one location.


I'm all for TT rules changing to something that works in a different game setting, but I would like to keep lore as close as possible, as with out the lore we might as well be playing a generic robot game.

Sure, I understand that, but this is about mechanics, not rules or lore, I don't necessarily feel the mechanics we have now are up to snuff to represent the differences between weapon systems. What with Clan AC's being all but useless, getting the poor end of the stick with burst fire AND ghost heat issues. (2 cAC-20's would be nice but they incur the same kind of ghost heat penalty that cUAC/20's do).

Only, the jam chance is something of a necessary evil, whether we like it or not, it achieves results that are difficult to produce otherwise.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 28 May 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

Pretty sure I can. As a matter of fact, I did double tap my CUAC10s in the last FP match within 0.5 seconds. As for increased jam % if you fire within 0.5 second, how did you come to that conclusion? Cause CUAC10 has 2.5 second cooldown so if you click before the time's up you will get 17 jam %, doesn't matter if you clicked within 0.5 second or not.

cUAC/10 already take 0.22 seconds to fire, so you are compelled to wait at least another 0.28, which explains your experience. You cannot fire before 0.5 seconds have passed from the beginning of the shot. If this were not true, you would still be able to self-ghost with a UAC/20 like when they were new...and you cannot.

As for the latter conclusion, seat of the pants. I make no claim that that part is solid fact, but I did an informal experiment last night with my twin UAC/10 Nightstar across 10 or so matches. Firing too slow: jammed 100% of the time in a match. Firing too fast: jammed 100% of the time during the match. If I hit the double tap bang on the half-mark as indicated on the HUD, it only rarely jammed. There is no way jam chance is based on a purely uniform distribution.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 28 May 2018 - 10:12 AM.

[Metus regem]

NaniCat, on 28 May 2018 - 09:56 AM, said:

Sure, I understand that, but this is about mechanics, not rules or lore, I don't necessarily feel the mechanics we have now are up to snuff to represent the differences between weapon systems. What with Clan AC's being all but useless, getting the poor end of the stick with burst fire AND ghost heat issues. (2 cAC-20's would be nice but they incur the same kind of ghost heat penalty that cUAC/20's do).

Only, the jam chance is something of a necessary evil, whether we like it or not, it achieves results that are difficult to produce otherwise.

We agree that the mechanics of MWO don't work right. I've talke with Russ and several staff members at PGI about possible work arounds for some of the mechanical issues that MWO sees by trying to stick to the TT rules of Crits, tonnage and damage. None of these things work with the mechanics we have, like our pixel perfect weapon precision. On top of most weapons in the game doing their TT rated damage in some cases 8 times over the same time span for a TT turn (MWO RoF vs TT RoF). How ever when I've had these discussions both in messages and in person, it never goes anywhere or it leads to bad mechanics like Ghost Heat or worse.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not against the jam chance, I just think the probability of it happening is too high right now considering the RoF we see on a UAC/20. For example with the RNJeuses on your side, you could in theory fire that UAC/20 4 times in ten seconds, that's a possible 80 damage in the same time it could do 40 damage in TT. Taking into the account of double the RoF, I could see the UAC/20 getting a 6-7% jam chance.. maybe as high as 10%, not the 17% chance it currently has. That is my issue, a 17% jam chance on a weapon that is used in CQB is not a good way to balance it, against faster firing, cooler weapons that do not have a jam chance.