I dont post, but in this case, I will make an exception.
Your divisions suck balls.
What possessed you to allow assaults in a list full of mediums? Division 3, how is king crab fair against a stormcrow, or a nova?
Every single division you have, heaviest mechs are the top 10. Period.
garbage system that pushes everyone to use 3-4 mechs and exclude all others. Pure garbage.
And by the way, all the long-range weapons are useless on these tiny-*** maps. I happen to like LRMs, ATMs, PPC's. But noo, if you want to win - SRMs, autocannons, and maybe some pulses.
Great job, excluding 2/3 of all weapon systems from gameplay. Brilliant.
I am not playing solaris until you make it so that i can play something more then king crab or kodiak, if I want to win even a few times, thanks.
Play against your powergamers in king crabs packing maximum DPS yourselves.
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Divisions And Maps Are Garbage.
Started by VladK02, Apr 20 2018 05:45 PM
21 replies to this topic
#2
Posted 20 April 2018 - 05:50 PM
I mean, I agree that the sorting is off. How is a medium realistically supposed to deal with assaults in a one on one scenario? For the average player, it's basically a death sentence dropping in something lighter than a KGC in Div 3, for example.
Hell, even for me it's a struggle. But, than again, I like the challenge. Even knowing full well it is suicidal and likely to fail, I like the challenge of using a mech that really aught to be in Division 4 against mechs more than twice its weight and three times its health points - and still winning.
As of yet, no assault mech has yet to defeat my SHC in 1v1 Div3, but I am working 100x harder than they are. They can delete me with one good hit, while I'm forced to kill them with, essentially, papercuts. It might be rewarding to pull off a win, but it absolutely does not feel like some of these mechs are in the right divisions.
Hell, even for me it's a struggle. But, than again, I like the challenge. Even knowing full well it is suicidal and likely to fail, I like the challenge of using a mech that really aught to be in Division 4 against mechs more than twice its weight and three times its health points - and still winning.
As of yet, no assault mech has yet to defeat my SHC in 1v1 Div3, but I am working 100x harder than they are. They can delete me with one good hit, while I'm forced to kill them with, essentially, papercuts. It might be rewarding to pull off a win, but it absolutely does not feel like some of these mechs are in the right divisions.
#3
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 05:56 PM
I agree that the divisions need a rework. I know they said they wouldn't change them until the end of the season. But 3 months a long time.
I don't quite agree on the maps. I think they have a good amount of cover and elevated positions to keep things interesting.
I don't quite agree on the maps. I think they have a good amount of cover and elevated positions to keep things interesting.
#4
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 06:10 PM
Even if you sorted by weight classes/tonnage, almost always the heaviest mechs are going to be the top ones. It's just shifting the yard stick to another spot.
LRMs are pretty much useless everywhere, its not that surprising they'd be just as useless in 1v1 - and would be regardless of the map size.
Long range meta rules almost the entire rest of the game, don't really feel bad about it not being that great in one spot - but there's people that are still successful running LL and PPCs as well, so I actually feel less bad about it since skill can mitigate it to some degree.
Would like to see way more map options though, and possibly slightly larger cross-sections of some of those options using the un-used portions and base spots from the QP and FW maps.
LRMs are pretty much useless everywhere, its not that surprising they'd be just as useless in 1v1 - and would be regardless of the map size.
Long range meta rules almost the entire rest of the game, don't really feel bad about it not being that great in one spot - but there's people that are still successful running LL and PPCs as well, so I actually feel less bad about it since skill can mitigate it to some degree.
Would like to see way more map options though, and possibly slightly larger cross-sections of some of those options using the un-used portions and base spots from the QP and FW maps.
#5
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 06:26 PM
Bluntly there's not really a way to sort both by tonnage and utility without creating so many different queues that nobody gets matches.
Which is why it should have been predominantly tonnage-based to begin with, because at least that way the non-top 3/4 in a division are still close enough to stand a chance if the meat is good.
Which is why it should have been predominantly tonnage-based to begin with, because at least that way the non-top 3/4 in a division are still close enough to stand a chance if the meat is good.
#6
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 06:32 PM
PGI's approach is stupid from the beginning.
They cant balance mechs and weapons because those are inherently unbalanced.
Trying to squeeze mechs into tiers or divisions, just accentuates the problem.
Instead, they should have done what other games are doing - point-by-point customization.
Mech frames are free, you choose by looks and hardpoint allocations.
Every point of armor you add costs you some C-bills and adds value to the mech.
Every weapon you strap on costs you C-bills and adds value to the mech.
