19 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

Champion/Trial mechs are generally built in such a way that if they're put on rotation that a new player or a player without a particular mech can try them out, right?

BSW-S2(C)

This BSW has its tonnage on its deadside taken away from a single rating on its engine for a 10th internal DHS. It has only 10 shots of ammo, something a new player is going to run out of very quickly and to little effect without disciplined aiming.


I left the ammo the same and made a couple small changes.
BSW-S2(C)

Can you spot the differences? I'll be the first to tell you I am no meta canary, I cannot go into the mine and sniff out the gas (and die) to mark the meta, but even I can make a small improvement on this horrible build.

RGH-1A(C)

This build....I mean this build...its hard to pick a part of this to begin on.
1. 10 shots of ammo for both major weapons
2. 10 armor for your useless machine guns makes them even more useless
3. 225 (56kph) engine in a heavy mech to justify bringing a bad weapon

RGH-1A(C)

Just taking off the useless heavy machine guns gives you a normal speed for a IS heavy if you want to pack on that LBX20.

RGH-1A(C)

Or you can switch to a reasonable AC20 and go faster, carry more ammo and have more internal DHS.

These aren't builds I'd actually take I'm just showing you what a few simple changes can do to make life easier for a new player when these mechs go on rotation.


NSR-9P(C)

Not the worst I've seen so far. I do think it'd be more effective with 4xUAC5 instead of UAC10/5 because it would then have the slots and tonnage to fit a faster engine as a new player to this size of mech would have a lot more trouble at 46 KPH than at 55.

NSR-9P(C)

Runs cooler, and has lots of ammo for missing shots and outside optimal shots.




Maybe I'm being unreasonable, maybe the builds that I am critical of are fine and I'm just terrible, but I don't think it is unreasonable to take more time and put more care into building these mechs if new players are going to try them out or if unfamiliar players are testing them out.

Can we build by committee? Can we get a dedicated team of optimizers to help update previous champions and make new ones? Hell I know plenty that would volunteer their time for free and can make mech builds that are decent enough for a new player to try.

[FupDup]

72 kph mediums and 56 kph heavies...these "champion" builds were made by potatoes for potatoes.

[NaturalBornGriller]

Also it might be handy to throw a few trial SP on them to make them more middle of the road. Terrible build with no SP = worst mech on your team

[Xetelian]

Well do they want new players to stick around? Do they want to sell these champion mechs? 30% XP isn't all that big of a draw for a mech that is built like crap and you need to re-fit to work it.


What does their balance team think about these mechs? Does Paul want to pilot a 53kph roughneck? Does Chris?

Its bad enough they don't advertise this game, but on top of that the game play experience they're offering new players is abysmal.

[IllCaesar]

Another effect of changing the Nightstar to all UAC5s is that the player only has to balance one weapon type. There's a lot of differences betwwen the UAC5 and the UAC10 - range, cooldown, velocity, heat, the fact that the UAC5 fires one projectile while the UAC10 fires two, and possibly most importantly the ammo fed to the weapon. Just looking at the build you can see that ammo isn't distributed in an entirely sensical manner. If a aplayer loses their right arm as a shield there goes the ammo for their UAC10 on their torsos. Simplifying ammo types means that you don't have to worry about placing ammo here or there in case whatever component goes first.

Edit: Looking at the champions you can see that some are terribly out of date.

The Centurion champion uses a STD engine and while the Cent does have zombie potential the one there is really just underpowered with only two medium lasers and one AC10. It isn't a terrible one but it can be argued that upgrading to a LFE to increase it's payload is the right call.

The champion Kintaro is worse than the Trebuchet champion and doesn't utilize it's hardpoints well. I think that there should be LRMboat champions but the Kintaro is just inferior in that role. Redundancy maybe?

The Wolverine champion isn't bad but it triggers ghost heat with it's right arm armament.

While the champion Catapult A1 has slightly better torso quirks it has worse heat gen and missile cooldown quirks than the C4 which can run the same build. I would thing that firing rapidly and managing heat is more important to a new player than the torso twisting.

