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The Curious Case Of Anh-1E: Boat Them Shs!


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#1 razenWing

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 06:19 AM

Having 8 energy hardpoints sound like a dream for Clan energy mech, especially on an Assault 100 tonner. Playing around with the KDK 5 for 8 energy hardpoints into the standard laser vom (2lpl + 6 erml) gave me the following:

https://mwo.smurfy-n...8d571d779a977bf

29 DHS. possible. Curious case here and how assaults are under valued in MWO, is that if you switch the structure back to Endo, put in the XL 400, you will get the exact same heat efficiency, (29 dhs), little bit faster, full armor on head and legs, AND 2.5 tons leftover... everything about it spells faulty game design.

(IMO, there should be different GH limit for different weight class so that the assaults can be properly armed with heavier firepower than heavy or lighter counterparts, for example, but that's discussion for another day)

With that LONG setup, here is what I am getting at...

Picture 1
Posted Image


Picture 2
Posted Image

Picture 1 is the ANH-1E with DHS and standard retro IS laser vom setup, 3 lpl 5 ml (or erml if you want, also that it's 15 alpha damage lower than kdk despite carrying 1 more lpl, hum...)

As you can see, it's maxed out at 1.27 with 23 heatsinks with no more slots, giving a whopping 7 tons of ghost tonnage (I recognize that when I took the screenshot, I didn't max my armor yet) with no where to go (since you can't upgrade those engines any further)

Now, Picture 2 is ANH-1E with the exact same setup but SHS. You can run light-ferro because you now have more slots than weight, and after a whopping 36 SHS, you max out your mech's tonnage with 36 heatsinks to bring the mech to a cooling efficiency the same as the Clan KDK 8 E setup. (39%)

In this very curious case, your old SHS tech setup ANH-1E comes out on top over the newer tech DHS ANH with better tonnage usage and much better heat management. But I do note that if you don't mind stagger fire and use much more tonnage/slot efficient weapon such as 2 groups of LPL, than DHS will obviously give you better result. (with 5 or 6 lpl though, you are going to be NO WHERE NEAR 1.2 heat efficiency, so, yea, there's that too)

Conclusion?

Most other IS mechs would never max out slots even with DHS, thus the 10 engine DHS upgrade gave you so much advantage that the amount of extra SHS wll not be better mathematically than the DHS. In ANH's case, the staggering amount of free tonnage available means that you can overcome that 10 SHS downgrade and boat enough SHS to overcome the issue. It's a curious case because the ANH cannot upgrade it's engine any further. However, it's worth noting that the bigger the engine, the less HS you can carry, so in a way for IS mechs, SHS actually give higher heat management ceiling than DHS, it's just whether you want to trade speed/firepower/armor to do so.

2 finishing thoughts...

1: no matter what, assaults are under-firepowered because GH introduce an unnatural block on the optimization of laser builds. the optimized setup can be done poorly on a medium, great on a heavy, and underwhelming as an assault.

2: something more tonnage/weight efficient like the X-pulse laser may solve the issue with both Clan and IS assaults. (of course, the X-pulse should not be more slot starved, but simply heavier than regular pulse) by allowing assaults to efficiently carry heavier strike weapon while using the slots more efficiently.

bonus thought:

is it time for a 2nd new tech announcement? Clans need some new toys, as those crappy micro lasers are nil useless and not being used, meaning, Clan basically got absolutely nothing during the last tech innov. Well, the ATMs I guess, but also see how IS got MRMs, new ballistics that is murdering people left and right with 50 damage pinpoint no GH alpha, new lasers that's a flat replacement for the most part compare to old tech, and etc.

New toys time to fix the assault problem, and this time PGi, be fair, give clans more toys!

(figure i try something a little less controversial this time. though 1400 views 70 replies 3 days... thanks guys!)

Edited by razenWing, 21 June 2018 - 06:24 AM.


#2 Nightbird

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 06:27 AM

Yes, if you severely undergun your assault mech SHS is meh, but the same build is much better on a Black Knight.

(With DHS)

#3 razenWing

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 06:30 AM

View PostNightbird, on 21 June 2018 - 06:27 AM, said:

Yes, if you severely undergun your assault mech SHS is meh, but the same build is much better on a Black Knight.

