63 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

I want PPCs to feel strong and meaningful, but then i fear to over-buff them and we have PPFLD meta again.
At least imho PPCs should be the AC20 of energy weapons.

I think Yeonnes point of Aiming time vs laser burn time is a good point that needs to be considered when tweaking weapons.
It's one of the main reasons why lasers are usually easier than PPFLD weapons.

I was even thinking giving PPCs more dmg, but then reducing velocity to make it "harder" to aim.
But with this in mind, we would need to push beam durations by similar %.
e.g. if the velocity is only around 900, the beams need to be 1.25 - 2.0s long or something.


Well, or adding more splash for a higher total damage (e.g. 130% dmg), but that's not really something people want from a PPFLD weapon, as Yeonnes pointed out.
Otherwise I would even suggest to put PPCs to something more like 6+4+4 and HPPC to 10+5+5 with LPPCs just doing flat 5 dmg but slight RoF buff to something like 3.5s cd


But without Splash,(besides CERPPC) the only real changes to differentiate the types, I would see feasible is cd&heat:
- Keep velocity between 900 and 1200 and remove velocity quirks.
- LPPC with 3.5s cd, 4.5 heat -> for slightly higher dps than PPC
- SNPPC with 3.5s cd, 8 heat -> for lowest heat with lowest range
- PPC with 4.0s cd, 9 heat -> for average range, cd and heat
- ERPPC with 4.5s cd, 12 heat (1800m/s velocity) -> for highest speed and range with high heat
- HPPC with 5.0s cd, 13 heat -> for long cd, but high dmg for average heat

- CERPPC with 5.5s cd, 14 heat -> for longest cooldown with high range and high heat


What would you think of PPCs when the dmg/heat/cd would be increased by about 20% and speed reduced accordingly (e.g. ~12 dmg PPC, 18dmg HPPC but with 700-800 velocity)?

[The6thMessenger]

Reno Blade, on 22 June 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

I want PPCs to feel strong and meaningful, but then i fear to over-buff them and we have PPFLD meta again.
At least imho PPCs should be the AC20 of energy weapons.

I think Yeonnes point of Aiming time vs laser burn time is a good point that needs to be considered when tweaking weapons.
It's one of the main reasons why lasers are usually easier than PPFLD weapons.

I was even thinking giving PPCs more dmg, but then reducing velocity to make it "harder" to aim.
But with this in mind, we would need to push beam durations by similar %.
e.g. if the velocity is only around 900, the beams need to be 1.25 - 2.0s long or something.


Well, or adding more splash for a higher total damage (e.g. 130% dmg), but that's not really something people want from a PPFLD weapon, as Yeonnes pointed out.
Otherwise I would even suggest to put PPCs to something more like 6+4+4 and HPPC to 10+5+5 with LPPCs just doing flat 5 dmg but slight RoF buff to something like 3.5s cd


But without Splash,(besides CERPPC) the only real changes to differentiate the types, I would see feasible is cd&heat:
- Keep velocity between 900 and 1200 and remove velocity quirks.
- LPPC with 3.5s cd, 4.5 heat -> for slightly higher dps than PPC
- SNPPC with 3.5s cd, 8 heat -> for lowest heat with lowest range
- PPC with 4.0s cd, 9 heat -> for average range, cd and heat
- ERPPC with 4.5s cd, 12 heat (1800m/s velocity) -> for highest speed and range with high heat
- HPPC with 5.0s cd, 13 heat -> for long cd, but high dmg for average heat

- CERPPC with 5.5s cd, 14 heat -> for longest cooldown with high range and high heat


What would you think of PPCs when the dmg/heat/cd would be increased by about 20% and speed reduced accordingly (e.g. ~12 dmg PPC, 18dmg HPPC but with 700-800 velocity)?

I don't think you'd find support with the splash type PPCs. You certainly don't have mine.

[The6thMessenger]

Quote

PPC Capacitor:

+ Damage
+ Velocity
+ CD
+ Charge Time
- DPS

The mechanism of how PPC capacitor would work is that, it will have + 1 ton and + 1 slot like Artemis and Missile Weapons, and costing more even. As a weapon, it would be literally a high-heat, low range, unlimited ammo, light-weight Gauss. CD is calculated by the DPS/ton of equivalent damage profile balanced by the difference in weight, minus 1 for the charge time.

