63 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

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PREFACE:

The Rework aims to redefine the PPCs roles, for them to better fit niches and at the same time work well with other weapons. Leave the meta behind, the PPCs as I try to redefine them is more than just for pokes. If you're going to argue from the standpoint of poking (except for PPC Capacitor, then you're missing the point.

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ER-PPC

Damage: 10
Speed: 2300
Heat: 11.5 (From 13.5)
Range [m]: 810 - 1620
Cooldown [s]: 4.5
GH Limit: 3 (From 2)

There's simply just little instance of where ERPPC is kinda useful. Sure it's good for long range where it's supposed to be, but long range is rarely the range. PPC is quite adequate for most distances, that the extra heat isn't necessary. And PPC is not even that much of a choice when talking about PPFLD cause HPPC.

With extra projectile speed offset by longer cooldown, it's further cemented to long range role. Being able to deliver 30 damage from afar is really important.

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PPC

Damage: 10
DPS: 2.5
Speed: 1350
Heat: 8.5 (from 9.5)
Range [m]: 90 - 540 - 1080 [Progressive Damage Min-Range]
Cooldown [s]: 4
GH Limit: 3 (From 2)

PPC currently has little to offer. It doesn't hit as hard as HPPCs, sure it's cold but it's still pretty hot. It has minimum range that further mitigates it's close range use. It's at an awkward place that it doesn't suck or excel at something, that it doesn't give much reason to be picked over other in specialized fields. The increase in GH limit allows it to compete with HPPC, as trading for 1 ton is - 1s of cooldown time. HPPCs is for better convergence and heat overtime, but PPCs could compete with better firing rate and DPS.

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SN-PPC

Damage: 10
Speed: 1050 (from 1200)
Heat: 8 (From 10)
Range [m]: 270 - 720 (from 270 - 630)
Cooldown [s]: 3.5
GH Limit: 3 (From 2)

SN-PPC is just too damn hot for it's short range, and it deters use with close-range builds where it's supposed to shine over the PPC. The extra range is there for the fact that it's supposed to be a bit longer range still. But the reduction in projectile speed is supposed to be the counterbalancing factor to make sure that it is still limited to short range despite increase in range, in addition of it being the relatively coolest PPC in terms of heat/damage. The reduced cooldown also makes this competitive against medium lasers.

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LPPC

Damage: 5
DPS: 2 (from 1.25)
Speed: 1200
Heat: 4.5 (from 5)
Range [m]: 90 - 540 - 1080 [Progressive Damage Min-Range]
Cooldown [s]: 2.5 (from 4)
GH Limit: 4 (From 3)

LPPC is literally blah, it's not that good on its own nor within it's GH Limit. And the target demographic mechs of the LPPC such as lights, won't have much use for it because of low damage/ton and most likely will just be scoffed at over other more sensible choice like ER ML.

By reducing CD, this becomes a bit more viable weapon, and the difference from other PPC behavior geared towards ACs would provide a uniqueness that would open up for different strategies, and would make LPPCs synergize with ACs.

Yes, PPCs are not supposed to be ACs, but all things considering, the difference in what role they could take up would allow them to have a niche in the field, as opposed of just which PPC hits harder in which invariably the rest of the PPC would be left out.

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HPPC

Damage: 15
DPS: 3
Speed: 1500
Heat: 12.5 (from 14.5)
Range [m]: 90 - 540 - 1080 [Progressive Damage Min-Range]
Cooldown [s]: 5

HPPC is relatively fine. In fact, the point of PPFLD is to dump most damage at a single point, in which HPPC does exceptionally well. The problem is the diversity (lack there-of) of roles within the entire series, it's just a matter of which dumps the most damage with what, and just a bit playing of heat and range, and because HPPC results the MOST damage dumped, then it will be invariably be picked with respect to meta.