The champion Jagermech, which is entirely dependant on ammo, can fit an extra ton of ammo by reducing the gauss ammo stacks to full tons, equipping the Light Ferro that didn't exist when it was designed, and stripping a tiny bit of armour from the cockpit.

The trial Orion isn't bad but it shows it's age by using ASRM4s and a STD engine. It has pitiful effective range but by upgrading the STD300 to a LFE300 you can replace the ASRM4s with an MRM30 with 2.5 tons of ammo, enough for 25 shots and doubling the effective range of it's loadout.

The trial Awesome is clearly from before the Quirkening because it is equipped with LPLs despite being quirked for ERPPCs. Drop the engine from 315 (really?) to 300 and ditch one, just one, heatsink. Replace the LPLs with ERPPCs, raise the armour on the shield arm and upgrade the MLs to MPLs. It technically runs hotter but now you have two different weapon groups for entirely different ranges - MPLs for up close and ERPPCs for anything outside of the MPL effective range. Balancing the weapon groups by range means that they're less likely to fire them both at the same time like one would do with LPLs and MLs, which have mostly similar ranges with quite a bit of overlap.

The champion Victor has a good build aside from the XL engine. While a player that can torso twist could use it well it is a deathtrap for newer players and is clearly a holdover from a time before LFEs. Downgrade the XL340 to a LFE300 and move the third engine heatsink to the side torso. It moves 8 KPH slower, yes, but if you lose a torso you aren't immediately killed and the heat difference is neglible.

The Highlander champion is good. You can argue to change the FF to LFF and to change the engine to LFE, using the leftover weight to max the armour and add AMS, but I think it is pretty good where it is right now. I would recommend a UAC5 jam reduction quirk on it though. The variant could use it in general but it would be a huge benefit as a champion mech.

If you don't change the Awesome champion you have to change the Banshee champion because they are nearly identical. I'd recommend keeping the Banshee champion where it is at though since it's a good build and works better with it's height, something the Awesome lacks.

The Atlas champion is almost identical to the Orion champion and any improvements would look identical to the one I suggested above. I'd recommend changing the Orion and leaving the Atlas as is so it can brawl in close quarters and really use that armour while the Orion ditches the build and uses something along the lines of what I recommended alongside it's superior speed. If that isn't satisfying, well, change the Atlas champion's SRMs to MRM20 and the AC20 to a UAC20, if only to differentiate it.

Edited by IllCaesar, 13 June 2018 - 08:05 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The Night Star is the only decent one out of the group just trying to mimic an Annihilator while being slightly slower and without as much armor, but otherwise fine since the Annihilator is so powerful that weaker versions of it still are decent though not meta.

Roughneck and Bushwacker had so many other builds that were better that its sad to see them stuck with some sandblaster builds of LBX and MRMS that move slower than any of the good builds while putting out less effective damage. Though based on PGI's thoughts on high alpha builds and their opinions stated in outreach they don't seem to take into account how effective the damage you put out actually is, just that you put out damage.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Just for funzies, here are a bunch of Champ builds and (mostly) only slightly altered versions of them that don't blow chunks. Because I have nothing better to do right now and I am bored out of my skull, so screw it, let's rip on other peoples' bad decisions.

COM-1D(C): Whoever came up with this needs to be smacked. Say it with me: 25-tonners should not run STD engines. If you have to have that deadside, at least fill your bloody CT hardpoints! Better idea: go XL and bring more weapons. Commandos are fast. That is what they do well. The only way to tank in a Commando is to speedtank. And let's not even talk about why 33% of the total torso armor is in a fannypack.

OSR-1V(C): Really? You can jump two engine ratings with half a ton here, and gain that vital 10th full DHS. This is a no-brainer. Nobody uses XL245. For anything. Ever. It is a bad engine rating, and you should feel bad for designing this. 4 jump jets instead of 3 does not justify taking a bad engine and screwing your heat dissipation.

FS9-S(C): Oh for the love of... why would you take armor points off the side torsos, which are big and easy to hit? The. Head. Is. Right. There.