The Idea of PPC Capacitor is that it increases the heat and damage, but if that is added vanilla with our weapon system then it will literally be unbalanced because we have weapon systems doing superior damage/ton with account for LPPC, and that's something we have to address, and so i chose to address it with severely reduced DPS and charge time, also reduced GH.

The Philosophy of PPC Capacitor is that, it would be a stand-in for doing good damage at a poke, but it would have worse DPS than their counterpart. It is only built for pure poking in mind. When push comes to shove, the low HPS would be great when weapons are being used as secondary to other weapons.

LPPC + Capacitor:

4 Ton
3 Slot

Damage: 10
Speed: 1400
Heat: 10
Range [m]: 90 - 540 - 1080 [Progressive Damage Min-Range]
Cooldown [s]: 6
Charge Time [s]: 1
DPS: 1.4285
GH Limit: 2

PPC + Capacitor:

8 Ton
4 Slot

Damage: 15
Speed: 1400
Heat: 14
Range [m]: 90 - 540 - 1080 [Progressive Damage Min-Range]
Cooldown [s]: 5.75
Charge Time [s]: 1
DPS: 2.2222
GH Limit: 2

SN-PPC + Capacitor:

7 Ton
3 Slot

Damage: 15
Speed: 1400
Heat: 14
Range [m]: 270 - 720
Cooldown [s]: 5.0
Charge Time [s]: 1
DPS: 2.5
GH Limit: 2

ER-PPC + Capacitor:


8 Ton
4 Slot

Damage: 15
Speed: 2400
Heat: 17.5
Range [m]: 810 - 1620
Cooldown [s]: 6
Charge Time [s]: 1
DPS: 2.1428
GH Limit: 2

HPPC + Capacitor:

11 Ton
5 Slot

Damage: 20
Speed: 1400
Heat: 18.5
Range [m]: 540 - 1080 [Progressive Damage Min-Range]
Cooldown [s]: 7.5
Charge Time [s]: 1.0
DPS: 2.3529
GH Limit: 2

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 June 2018 - 03:34 PM.

[Reno Blade]

The6thMessenger, on 22 June 2018 - 01:51 PM, said:

I don't think you'd find support with the splash type PPCs. You certainly don't have mine.

Well thanks for ignoring half of the post that actually does not involve spread at all.

Quote

But without Splash,(besides CERPPC) the only real changes to differentiate the types, I would see feasible is cd&heat:
- Keep velocity between 900 and 1200 and remove velocity quirks -> to keep the weapon difficult to master
- LPPC with 3.5s cd, 4.5 heat -> for slightly higher dps than PPC
- SNPPC with 3.5s cd, 8 heat -> for lowest heat with lowest range
- PPC with 4.0s cd, 9 heat -> for average range, cd and heat
- ERPPC with 4.5s cd, 12 heat (1800m/s velocity) -> for highest speed and range with high heat
- HPPC with 5.0s cd, 13 heat -> for long cd, but high dmg for average heat

- CERPPC with 5.5s cd, 14 heat -> for longest cooldown with high range and high heat


What would you think of PPCs when the dmg/heat/cd would be increased by about 20% and speed reduced accordingly (e.g. ~12 dmg PPC, 18dmg HPPC but with 700-800 velocity)?

A bit more laser nerfs (some beam duration +20%) and the PPCs as suggested would be interesting and useful again.

edit:
Capacitors = PPC with charge that have constant heat/second while charged.

Edited by Reno Blade, 24 June 2018 - 03:25 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Reno Blade, on 24 June 2018 - 03:25 AM, said:

Well thanks for ignoring half of the post that actually does not involve spread at all.

Okay. The LPPC is barely worth taking, it's barely differentiated. People who have good access to PPC would just take it over LPPC for more alpha. The rest is more or less the same with my concept.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 June 2018 - 03:52 AM.

[Khobai]

Not all buffs need be numeric stat buffs either.

PPCs should get a HUD disruption skill in the weapon skill tree. That would help make PPCs feel different from other weapons.