Additional Notes:
- Difference in Projectile Speed is there to disturb PPC convergence between different sizes of PPC.
- LPPC and PPC no longer has dead-zone, but progressive damage min-range like HPPC. That they still do damage, but reduced as closer the target is with respect to minimum range.

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PPC Capacitor:

+ Damage
+ Velocity
+ CD
+ Charge Time
- DPS

The mechanism of how PPC capacitor would work is that, it will have + 1 ton and + 1 slot like Artemis and Missile Weapons, and costing more even. As a weapon, it would be literally a high-heat, low range, unlimited ammo, light-weight Gauss. CD is calculated by the DPS/ton of equivalent damage profile balanced by the difference in weight, minus 1 for the charge time.

The Idea of PPC Capacitor is that it increases the heat and damage, but if that is added vanilla with our weapon system then it will literally be unbalanced because we have weapon systems doing superior damage/ton with account for LPPC, and that's something we have to address, and so i chose to address it with severely reduced DPS and charge time, also reduced GH.

The Philosophy of PPC Capacitor is that, it would be a stand-in for doing good damage at a poke, but it would have worse DPS than their counterpart. It is only built for pure poking in mind. When push comes to shove, the low HPS would be great when weapons are being used as secondary to other weapons.

LPPC + Capacitor:

4 Ton
3 Slot

Damage: 10
Speed: 1400
Heat: 9.5
Range [m]: 90 - 540 - 1080 [Progressive Damage Min-Range]
Cooldown [s]: 6
Charge Time [s]: 1
DPS: 1.4285
GH Limit: 2

PPC + Capacitor:

8 Ton
4 Slot

Damage: 15
Speed: 1400
Heat: 13.5
Range [m]: 90 - 540 - 1080 [Progressive Damage Min-Range]
Cooldown [s]: 5.75
Charge Time [s]: 1
DPS: 2.2222
GH Limit: 2

SN-PPC + Capacitor:

7 Ton
3 Slot

Damage: 15
Speed: 1400
Heat: 13
Range [m]: 270 - 720
Cooldown [s]: 5.0
Charge Time [s]: 1
DPS: 2.5
GH Limit: 2

ER-PPC + Capacitor:


8 Ton
4 Slot

Damage: 15
Speed: 2400
Heat: 16.5
Range [m]: 810 - 1620
Cooldown [s]: 6
Charge Time [s]: 1
DPS: 2.1428
GH Limit: 2

HPPC + Capacitor:

11 Ton
5 Slot

Damage: 20
Speed: 1400
Heat: 17.5
Range [m]: 540 - 1080 [Progressive Damage Min-Range]
Cooldown [s]: 7.5
Charge Time [s]: 1.0
DPS: 2.3529
GH Limit: 2

Changes:
- Balanced Total heat with 2x HPPC and 3x PPC -- with 3x PPC having worse heat, and tweaked SNPPC.
- Rebalanced HPPC with minimum changes, and rebalanced the other PPCs with respect of HPPC as base.
- Rebalanced SNPPC to be competitive at close range.
- Rebalanced ERPPC to be better at long range.
- Added PPC Capacitor Concept -- it increases PPC damage, but adds CD and Charge time, enough to completely normalize DPS/Ton.
- Rebalanced Heat.
- Rebalanced Velocity.

[POLL]

Edited by The6thMessenger, 05 July 2018 - 04:17 PM.

[Xetelian]

Voted.

I have to agree that SNPPC is ridiculously hot for its tonnage.

AC20 + AC20 = Ghostheat but it is still less heat than AC20 + 2xSNPPC

[FupDup]

I would refer to these as "buffs," not "reworks." Rework implies a significant role or mechanical change. These are just XML bumps.

[Gwahlur]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

SN-PPC is just too damn hot

QFT

[Y E O N N E]

My main hang-up is allowing the standard PPC to fire 3 before ghost heat. Why? Because, excepting hardpoint-starved 'Mechs, getting 30 damage for 24 heat at 21 tons is better than 30 damage for 27 heat at 20 tons with a pair of HPPC. Significantly better.