Weapon systems are also customizable - more or less damage, lock times, range, etc - within reason. Weapons have base stats and you can modily by up to 50% in either direction. Like in warframe, you can mod your weapons. Every tweak to weapons costs you c-bills and adds or removes value from your mech.
Everything is customizable, from heat capacity, to turning arcs to jump jet thrust - everything is moddable, everything either adds or removes value to a mech frame.
Its Solaris after all, with best engineer teams in the galaxy. You bet your arse they can mod a standard mech frame to perform miles ahead of the factory default.
Divisions are then sorted by total mech value. You can run a cheap atlas with no armor and 1 small laser, and be on par with a locust. Fair. Or you can load it up to the hilt and go vs other monsters. Differences in values apply a buff or a debuff to weapon/mech performance.
Like in warhammer when you are building your army - you want shields on your unit of swordsmen? Make them tankier? OK. 1 point per model extra. And your army becomes more expensive in points.
Would have been a much better system. Would force you to think about adding maximum armor to legs, or keeping some armor off, so your mech does not jump up the division ladder.
They cant balance mechs and weapons because those are inherently unbalanced.
Trying to squeeze mechs into tiers or divisions, just accentuates the problem.
Instead, they should have done what other games are doing - point-by-point customization.
Mech frames are free, you choose by looks and hardpoint allocations.
Every point of armor you add costs you some C-bills and adds value to the mech.
Every weapon you strap on costs you C-bills and adds value to the mech.
Weapon systems are also customizable - more or less damage, lock times, range, etc - within reason. Weapons have base stats and you can modily by up to 50% in either direction. Like in warframe, you can mod your weapons. Every tweak to weapons costs you c-bills and adds or removes value from your mech.
Everything is customizable, from heat capacity, to turning arcs to jump jet thrust - everything is moddable, everything either adds or removes value to a mech frame.
Its Solaris after all, with best engineer teams in the galaxy. You bet your arse they can mod a standard mech frame to perform miles ahead of the factory default.
Divisions are then sorted by total mech value. You can run a cheap atlas with no armor and 1 small laser, and be on par with a locust. Fair. Or you can load it up to the hilt and go vs other monsters. Differences in values apply a buff or a debuff to weapon/mech performance.
Like in warhammer when you are building your army - you want shields on your unit of swordsmen? Make them tankier? OK. 1 point per model extra. And your army becomes more expensive in points.
Would have been a much better system. Would force you to think about adding maximum armor to legs, or keeping some armor off, so your mech does not jump up the division ladder.
Edited by VladK02, 20 April 2018 - 06:46 PM.
#7
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- The Messenger
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 06:41 PM
VladK02, on 20 April 2018 - 06:32 PM, said:
PGI's approach is stupid from the beginning.
They cant balance mechs and weapons because those are inherently unbalanced.
Trying to squeeze mechs into tiers or divisions, just accentuates the problem.
Instead, they should have done what other games are doing - point-by-point customization.
Mech frames are free, you choose by looks and hardpoint allocations.
Every point of armor you add costs you some C-bills and adds value to the mech.
Every weapon you strap on costs you C-bills and adds value to the mech.
Weapon systems are also customizable - more or less damage, lock times, range, etc - within reason. Weapons have base stats and you can modily by up to 50% in either direction. Like in warframe, you can mod your weapons. Every tweak to weapons costs you c-bills and adds or removes value from your mech.
Divisions are then sorted by total mech value. You can run a cheap atlas with no armor and 1 small laser, and be on par with a locust. Fair. Or you can load it up to the hilt and go vs other monsters. Differences in values apply a buff or a debuff to weapon/mech performance.
Like in warhammer when you are building your army - you want shields on your unit of swordsmen? Make them tankier? OK. 1 point per model extra. And your army becomes more expensive in points.
Would have been a much better system. Would force you to think about adding maximum armor to legs, or keeping some armor off, so your mech does not jump up the division ladder.
They cant balance mechs and weapons because those are inherently unbalanced.
Trying to squeeze mechs into tiers or divisions, just accentuates the problem.
Instead, they should have done what other games are doing - point-by-point customization.
Mech frames are free, you choose by looks and hardpoint allocations.
Every point of armor you add costs you some C-bills and adds value to the mech.
Every weapon you strap on costs you C-bills and adds value to the mech.
Weapon systems are also customizable - more or less damage, lock times, range, etc - within reason. Weapons have base stats and you can modily by up to 50% in either direction. Like in warframe, you can mod your weapons. Every tweak to weapons costs you c-bills and adds or removes value from your mech.