When you get hit with a PPC it should reset all of your sensor info, prevent you from targeting anything, disrupt ECM, and scramble your HUD and make it go all wobbly for a few seconds.

there should also be an EMP hardened skill in the operations/sensor tree to counteract HUD disruption. Or just roll the EMP hardened skill into an existing skill like target decay. That way LRM boats wouldnt have to pay extra points.


As for PPC capacitors... Thats a prime example of how the chargeup mechanic should be used proper. Chargeup should only be used for weapons with variable levels of charge. It should not be used for things like gauss rifles.

I would be fine with PPC capacitors being added to the game. Although there are potential abuses with combinations like LPPC+PPC capacitor that would need to be balanced somehow. But its nothing that cant be figured out.

also the CERPPC is gonna have to do more than 10 PPFLD if IS get PPC capacitors. or maybe just give the CERPPC a free built-in capacitor instead of splash damage (not canon but it would balance it better with IS getting PPC capacitors)

Edited by Khobai, 24 June 2018 - 09:23 AM.

[GweNTLeR]

Well, with (ER)LL having such a long burn time and LPL being a really doubtful choice now, I think that PPCs in general have their niche.
HOWEVER, I belive that all PPCs exept HPPCs and C-ERPPCS should have their GH limit raised. IMO that is enough, since 30 PPFLD is nothing special today.
As for capacitors - well, if they would require charge up like gauss - why not?

Edited by GweNTLeR, 24 June 2018 - 09:28 AM.

[Dogstar]

While I agree with the obvious fact that PPCs are pretty crappy at the moment I don't think this does _anything_ to improve the situation.

Just like the 'community balance' thread all it does is tweak things a little without _really_ changing anything

[MechaBattler]

Dogstar, on 24 June 2018 - 11:32 AM, said:

While I agree with the obvious fact that PPCs are pretty crappy at the moment I don't think this does _anything_ to improve the situation.

Just like the 'community balance' thread all it does is tweak things a little without _really_ changing anything

They're not going to rework the whole game for the sake of PPCs. Stat changes is realistic.

[evilauthor]

You know, I get the feeling that if PPC Capacitors are added into MWO, the same update would also give us Blue Shield. Or at least give Inner Sphere mechs Blue Shield. Halve all that PPC damaged, baby!

[Reno Blade]

Hey, overall the PPCs are good weapons, but the alternatives are just too good.

You can no longer user Gauss+PPC at the same volley, so the advantage of twist-n-shoot is reduced.
AC5/10 are still very hot/heavy to combine with PPCs, so the "classic" 2x PPC 2x AC5 mechs are still hot and hard to master.

On the easy side, we have the LargeLaser + MedLaser + Gauss combo that works much better and can go from 2E to 9E hardpoints + 1-2B hardpoints, so pretty much any chassis can use some form of laser groups.


I would rather get lasers down (Ghost Heat Large+Meds, and duration) so that they are not the "easiest" weapon combo anymore.
It would be enough to have PPFLD (including all PPCs, and even UAC20s) competitive again.
A few CD tweaks for LPPC/SNPPC as mentioned here, and done.

[The6thMessenger]

Reno Blade, on 25 June 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

Hey, overall the PPCs are good weapons, but the alternatives are just too good.

Exactly the point. Because poking is just a matter of doing the most damage with the least amount of time, invariably it's the one with the best damage people will go after.

Give them the stats that will allow them to go beyond poking, then they will have better relevance. Granted, yes these weapons need better heat efficiency to mix with other weapons.

[Khobai]

the game wasnt fun when PPCs were good weapons though. 35+ PPFLD poptart builds ruined the game once before. Going back to that would be a huge mistake.

thats why I think the key to fixing PPCs lies with giving them non-quantifiable abilities like HUD disruption

statwise I dont think PPCs should ever be as good as they once were. but PPCs can be given special abilities like HUD disruption to make them more useful without buffing their stats too much (can buff them a little just not to where they used to be).


I also think the ghost heat limit on non-heavy PPCs should be raised to 3 since theyre linked with gauss now.


And yeah obviously lasers need nerfs too, especially on the clan side. CERML doing 7 damage for 1 ton is still outrageously OP.