(With DHS)


Well, the only way I can forsee you "proper gunning" your assault is by carrying more "larger" weapons, but that also mean stagger fire + lower heat managemnt by vitue of larger weapons producing much higher heat. It's also worth nothing that the BK with DHS setup, as shown here, will only be 1.2 ish, and will never reach 1.39 as the SHS ANH.

edit: I thnk that's part of the finishing thought that I draw conclusion from, is that assaults are undergunned perpetually because of the optimization of laser vom due to GH limit. if that can be removed, or at least changed among weight classes, then assaults can be gunned better due to having more weight to carry those larger weapons

Edited by razenWing, 21 June 2018 - 06:33 AM.


#4 Nightbird

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 06:33 AM

You want to poke with an Anni or a BLK? The Annu will be absolutely destroyed in many situations the BLK can easily poke in.

#5 El Bandito

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 06:37 AM

Don't care at all about las-vomit Annie-1E. Quad HPPC Annie-1P with improved SHS on the other hand...

#6 razenWing

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 06:38 AM

View PostNightbird, on 21 June 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

You want to poke with an Anni or a BLK? The Annu will be absolutely destroyed in many situations the BLK can easily poke in.


effectiveness of mechs in these combat situations are deliberately avoided in my discussion per se. the ANH is slow, big, and no matter the 1.39 heat efficiency, a 8 e hardpoint assault just can't lead charge with no sustained firepower. so you are absolutely right that I would take a BLk with 8 e over ANH wth 8 e.

But, again, that's not the topic of discussion, merely mentioning how pure heat management wise, ANH 8 e is much better SHS than DHS, and for IS mechs in general, SHS give higher heat management ceiling if you can afford the tonnage

#7 Aidan Crenshaw

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 06:40 AM

https://mwomercs.com...atsinks-buffed/

#8 Nightbird

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 06:41 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 21 June 2018 - 06:37 AM, said:

Don't care at all about las-vomit Annie-1E. Quad HPPC Annie-1P with improved SHS on the other hand...


If OP wants 1click, how about 2HPPC, 3LPL, 3ML? 75 damage worthy of a 100 tonner.

#9 lazorbeamz

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 06:46 AM

Banshee boats SHS like crazy. like 34 shs.

I mean PGI was like... ehh we re going to nerf laaser vomit.... lets go and buff SHS and see what happens eheheheh Posted Image

Edited by lazorbeamz, 21 June 2018 - 06:46 AM.


#10 Verilligo

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 07:06 AM

View PostNightbird, on 21 June 2018 - 06:41 AM, said:

If OP wants 1click, how about 2HPPC, 3LPL, 3ML? 75 damage worthy of a 100 tonner.

That sounds like a very special sort of oven.

#11 Nightbird

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 07:18 AM

View PostVerilligo, on 21 June 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

That sounds like a very special sort of oven.


Agreed, I don't think I would ever get this variant but if I had to, I would do 6LPL+2ML or 6LL+2ERML. I'm ok with two clicks.

#12 Verilligo

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 07:48 AM

View PostNightbird, on 21 June 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

Agreed, I don't think I would ever get this variant but if I had to, I would do 6LPL+2ML or 6LL+2ERML. I'm ok with two clicks.

The problem with going LPL or even LL is that so many of those lasers are stuck in those low, low arms. Given the LPL build is generally more pokey than anything else and what with the Anni's general inability to... change direction, to be honest, I'm not sure how much fun it would be. TTB made it work for a video, but he was clearly struggling to push the mech to do something it wasn't made to. I actually think Razen might be onto something, but the build he's chosen to go with is kinda trash because it's again trying to make a poke build, but without any damage or DPS behind it.

Solving the damage problem is probably not going to happen without creating another special oven. In that case, you would probably be better off taking a DPS route and stacking the thing with 6 MPL and 2 LPL or 2 SNPPCs. Then you can fill the thing up with 28-30 external SHS and get enough dissipation that you match Clan laservomit builds, but with actual DPS behind it. It'll be sluggish and short ranged, but with good aim you can push with it pretty well. This is assuming you're stuck in a ANH-1E, though, which should be a problem you rectify before you even reach the MechLab.

Edited by Verilligo, 21 June 2018 - 10:26 AM.


#13 Y E O N N E

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 09:19 AM

I would point out that this is not a case unique the the ANH or even IS. The SNV-1 is in a similar situation and is also more heat efficient with SHS. Thing is, it's not really worth the JJ sacrifice when its DHS builds are already more efficient than the competition.

This whole phenomenon is applicable to weighty energy boat 'Mechs with low engine caps.





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