Divisions are then sorted by total mech value. You can run a cheap atlas with no armor and 1 small laser, and be on par with a locust. Fair. Or you can load it up to the hilt and go vs other monsters. Differences in values apply a buff or a debuff to weapon/mech performance.
Like in warhammer when you are building your army - you want shields on your unit of swordsmen? Make them tankier? OK. 1 point per model extra. And your army becomes more expensive in points.
Would have been a much better system. Would force you to think about adding maximum armor to legs, or keeping some armor off, so your mech does not jump up the division ladder.
No it wouldn't, it would be a **** show.
Divisions need some tweaking for sure. I have zero problem with inbalance between tonnage in a division though. Some mechs just aren't as powerful as even other variants of the same chassis, much less weight.
#8
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 06:52 PM
DFM, on 20 April 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:
No it wouldn't, it would be a **** show.
Divisions need some tweaking for sure. I have zero problem with inbalance between tonnage in a division though. Some mechs just aren't as powerful as even other variants of the same chassis, much less weight.
Why would it be a shiteshow? Build your mech how you want, build your weapons how you want, when you go into a match, the info card will tell your opponent roughly how you focused on your mech - where the value lies disproportionately and where it is lacking. Agility - Strong, Weapons - Weak, Armor - Average, that sort of thing.
It would be better then it is now. No amount of division tweaking will hide the fact that mechs are unbalanced from the start. If you sort by tonnage to make it fair, you will have like 14 divisions, too many ques, nobody will play.
#9
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- The Tracker
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 07:21 PM
This was over on the suggestions forum. Honestly, it sounded like a much better place to start than what we have. Certain mechs that are stronger than others for their weight or weaker could be moved up and down a bit for their tonnage, accordingly. It completely tosses out the Piranha vs Atlas dancing crap show match type.
Eisenhorne, on 19 April 2018 - 08:16 AM, said:
I put this before in another thread, but here's as good as any. They need to divide the divisions by weight classes, not by Chassis performance. There will be standouts at any division they draw, but at least this way you won't have good mechs (in their weight class) being shut down by worse mechs from significantly heavier weight classes (huntsmen vs annihilators is just silly).
We should keep it at 7 divisions, since PGI's UI already has 7 divisions making any more or less would probably be a lot of work for them. I propose the following weight classes:
Light: 20-30 tons
Light Medium: 35 - 40 tons
Medium: 45-50 tons
Medium-Heavy: 50-60 tons
Heavy: 65-70 tons
Heavy-Assault: 75-85 tons
Assault: 90-100 tons
Yes, there will be obvious standouts in each category, but at least there won't be any obviously gross mismatches.
We should keep it at 7 divisions, since PGI's UI already has 7 divisions making any more or less would probably be a lot of work for them. I propose the following weight classes:
Light: 20-30 tons
Light Medium: 35 - 40 tons
Medium: 45-50 tons
Medium-Heavy: 50-60 tons
Heavy: 65-70 tons
Heavy-Assault: 75-85 tons
Assault: 90-100 tons
Yes, there will be obvious standouts in each category, but at least there won't be any obviously gross mismatches.
#10
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 07:25 PM
Some heavy and assault mechs suck balls
There's no other way to put it
RIP Zeus
You were destroyed by a mech half your weight
GGclose
HGNs, now brawling those in a Viper was tooth and nail, and is closer to 50/50
It weights less than half, yet competes fairly well.
Now, what I REALLY want is a Black Lanner
All the DPS of my Viper, with more HP and MORE SPEED, just without the 4 tons of jumps
Makes me wanna REEE
There's no other way to put it
RIP Zeus
You were destroyed by a mech half your weight
GGclose
HGNs, now brawling those in a Viper was tooth and nail, and is closer to 50/50
It weights less than half, yet competes fairly well.
Now, what I REALLY want is a Black Lanner
All the DPS of my Viper, with more HP and MORE SPEED, just without the 4 tons of jumps
Makes me wanna REEE
#11
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 07:27 PM
It would be relatively easier I guess if matches are based on the rating of the chassis and the matchmaker does its thing. Match the closest ratings and the closest SSR if that matters - so if a light wins a heavy, he gets a standing ovation, if he loses, he has nothing to lose since it was a nasty setup anyway.
Otherwise Duncan Fisher is probably always going to say the match is going either way.
Otherwise Duncan Fisher is probably always going to say the match is going either way.