For a similar reason, I am not for allowing the LPPC to fire 4 before ghost heat. Instead, I'd rather 4.5 heat and the shorter cooldown. That higher rate of fire would be enough to differentiate them, I think.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 June 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

My main hang-up is allowing the standard PPC to fire 3 before ghost heat. Why? Because, excepting hardpoint-starved 'Mechs, getting 30 damage for 24 heat at 21 tons is better than 30 damage for 27 heat at 20 tons with a pair of HPPC. Significantly better.

Well, that's kinda the point to let PPCs be competitive against 2x HPPC. I suppose i could make 3x PPC hotter than 2x HPPC. In fact that is what i'll do.

Yeonne Greene, on 20 June 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

For a similar reason, I am not for allowing the LPPC to fire 4 before ghost heat. Instead, I'd rather 4.5 heat and the shorter cooldown. That higher rate of fire would be enough to differentiate them, I think.

Well, it still does 20 damage per alpha at 4 GH, so I don't really see much problem. Other PPCs could still go for higher alphas at their limit, because it's supposed to go hand-in-hand with the 3 GH Limit for the other 3 PPCs that allow up to 30 damage. As for the heat, my approach was the heavier weapon it is, the more heat efficient it is -- or at least right now after the tweak:

HPPC Heat: 13 (2x = 26)
PPC Heat: 9 (3x = 27)
SNPPC Heat: 8.5 (3x = 25.5)

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 June 2018 - 07:53 PM.

[MechaBattler]

I agree with them needing a rework. Especially LPPCs and Snubs.

[El Bandito]

The moment PPCs become useful, bloody poptarts will be all over them. I cannot agree with PPC buffs, unless PGI makes JJs shake all the way down, until the feet touch the ground.

[jjm1]

The few times I've used LPPCs on lights/mediums I thought I did rather well until you see the pathetic end of match damage score. They could do with some sort of ROF buff or something.

ER-PPCs are the only ones worth bringing 9 times out of ten. Fastest velocity and you don't have to worry about range that much. Heat can be managed if you can maintain cover and distance. Using one by itself is usually bad, but two of them can really rack up the damage. I would un-nerf them a little from what they got, but not much, I would instead quirk mechs that should be using them as a primary. Case in point: Black Lanner -A gets screwed over by having no cooldown for its single C-ER-PPC, so its a ridiculous 5 seconds between 10 damage point shots) I play it like mad and will never come close to what a "default" clan build (laser vomit) will always get.

[The6thMessenger]

jjm1, on 20 June 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

Case in point: Black Lanner -A gets screwed over by having no cooldown for its single C-ER-PPC, so its a ridiculous 5 seconds between 10 damage point shots) I play it like mad and will never come close to what a "default" clan build (laser vomit) will always get.

This is IS series. The IS ERPPC isn't really that good generally considering the other alternatives, that less DHS could be put, and it's also heavier.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2018 - 07:21 PM, said:

Well, it still does 20 damage per alpha at 4 GH, so I don't really see much problem.

The problem is that now, on 'Mechs that would otherwise take two PPCs, it's better to instead take 4 LPPC to better burst down a target. That nets me two more DHS and that is worth the 2 heat offset vice a pair of PPC, especially on something like a BJ-3 that has the quirks and the hardpoints for it. Personally, I thought being able to quickly cycle 3+3 from something like a Rifleman was appealing; not every PPC has to be suited for poptarting or even mere peaking.

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As for the heat, my approach was the heavier weapon it is, the more heat efficient it is -- or at least right now after the tweak:

HPPC Heat: 13 (2x = 26)
PPC Heat: 9 (3x = 27)
SNPPC Heat: 8.5 (3x = 25.5)

Prior to your tweak, I didn't see that as being violated: the PPC had a damage-to-heat ratio of 1.25 (10/8), the LPPC would have been 1.11 at 4.5 heat.

