16 replies to this topic

[RoBroCop]

I loaded up my Trebuchet 7M with an MRM 30 and two MRM 10s, rather than 30 + 20 to save one ton. The downside of this is naturally using one more hardpoint along with additional heat. [color=#222222]The builds have the same DPS.[/color]

MRM 30 + 20 generates 9.5 + 6 = 15.5 heat alpha
MRM 30 + 10 + 10 generates 9.5 + 4 + 4 = 17.5 heat alpha (excluding ghost heat)

That is approximately 13 % more heat with the 30+10+10 build, which weighs about 6 % less.

I was fine with this trade-off but I noticed that 30+10+10 generates ghost heat when all launchers are fired together. I believe the ghost heat is an additional 3, which makes the heat generation for my build 32 % higher than the 30 + 20 build (20.5 compared to 15.5).

This ghost heat penalty appears unreasonable to me. Consider that you can mount MRM 30 + 30, or the aforementioned 30 + 20 build without incurring ghost heat.

I would suggest that the GH penalty should be applied on the basis of how many missiles you spew in your alpha strike, not the amount of launchers you fire.

Am I missing something that makes the current system reasonable?

[Haipyng]

MRM, SRM and RLs are in a linked group for heat. The MRM 30 allows for 2 to be fired without penalty. You are firing three weapons as part of that group. (the two MRM 10s + the 30) and so incur the wrath of the ghost heat specter.

Edited by Haipyng, 30 May 2018 - 11:15 AM.

[Xetelian]

It doesn't make much sense.

Same amount of missiles but costs much more heat.

[Tranderas]

No. Heat doesn't work like that in the real world and it shouldn't in the game.

It isn't a linear equation of X missile generates Y heat. There's an X base for the size of the container required to hold the missiles, because if you're firing even one, you generate a certain amount of stress on the thing holding in that blast regardless. So instead of being linear, there's thresholds, similar to the damage thresholds at the ranges on MRMs.

So essentially, the more containers- the more launchers- the more plateaus in heat you get. Less launchers spread less strain overall across the entire system ("the system" here being defined as the mech carrying the launchers) and thus should carry lower penalties.

[Haipyng]

Ghost Heat is nothing but a tool PGI uses to attempt balance in the game. Trying to apply any physics or deep logic to it is going to give you a headache.

[Lt Blackthorn]

If you want to put MRMs on a Treb 7M, go for MRM60. Two MRM30s (one in each side torso), an XL 255, strip the arms, get a minimum of five tons of ammo, and fill the rest of the weight with JJs.

What you are doing is not only inefficient in terms of heat, it's putting out subpar damage. I guarantee this build is superior to whatever you are futzing around with in your mechlab at the moment that involves only 50 missile tubes.

And by the way, the ghost heat in your example is the price you pay for having more of the smaller, more weight efficient MRM10s. Ghost heat has nothing to do with tubes. It has everything to do with the number of weapons of a given type and size fired simultaneously. Each MRM type is balanced around this fact.

Edited by Lt Blackthorn, 30 May 2018 - 11:36 AM.

[Prototelis]

Haipyng, on 30 May 2018 - 11:19 AM, said:

Ghost Heat is nothing but a tool PGI uses to attempt balance in the game. Trying to apply any physics or deep logic to it is going to give you a headache.

PGI did not invent thermal runaway, they just don't implement it in a way that makes sense.

[LordNothing]

the morale of this story: use a 40.

[LordNothing]

Xetelian, on 30 May 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

It doesn't make much sense.

Same amount of missiles but costs much more heat.

ghost heat always was an arbitrary mess. it was part of the reason for power draw, to make it less arbitrary. of course pgi screwed that up so we got ghost heat. yay!

remember that dh/dt gauge from mechwarrior 2? we should base heat penalties off something like that. it really just measures changes in heat over time so if you produce a lot of heat in a short amount of time its higher, than if you produce a small amount of heat less frequently. produce no heat and it trends to zero. just map that gauge to a heat multiplier. or to a power curve (x^-2) with the elbow at the thermal equivalent of about 30 damage. then when something over performs rather than the broad sweeping changes to gh groups, you can just target individual weapon heat values.

Edited by LordNothing, 30 May 2018 - 12:41 PM.

[Bud Crue]

In theory I see the semblance of reason for why they impose the GH on the MRMs the way they do. Save tonnage at the cost of extra heat. So be it. Problem is that this irrationally punishes mechs that lack the crit space to use the ideal combinations of weapons (2 30s, etc) but have the hard points to mount the less desirable combinations.

See for example a Zeus which can't run 2 30s, but can do 3 20s to avoid the GH but at a cost of extra ton of weight, or a 30 a 20 and 10 for the same tonnage as 2 30s but is punished with GH (or a 40 and 2 10s). See also the Quickdraw 4H with even worse limitations. There are others, and it always seems to give a feeling of "hey lets punish sub-meta mechs even more" with this kind of stuff. Meh. Just anther example of PGI being PGI.

[Andi Nagasia]

LordNothing, on 30 May 2018 - 12:21 PM, said:

the morale of this story: use a 40.

well a 40 + 10 would only be 15.5heat(17 with GH) but weigh only 15Tons(1ton less) so throw in another DHS,

[LordNothing]

Andi Nagasia, on 30 May 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

well a 40 + 10 would only be 15.5heat(17 with GH) but weigh only 15Tons(1ton less) so throw in another DHS,

usually just a single 40 is enough firepower for me and you never notice the heat. only time id run more than one mrm is if its the bulk of my firepower and dont want a cleaved torso to terminate my missile spam. if i also want to run an autocannon or a bunch of lasers the 40 is perfect.

i dont really like pure mrm boats though. they put out massive damage but their inability to exploit an open section often deprives me of the coup de grace and despite having good scores i seldom live to the end of the match. now as part of a mixed build its great. ride the low heat weapons until an opening is revealed and then focus your lasers or double tap your uac on the open segment. this is why my mrm40+uac20 misery is so brutally effective. i just bought a bansh 3s for the same reason (a mech i sold prior to skill trees because at the time you could only put an lrm20 in there).

[Y E O N N E]

LordNothing, on 30 May 2018 - 12:21 PM, said:

the morale of this story: use a 40.

That's depressing.

[LordNothing]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 May 2018 - 03:53 PM, said:

That's depressing.

yes, yes it is. blame the american school system, reality shows, and the internet.

[El Bandito]

RoBroCop, on 30 May 2018 - 11:02 AM, said:

I loaded up my Trebuchet 7M with an MRM 30 and two MRM 10s, rather than 30 + 20 to save one ton. The downside of this is naturally using one more hardpoint along with additional heat. The builds have the same DPS.

MRM 30 + 20 generates 9.5 + 6 = 15.5 heat alpha
MRM 30 + 10 + 10 generates 9.5 + 4 + 4 = 17.5 heat alpha (excluding ghost heat)

That is approximately 13 % more heat with the 30+10+10 build, which weighs about 6 % less.

Both mediocre builds. Use 2xMRM30 with XL engine.

[yrrot]

That is a bit goofy. The logic here is that PGI made it so whenever you fire a group of weapons in a GH group, your GH is based on the hottest weapon. You can fire 4 MRM 10s without GH, but if you swap one of them for a 30, you get the GH penalty that would be applied to 4 30s. While it is a little weird in the case OP presents, it's PGI's solution to prevent folks from boating mix/match builds that get around GH penalties.

[Khobai]

ghost heat limit on MRM10s should be x6

because ghost heat allows both MRM20x3 and MRM30x2