#12
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 07:41 PM
Trolol OP. Your glorified bv system would just move the goal posts. Eventually a new optimum build would be found for each division. In a duelist setting that will always be the case.
#13
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 08:00 PM
Mcgral18, on 20 April 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:
Some heavy and assault mechs suck balls
There's no other way to put it
RIP Zeus
You were destroyed by a mech half your weight
GGclose
HGNs, now brawling those in a Viper was tooth and nail, and is closer to 50/50
It weights less than half, yet competes fairly well.
Now, what I REALLY want is a Black Lanner
All the DPS of my Viper, with more HP and MORE SPEED, just without the 4 tons of jumps
Makes me wanna REEE
There's no other way to put it
RIP Zeus
You were destroyed by a mech half your weight
GGclose
HGNs, now brawling those in a Viper was tooth and nail, and is closer to 50/50
It weights less than half, yet competes fairly well.
Now, what I REALLY want is a Black Lanner
All the DPS of my Viper, with more HP and MORE SPEED, just without the 4 tons of jumps
Makes me wanna REEE
I dunno, some of the zeus builds are super strong in that division. I've taken a bunch down with the viper but its tough if they back up to a wall
#14
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 08:02 PM
Hazeclaw, on 20 April 2018 - 08:00 PM, said:
I dunno, some of the zeus builds are super strong in that division. I've taken a bunch down with the viper but its tough if they back up to a wall
Honestly, I just face tanked until I reached heat cap
They were usually missing an ST by that point
Forward/rearward movement to spread some damage, but with 15 DPS, it doesn't take long to remove something
I made the mistake of sticking around after hitting heat cap...losing 20 points hurts
Missing 2/3rds of your DPS hurts
#15
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 08:06 PM
the divisions are bad
bushwhackers in the same division as king crabs?
who came up with that? lol
bushwhackers in the same division as king crabs?
who came up with that? lol
#16
Posted 20 April 2018 - 08:35 PM
Khobai, on 20 April 2018 - 08:06 PM, said:
the divisions are bad
bushwhackers in the same division as king crabs?
who came up with that? lol
bushwhackers in the same division as king crabs?
who came up with that? lol
Agreed, but at this point I'm just looking at the King Crabs and thinking "I'm not locked in here with you.... You are locked in here with me!"
I require a King Crab kill counter on one of my SHC's monitors, at this point....
#17
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Posted 20 April 2018 - 09:03 PM
The Divisions need work, obviously. Sort by weight all you want, though, the issue is going to be nearly the same: One, maybe two chassis per weight class being viable. Sort by weight and watch the KGC go back to being the horrible pick it is in other game modes, for example. There's really no solution to that, Battletech just doesn't offer much of a base to build a perfectly balanced game from.
Now, regarding the maps, I wholeheartedly disagree. Yes, long range isn't the way to go. Good thing, IMHO. FW, QP, GQ - you're usually not only fine bringing long range weapons, you're usually better off for it. LBX and SRMs being the go-to for once is a good thing in my book.
Now, regarding the maps, I wholeheartedly disagree. Yes, long range isn't the way to go. Good thing, IMHO. FW, QP, GQ - you're usually not only fine bringing long range weapons, you're usually better off for it. LBX and SRMs being the go-to for once is a good thing in my book.
#18
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Posted 13 June 2018 - 12:13 AM
VladK02, on 20 April 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:
I dont post, but in this case, I will make an exception.
Your divisions suck balls.
What possessed you to allow assaults in a list full of mediums? Division 3, how is king crab fair against a stormcrow, or a nova?
Every single division you have, heaviest mechs are the top 10. Period.
garbage system that pushes everyone to use 3-4 mechs and exclude all others. Pure garbage.
And by the way, all the long-range weapons are useless on these tiny-*** maps. I happen to like LRMs, ATMs, PPC's. But noo, if you want to win - SRMs, autocannons, and maybe some pulses.
Great job, excluding 2/3 of all weapon systems from gameplay. Brilliant.
I am not playing solaris until you make it so that i can play something more then king crab or kodiak, if I want to win even a few times, thanks.
Play against your powergamers in king crabs packing maximum DPS yourselves.
Your divisions suck balls.
What possessed you to allow assaults in a list full of mediums? Division 3, how is king crab fair against a stormcrow, or a nova?
Every single division you have, heaviest mechs are the top 10. Period.
garbage system that pushes everyone to use 3-4 mechs and exclude all others. Pure garbage.
And by the way, all the long-range weapons are useless on these tiny-*** maps. I happen to like LRMs, ATMs, PPC's. But noo, if you want to win - SRMs, autocannons, and maybe some pulses.