[jjm1]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

This is IS series. The IS ERPPC isn't really that good generally considering the other alternatives, that less DHS could be put, and it's also heavier.

There isn't a huge difference IMO, it comes down to mech hardpoints and quirks more than clan vs IS. Uziel is a good dual ER-PPC mech due to its speed and high mounts. Nova is good because of its quirks and JJs. I liked running a MAD-3R with quad PPCs, it could outgun a quad ER-PPC Warhawk, but I think PGI inexplicably nerfed that IIRC. But yeah in general, clans have mechs better suited to the dual ER-PPC playstyle, like the Summoner.

[Y E O N N E]

jjm1, on 20 June 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

There isn't a huge difference IMO, it comes down to mech hardpoints and quirks more than clan vs IS. Uziel is a good dual ER-PPC mech due to its speed and high mounts. Nova is good because of its quirks and JJs. I liked running a MAD-3R with quad PPCs, it could outgun a quad ER-PPC Warhawk, but I think PGI inexplicably nerfed that IIRC. But yeah in general, clans have mechs better suited to the dual ER-PPC playstyle, like the Summoner.

The key factors that make Clans better-suited to PPC play are heat profile, splash, and minimum range. No matter which flavor of PPC is chosen, IS 'Mechs struggle to meet similar sustained rates of damage delivery. The splash makes PPCs other than Heavy unappealing, and all but the Snub and the ER have a minimum range that makes tackling them a trivial matter for something fast and alert.

The quirks just help alleviate heat efficiency to some extent, either directly or by lengthening the reach on non-ER PPCs.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 June 2018 - 10:26 PM, said:

The problem is that now, on 'Mechs that would otherwise take two PPCs, it's better to instead take 4 LPPC to better burst down a target. That nets me two more DHS and that is worth the 2 heat offset vice a pair of PPC, especially on something like a BJ-3 that has the quirks and the hardpoints for it.

I suppose it is quite a conundrum there, but is that really that bad? I mean sure the 2x PPCs is kinda phased out, but then 3x PPC is also available, and the point of the GH tweaks in this context is have them at max limit competitive at the max limit of other weapons right?

Applications of either 2x PPC or 4x LPPC could also be further differentiated with what they want to achieve, such as whether they're the type that barrels down on targets through constant fire, or would they want a cooler weapon that would yield better heat overtime that allows them to be paired with weapons with less DHS needed for otherwise sustained fire, or because they couldn't spare slots slot-intensive builds (because 2x PPC = 6 slots vs 4x LPPC + 2 DHS = 14 slots), or they want less exposure by hit-and-run weapons that allows them to dump a good amount of damage and cool off in between, even convergence if they worry about those.

I mean isn't it obvious that LPPCs would have a comparatively rapid rate of fire in which i would argue that it will provide a tendency to stare, and would result in higher HPS and dependency to Heat Sinks? And it could be set up that LPPC has worse damage/heat next to ERPPC, and i am even considering that.

And if the problems are specific mechs, wouldn't it be prudent to simply tweak the mechs themselves? After all, the entire PPC series for IS would be rebalanced.

Yeonne Greene, on 20 June 2018 - 10:26 PM, said:

Personally, I thought being able to quickly cycle 3+3 from something like a Rifleman was appealing; not every PPC has to be suited for poptarting or even mere peaking.

I know right? I just wanted this AC-tuned LPPC so that i could link it with ACs.

Imagine Warhammers with 2x UAC5 + 4x LPPC (that has 2.5 CD), be-e-a-yu-tiful.

Yeonne Greene, on 20 June 2018 - 10:26 PM, said:

Prior to your tweak, I didn't see that as being violated: the PPC had a damage-to-heat ratio of 1.25 (10/8), the LPPC would have been 1.11 at 4.5 heat.