PNT-10K(C): Let's just stick a player with no experience whatsoever in an already extremely hot 'Mech with a sub-250 engine to make it worse, and don't forget to give them only weapons with minimum range issues! It'd also help if you could put both of those on the large and vulnerable arm. Thanks! Hey, look: 75% of the PPC with 0% of the minimum range derpfail thanks to 100% more backup weaponry, which also takes care of the arm loss issue and... whoa, a proper 10 DHS! It's like magic!

CN9-A(C): Apparently this poor lil' guy is Yen-Lo-Wang's scrawny kid brother, who keeps getting beat up on the playground and having his lunch money stolen. Teach that kid some kung fu! Or, y'know, stop trying to make a Wang out of a Not Wang and just upgrade the old Champion build to make a stronger statement.

CRB-27B(C): Let me introduce you to the good word of ERML. If you use both those centerline points for green pewpew instead of blue wubwub, you get the same damage as with the 3xLPL... but you can actually make that faux-deadside into a real deadside!

HBK-4P(C): Why do you hate your 7th high mount? It doesn't hate you. Embrace the peeky-pokey-pewpew. Can we fix it? Yes we can!

QKD-4G(C): It's not exactly bad, it's just... hey, y'all, I found two more SRM tubes, another heat sink, and some Liquid Schwartz in the glove box!

RGH-1A(C): If you were going for "exactly the kind of config a newbie with no knowledge of the game mechanics would build," then A+ on this one! Right down to the extra derpy armor allocation, with plating to spare on the sides and none on the rear CT! Some great suggestions to fix this one above, but here's mine anyway. And another for if you want to keep the midrange theme.

MDD-C(C): You can't be serious. It's not fair. Ripping on this one is like beating up a mentally challenged quadruple-amputee five year old kid in a wheelchair. I love idiotically oversized guns as much as the next 'Merican, but this is like some kind of twisted Clan version of the Boomcada. Except, somehow worse, because this 'Mech really can mount two large ballistics, and... you just... oh fine. We'll fix it anyway.

HGN-733C(C): What is this I don't even... Let me see if we're on the same page. You take the only Highlander capable of mounting an AC20, and you waste it on some kind of halfarsed attempt at a deadside dakka build, when there are about twenty 'Mechs with way better hardpoints for UACs? Then- just so we're clear on this- you shave armor off the gun arm? You're trolling me, right? Ashton Kutcher is gonna jump out of a bush with a TV camera and start laughing in my face. Any second now. Aaaaany second... No? The First Commandment of Boom is: Thou shalt have no other guns before me.

Guys. Plz. Stahp.

[Xetelian]

Excellent suggestions guys.


How to get it across to PGI that these champions give new players a bad experience?

[Haipyng]

Xetelian, on 13 June 2018 - 01:28 AM, said:

Excellent suggestions guys.


How to get it across to PGI that these champions give new players a bad experience?

Perhaps PGi should have the community respec the Champion mechs with the builds with the most votes getting to be played in online event for a run off. The builds achieving the most damage done/most kills made will become the new Champion build. A fun way to update sagging subpar builds.

[Elizander]

Haipyng, on 13 June 2018 - 04:27 AM, said:

Perhaps PGi should have the community respec the Champion mechs with the builds with the most votes getting to be played in online event for a run off. The builds achieving the most damage done/most kills made will become the new Champion build. A fun way to update sagging subpar builds.

I agree that some of these are really old and it's a bit of poor form to keep them that way.

Since everything is about money in a business, PGI can make the updated ones a new champion version and call them (C2) so they can be sold separately from the (C) version.

PGI can make the purchase even more worth it if they actually sold (C) or (C2) mechs with 91 Historical Skill Points for the mech. They are already selling XP+C-bills to skill up mechs with MC, so that boat has sailed and can be used for other stuff. They can sell them exclusively on the gift store to ensure fresh cash coming in from those purchases or maybe only the gift store sales will give the SP.

Edited by Elizander, 13 June 2018 - 05:28 AM.

[Asym]

Another sales gimmick PGI uses a lot and whales buy 'everything' in sight.....