Great job, excluding 2/3 of all weapon systems from gameplay. Brilliant.
I am not playing solaris until you make it so that i can play something more then king crab or kodiak, if I want to win even a few times, thanks.
Play against your powergamers in king crabs packing maximum DPS yourselves.
Last time I check I was ranked 4th in Division 3 and I've always use a Bushwacker dual UAC10.
https://www.mechspec...10-xl280.14263/
Also, in the top 10 there is still a Shadow Cat dual ERPPC, ECM and NARC.
To answer your question: yes, divisions needs a rework (some mechs doesn't actually stand a chance) but hell no, if you are skilled enough, actually fit a competitive build and you know what you are doing to counter an enemy build you can kill bigger, tougher or more DPS oriented threats easy peasy.
Another example is division 1: right now the meta is Annihilator 6xAC2 + ERMLs, but the 1st is using an artic wolf SRM boat... Simply put, if you are DPS oriented you should try to keep shooting as long as you can. If you are alpha strike oriented, you want to minimize exposure, just like you would do in quickplay. Dual UAC10 grants both options.
Some weapon systems are inherently garbage in solaris, like LRMs: no one is gonna hold locks for you or pin the target down so you can farm it or flank it to deny him cover. Anything with a minimum range is risky and I'm not willing to play a huge arena, running, hiding and chasing only because someone decided to fit a kiting troll build that requires to point in my general direction and hold the trigger. Just saying.
TL;DR version: divisions need a partial rework, but is false and pretentious to say only the heaviest mechs in each division will win. Git gud and drop with builds made on purpose for Solaris: quick play builds are not optimal most of the times.
Edited by CarloArmato, 13 June 2018 - 12:17 AM.
#19
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- Nova Captain
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Posted 13 June 2018 - 05:29 AM
It's early in this thread's life and I notice some of the big pundit's names have not commented?? I guess, the "farming" is so rich for them that they don't want to upset the apple cart....
Divisions IMO should be organized as in the older version of MW: by weight until the Open FFA are scheduled. Fight by weight class and then have a FFA for those whom need to crow.
Divisions IMO should be organized as in the older version of MW: by weight until the Open FFA are scheduled. Fight by weight class and then have a FFA for those whom need to crow.
#20
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- Bad Company
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Posted 13 June 2018 - 06:25 AM
VladK02, on 20 April 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:
I dont post, but in this case, I will make an exception.
Your divisions suck balls.
What possessed you to allow assaults in a list full of mediums? Division 3, how is king crab fair against a stormcrow, or a nova?
Every single division you have, heaviest mechs are the top 10. Period.
garbage system that pushes everyone to use 3-4 mechs and exclude all others. Pure garbage.
And by the way, all the long-range weapons are useless on these tiny-*** maps. I happen to like LRMs, ATMs, PPC's. But noo, if you want to win - SRMs, autocannons, and maybe some pulses.
Great job, excluding 2/3 of all weapon systems from gameplay. Brilliant.
I am not playing solaris until you make it so that i can play something more then king crab or kodiak, if I want to win even a few times, thanks.
Play against your powergamers in king crabs packing maximum DPS yourselves.
Your divisions suck balls.
What possessed you to allow assaults in a list full of mediums? Division 3, how is king crab fair against a stormcrow, or a nova?
Every single division you have, heaviest mechs are the top 10. Period.
garbage system that pushes everyone to use 3-4 mechs and exclude all others. Pure garbage.
And by the way, all the long-range weapons are useless on these tiny-*** maps. I happen to like LRMs, ATMs, PPC's. But noo, if you want to win - SRMs, autocannons, and maybe some pulses.
Great job, excluding 2/3 of all weapon systems from gameplay. Brilliant.
I am not playing solaris until you make it so that i can play something more then king crab or kodiak, if I want to win even a few times, thanks.
Play against your powergamers in king crabs packing maximum DPS yourselves.
Pitting tiny mechs vs fat, armored mosnters.....isnt the problem.
The problem was and is and prolly always will be is the inability of mobile mechs to use their speed to effectively disengage and use speed and terrain to their advantage.
As such, it is a close quarter brawl, heavily favoring any and all heavily armored brawlers that can even take the slowest possible engines and still stay in range and vision in most cases.
Thats why solaris sucks.
Its too one dimensional.
Exactly what I feared it would be.
Its the maps.
Not light or mediums vs assaults. Thats okay.
its the maps. That killed solaris.
For me at least.
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