That was the SNPPC at 8, whereas the PPC used to be at 8.5 -- the model puts the SNPPC having the best damage/heat in the class. I'm even considering 4.5s cooldown.

But what about the current tweak?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 June 2018 - 11:41 PM.

[jjm1]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 June 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

The key factors that make Clans better-suited to PPC play are heat profile, splash, and minimum range. No matter which flavor of PPC is chosen, IS 'Mechs struggle to meet similar sustained rates of damage delivery. The splash makes PPCs other than Heavy unappealing, and all but the Snub and the ER have a minimum range that makes tackling them a trivial matter for something fast and alert.

The quirks just help alleviate heat efficiency to some extent, either directly or by lengthening the reach on non-ER PPCs.

dunno man. Having played them, there's more factors at play than the weapon stats. Having unlocked arms and SNPPCs on the 3R makes you pretty dangerous to lights. Obviously you have to hit them and then ping is the second biggest stat after skill in whether a weapon can have a viable use case or not.

[The6thMessenger]

jjm1, on 20 June 2018 - 11:14 PM, said:

dunno man. Having played them, there's more factors at play than the weapon stats. Having unlocked arms and SNPPCs on the 3R makes you pretty dangerous to lights. Obviously you have to hit them and then ping is the second biggest stat after skill in whether a weapon can have a viable use case or not.

Yes, SNPPCs -- and ERPPCs, as Yeonne pointed out in the very quote you presented. He was talking about other PPCs.

[jjm1]

The6thMessenger, on 20 June 2018 - 11:16 PM, said:

Yes, SNPPCs -- and ERPPCs, as Yeonne pointed out in the very quote you presented. He was talking about other PPCs.

I'm just saying they have their viable use cases. Lights have to have a chance too, a PPC hit can be devastating for them.

[The6thMessenger]

jjm1, on 20 June 2018 - 11:25 PM, said:

I'm just saying they have their viable use cases. Lights have to have a chance too, a PPC hit can be devastating for them.

Oh sure, i agree, im not protesting that for lights, nor I am saying that they aren't viable at certain cases.

But then the roles these weapons currently have are too niche, and the every niches that they do -- such as SNPPC being too hot at close range, or LPPC being too lame for it's target weight-class, ER PPC being too hot for it's damage output for a range that is not exactly common or even worth to engage at, and HPPC just overshadowing pretty much every other PPCs -- that's just quite an issue.

There is no question that there ARE other factors at play, such as quirks. But weapon stats contributes to a massive factor, and addressing them by weapon basis has a larger effect on the game, as opposed of approaching this on by mech basis.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 20 June 2018 - 11:36 PM.

[LordNothing]

i kind of agree that the roles need to be diversified. they all have a niche which is highly marginalized to the point of not being there at all. the worst offender is the snppc in my opinion. it needs its heat dropped to 8. that or give it a couple more hitpoints. maybe even redo the damage-range curve such that it gets an extra 2 hitpoints but only inside the 90 meter range making it very brawlworthy.

on the other end of the spectrum the lppc is pretty well defined. but its still kind of meh relative to other options in the same niche. faster fire rate works there. go for dps and try to aim for the same niche as the ac5, but in the light space.

the ppc is kind of redundant with all those options so it needs to be better at something. though im not really sure what. it needs to be something other than the half way point between the er and the snub. it needs to have the same sustain capabilities that the cerppc has on the warhawk.

hppc hands down is what the ppc should be. a big fat energy cannon. pain incarnate.

[aardappelianen]

El Bandito, on 20 June 2018 - 08:14 PM, said:

The moment PPCs become useful, bloody poptarts will be all over them. I cannot agree with PPC buffs, unless PGI makes JJs shake all the way down, until the feet touch the ground.

Or put ppc and jumpjets in same ghost heat group

Personally i would like to see a small buff to lppc's like increasing its ROF slightly and reducing the minimum range