[IllCaesar]

Haipyng, on 13 June 2018 - 04:27 AM, said:

Perhaps PGi should have the community respec the Champion mechs with the builds with the most votes getting to be played in online event for a run off. The builds achieving the most damage done/most kills made will become the new Champion build. A fun way to update sagging subpar builds.

I like the idea but I don't think a direct vote would work. I think voting for a handful of final contestant builds would be better. You know, this way we don't end up with a Nightstar that boats UAC2s and is named Nightstar McNightstarface.

[Dee Eight]

Xetelian, on 12 June 2018 - 11:34 AM, said:

Champion/Trial mechs are generally built in such a way that if they're put on rotation that a new player or a player without a particular mech can try them out, right?

For the past two years champions have been designed by the forum user community every six months or so, with the most popular winning the prize of being the new champion version but that was for QUICK PLAY and FACTION PLAY matches. The bushwacker, nightstar and roughneck champions were slapped together by PGI specifically for SOLARIS, because the game is coded to only use champion versions as the free trial mechs. Solaris mechs only face one other mech in a match, so they do not need major stores of ammunition. THAT should have been plainly obvious to anyone who has played the Solaris mode, given that these new trial mechs first appeared there in their respective divisions. The "trial" mech for Div 1 is the Nightstar, for Div 2 its the Mad Dog, Div 3 is the roughneck, Div 4 the bushwacker, Div 5 is the assassin, Div 6 the Osiris, and Div 7 the Uziel. None of those mechs had a pre-existing champion so they were all new PGI builds specifically for Solaris combat. That several are unsuitable for quick play or faction warfare against many opponents... is your own problem for not understanding.

FupDup, on 12 June 2018 - 11:36 AM, said:

72 kph mediums and 56 kph heavies...these "champion" builds were made by potatoes for potatoes.

They were made for Solaris mode and that's it. Why is this not obvious to someone who's been here for years ?!

NaturalBornGriller, on 12 June 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

Also it might be handy to throw a few trial SP on them to make them more middle of the road. Terrible build with no SP = worst mech on your team

No mech comes with any SP when you buy it, and none of these new Solaris specific champion mechs are available in quick play or faction play as free trial mechs so there is NO team for them to be involved with.

[Dee Eight]

IllCaesar, on 12 June 2018 - 08:50 PM, said:

Edit: Looking at the champions you can see that some are terribly out of date.

They were the meta for the quirks the chassis had at the time, and the tech that was available at the time.

[SmokedJag]

Of course the Solaris champions are bad for QP. Most of the builds in Solaris that are good there are at best situational in a group.

The Mad Dog for example is a bigger version of an even dumber (but deadly) Hunchback IIC. It's not "good" (esp. without skill tree ammo nodes) but it's not likely to last much longer in constant combat than its ammo will anyway.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 12 June 2018 - 11:36 AM, said:

72 kph mediums and 56 kph heavies...these "champion" builds were made by potatoes for potatoes.

problem is if you give new players meta builds they will lack the skill to leverage them properly. like high alpha builds are not something you can just jump in and instawin, there are tactics you need to understand first.

you need user friendly mechs. really good heat ratings, appropriate amounts of ammo, engine rating appropriate for mech class, backup lasers always but not so much that they cook themselves on the first shot. the build should be flexible and not so situational they will be useless in 9/10 matches. they should be sub-meta but not useless. these mechs look like they are built by noobs but wont really help a new player do anything useful for their team. they are probably built this bad so that new players are tempted to buy a mech pack, they want you to think you can pay to win.

[IllCaesar]

Dee Eight, on 13 June 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

They were the meta for the quirks the chassis had at the time, and the tech that was available at the time.

I'm well aware. When they first introduced the champions as trial mechs instead of stock mechs most players liked that change. Further, most of the champions introduced were quite good for the time. I was already here playing when some of them were first introduced. Many of these were pre-Civil War tech, pre-Quirkening, and even pre-Clans, though. They just don't hold up anymore. A lot of them didn't hold up four years ago either but they're more glaring than ever now.