Edited by Khobai, 25 June 2018 - 02:25 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 25 June 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

the game wasnt fun when PPCs were good weapons though. 35+ PPFLD poptart builds ruined the game once before. Going back to that would be a huge mistake.

True, going back. We're going forward. This does not try to buff the current PPCs, these tweak the PPCs.

Khobai, on 25 June 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

thats why I think the key to fixing PPCs lies with giving them non-quantifiable abilities like HUD disruption

True. But they can also fill actual roles.

Khobai, on 25 June 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

statwise I dont think PPCs should ever be as good as they once were. but PPCs can be given special abilities like HUD disruption to make them more useful without buffing their stats too much (can buff them a little just not to where they used to be).

Never was trying to do that. I'm trying to differentiate PPCs here.

Khobai, on 25 June 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

And yeah obviously lasers need nerfs too, especially on the clan side. CERML doing 7 damage for 1 ton is still outrageously OP.

Stop spamming man.

[Reno Blade]

Khobai, on 25 June 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

the game wasnt fun when PPCs were good weapons though. 35+ PPFLD poptart builds ruined the game once before. Going back to that would be a huge mistake.

thats why I think the key to fixing PPCs lies with giving them non-quantifiable abilities like HUD disruption

statwise I dont think PPCs should ever be as good as they once were. but PPCs can be given special abilities like HUD disruption to make them more useful without buffing their stats too much (can buff them a little just not to where they used to be).


I also think the ghost heat limit on non-heavy PPCs should be raised to 3 since theyre linked with gauss now.


And yeah obviously lasers need nerfs too, especially on the clan side. CERML doing 7 damage for 1 ton is still outrageously OP.

It sounds contradictive to me.
On one hand, PPCs were OP (because too easy to use) and on the other hand you want 3 PPCs without GH?

I think we can keep the GH limits, but reduce overall heat a bit.
This would also lower the GH penalties at the same time, so you can even use 3, but still get a few heat extra.

I still think the PPCs are in a good place and don't need much besides a good nerf to (ALL) the lasers (which are like 80% easier to use).
If the lasers are only 40% easier to use, the PPFLD vs easy beam choice is about as good as it can get.

[Grus]

Also, can we remove the slash from cERPPC and since no more splash (5 damage) reduce heat and cool down by 1/3 ... ty.

[Khobai]

Reno Blade, on 26 June 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

On one hand, PPCs were OP (because too easy to use) and on the other hand you want 3 PPCs without GH?

3 PPCs was never op because of the high heat.

it was PPC/Gauss that was op. Because the heat was very managable.

but PPC/Gauss is disallowed now.

Quote

I think we can keep the GH limits, but reduce overall heat a bit.
This would also lower the GH penalties at the same time, so you can even use 3, but still get a few heat extra.

I think id rather see them at GH limit of 3.

allowing PPCs to do 30 damage is not going to be a problem

not when clan laser vomit does upwards of 60 damage, even with the suggested -1 damage nerf on CERML.

Edited by Khobai, 26 June 2018 - 11:56 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

What if PPC has equal damage/heat with Large Laser? Similarly ERPPC has same damage/heat with large laser?

The thing is that PPC is already competing with tonnage.

[Yosharian]

Conversation overheard between two Star League techs

A: "Hey Joe, you know how autocannons are more difficult to hit the target with, but use less heat than lasers?"
B: "Yeah?"
A: "I was thinking, what if we made a weapon that combines the projectile nature of the autocannon, with the added heat of an energy weapon?"
B: "....Bobby, that's a stupid idea. Shut the hell up."

[The6thMessenger]

Yosharian, on 04 July 2018 - 07:11 PM, said:

Conversation overheard between two Star League techs

A: "Hey Joe, you know how autocannons are more difficult to hit the target with, but use less heat than lasers?"
B: "Yeah?"
A: "I was thinking, what if we made a weapon that combines the projectile nature of the autocannon, with the added heat of an energy weapon?"
B: "....Bobby, that's a stupid idea. Shut the hell up."

Did Bobby ever mentioned that it's kinda lighter and has unlimited ammo?