Edited by IllCaesar, 13 June 2018 - 11:21 AM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

SmokedJag, on 13 June 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

Of course the Solaris champions are bad for QP. Most of the builds in Solaris that are good there are at best situational in a group.

The Mad Dog for example is a bigger version of an even dumber (but deadly) Hunchback IIC. It's not "good" (esp. without skill tree ammo nodes) but it's not likely to last much longer in constant combat than its ammo will anyway.

...except that the 2xLB20X HBK-IIC is actually a viable build, because it has the following critical features that the derpy MDD(C) lacks:

- 5 to 5.5 tons of ammo, depending on leg armor.
- Full armor on its weapons.
- High mounts.
- Jets.
- Hitboxes that actually permit effective damage spreading.

It's a 'Mech that can easily solo most heavies, which makes it pretty damn good for Solaris drops. It also does extremely well in Scouting drops, provided it has competent teammates who won't leave it behind. Its geometry lets it take full advantage of any cover on the map, and it can often win trades without taking any return fire at all because it only needs to expose its cockpit and guns to fire. If / when it does lose a gun, it can use the destroyed weapon housing to shield the surviving 2/3 of the 'Mech while it continues to fight.

That MDD will lose a gun the first time it gets shot, with only 28pts on each cannon... and the next shot turns you into a stick. It is a config that relies completely on ambushing the enemy; it doesn't work at all unless your first shot takes something off the enemy. Its geometry does not allow it to peek safely; despite being faster, it is also less mobile, has terrible convergence, and its hitboxes frankly suck; there's no shielding value in any component it loses. A new player expecting a viable trial build instead of a troll 'Mech, then dropping against someone else's custom duelist and not even getting three shots off before they're crippled, is going to come away from driving it with a sour taste about the game. Any competently made quickplay 'Mech would take that thing apart with contemptuous ease- let alone minmaxed cheese purpose-built for 1v1s. It is a bad build in any game mode.

If you want dual large ballistics on a MDD, 10s are the only reasonable choice. Otherwise, for a 1v1? Splatdog. You could even make a hybrid, since you don't need all that much ammo for a duel. Anything but the monstrosity it's got right now.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 13 June 2018 - 11:57 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Champion builds suffer a lot at this point.

No new tech, really. LFE's on IS robots would go a long way from watching people XL check assaults dead.

Builds are optimized for skilltree being maxed out. This means they generally run their guns dry too fast, overheat too quickly, or both and are generally not newbie-friendly. They usually need a little more ammo and heat sinkage and a little less gun.

AMS not being on the robots newbies are expected to use a lot, while Paul complains about LRMs being newbie killers.

[JC Daxion]

Brain Cancer, on 13 June 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

Champion builds suffer a lot at this point.

No new tech, really. LFE's on IS robots would go a long way from watching people XL check assaults dead.

Builds are optimized for skilltree being maxed out. This means they generally run their guns dry too fast, overheat too quickly, or both and are generally not newbie-friendly. They usually need a little more ammo and heat sinkage and a little less gun.

AMS not being on the robots newbies are expected to use a lot, while Paul complains about LRMs being newbie killers.

the problem is they use Champions as Trial mechs.. Champion mechs are GXP boosting mechs and should all get a nice update pass and rebuild as new tech is out, many would get LFE's or XL's..



PGI really needs to add Trial mechs, that are geared for just that. They are not min/maxed mechs, they are just nice builds that don't run to hot, and have decent movement/armor ect. Trial mechs are not changesw anywhere near enough for people to play around with different mechs. that is why you spend C-bills.


So come up with 12 IS trial mechs that would be good for a new player, and 12 clanner trial mechs,, make them for the new player, and the only way to play those mechs is to buy i (with your c-bills), or just play the trial.


give 3 trial mechs at each weight class and each side. Make them have 3 different playstyles, or semi niches. Make um the average all around mechs that anyone can jump in and do fairly decent in. an MPL Stormcrow for example.


Champions should be the MC +GXP version, and should have all the upgrades and be well made as they are MC purchase mechs.

Edited by JC Daxion, 13 June 2018 - 08:27 PM.