377 replies to this topic

[Anastasius Foht]

Kroete, on 28 June 2018 - 03:27 AM, said:

Even assault lrmboats are good enough to get to the 90-95%,
depends on how you build and use them.

Maddogs are still good enough for lrms, but you must sacrifice something to get enough tubes,
40/45 tubes are sometimes a little to low to fight against the mass ams you meet in some matches.
But with "normal" ams covering, even a catapult with only 30-40 tubes can do good.

About the maps:
Rubbelite and solaris need some more work with lrms,
alpine, polar and caustic are easy and the rest is ok for me.

Played 100 games for event and guess what -zero alpines map was chosen, it is as rare as Volcano map. 30 tubes is enough, you played not lurm boat but balanced mechs that can defend themselfs in close combat, i even kill KIng Crab with my Archer once cuz lasors x6 is real deal.

[HammerMaster]

https://mwo.gamepedi...g_Range_Missile
This poorly maintained and ERRONEOUS posting by mwowiki (not Sarna btw) , I could see where you are getting your MISINFORMATION.

[Mystere]

Wil McCullough, on 27 June 2018 - 11:45 PM, said:

For every one willing to take.up the challenge, there's gonna be twenty "munchkins" in clan assaults waiting to squush them like so many coke cans

Lol

The results of the Clan vs. IS tests of old (i.e. the Clans got slapped around) showed promise.

[Anastasius Foht]

HammerMaster, on 28 June 2018 - 04:31 AM, said:

https://mwo.gamepedi...g_Range_Missile
This poorly maintained and ERRONEOUS posting by mwowiki (not Sarna btw) , I could see where you are getting your MISINFORMATION.

Long Range Missile 15
Ammo per Ton: 8
Thats disturbing info

[Mystere]

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

After reading most of this thread (and others like it), here's what it all seems to boil down to:

People hate LRMs and call them "anti-fun" because of the following reasons:

1) They don't know how to counter them

2) They get caught out of position alot

3) They can't shoot back at LRM boats in cover and it pisses them off

4) When being shot by LRMs, they have to either take damage or stay in cover, and that pisses them off.

5) They have to assign tonnage to anti-LRM things like ECM, and AMS, and it gimps their mech loadouts cose' they can't have even more absurd in-your-face alphas, so that pisses them off.

6) They want LRM boat players to be their meat shields, and when they don't get that, it pisses them off.

7) Most of the top-tier gods hate on LRM boaters for the above reasons, so they jump on the peer pressure bandwagon and hate on lurmers cose' it's easy to do so and feel all big and stronk.

8) LRM boats in deep cover 900 meters away are hard to smash in the face with 270 meters or less weapons, so that pisses them off

9) LRMs are great at kill stealing, and great at scoring KMDDs, so that takes the glory away from people, and pisses them off

10) LRMs are a "give them nothing and take them of everything" type weapon, and some people don't like to be taken of everything, so it pisses them off..

Conclusion - there is absolutely nothing wrong with LRMs. If you know how to use them, you can have loads of fun. If you know how to counter them, you can have loads of fun.

BUT

If you're a spoiled, individualistic player who only wants to face-smash, and wants to completely disregard the concept of artillery, then LRMs will not be fun for you.

I'm sure first-line trench grunts in the army, who are taking shell fire, mortar fire or guided missile fire probably also think those weapons are noob weapons and OP weapons, and that the guys firing artillery should come and share armor.

Golden!

Wil McCullough, on 28 June 2018 - 01:02 AM, said:

Mwo universe is in a state where armor far surpasses advances in weaponry. It takes a lot of concentrated lurm fire on a target over an extended period of time to take it down.

The MW4 intro disagrees with you.

[Mystere]

TWIAFU, on 28 June 2018 - 03:48 AM, said:

And our satisfaction is targeting and killing people like you over and over and reading the salt.

Don't complain, cry, or whine anymore. Don't ask to be separated from others. Don't ask for special treatment.

Play your lerms, have fun as will the lerm hunters cause it is fun to end yours.

Truth be told, it has been my observation that most of the whining is from people on the receiving end of LRMs. Most of the "whining", if you can even call that, from the LRM carrier side is about the feast-or-famine nature of the weapon.

The OP is a case in point.

So to everyone: Try to enjoy, if you can.

Edited by Mystere, 28 June 2018 - 04:52 AM.

[Mystere]

HammerMaster, on 28 June 2018 - 04:31 AM, said:

https://mwo.gamepedi...g_Range_Missile
This poorly maintained and ERRONEOUS posting by mwowiki (not Sarna btw) , I could see where you are getting your MISINFORMATION.

Obviously I am missing something. As such, I'm just going to ask: What misinformation?

Edited by Mystere, 28 June 2018 - 04:54 AM.

[HammerMaster]

Hahahhahahahah!

[Mystere]

Quote

mis·in·for·ma·tion


/ˌmisinfərˈmāSH(ə)n/


noun

• 1. false or inaccurate information, especially that which is deliberately intended to deceive: "nuclear matters are often entangled in a web of secrecy and misinformation"

The underlined portion is what I meant.

Edited by Mystere, 28 June 2018 - 05:10 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

Mystere, on 28 June 2018 - 04:48 AM, said:

The MW4 intro disagrees with you.

mw4 intro disagrees with a lot of things including what constitutes good acting. haha!

[HammerMaster]

Continuing to balance LRMs on it's only indirect use and should suck. That's deliberate deception sir. Because pgi improperly gave us free c3 lockons in 2012 adds to the confusion. Also explain how Artemis only functions in LOS? Direct fire in LOS it's INTENDED Function!

Edited by HammerMaster, 28 June 2018 - 05:27 AM.

[HammerMaster]

BTW. Are we disagreeing or just word play?

[Mystere]

HammerMaster, on 28 June 2018 - 05:38 AM, said:

BTW. Are we disagreeing or just word play?

I was actually just asking a very simple question for clarification purposes.

Edited by Mystere, 28 June 2018 - 06:08 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

HammerMaster, on 28 June 2018 - 05:26 AM, said:

Continuing to balance LRMs on it's only indirect use and should suck. That's deliberate deception sir. Because pgi improperly gave us free c3 lockons in 2012 adds to the confusion. Also explain how Artemis only functions in LOS? Direct fire in LOS it's INTENDED Function!

take it up with pgi then. none of us here are pgi representatives.

[Michelle Branch]

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

After reading most of this thread (and others like it), here's what it all seems to boil down to:

People hate LRMs and call them "anti-fun" because of the following reasons:

1) They don't know how to counter them

I just sit and stare at them.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

2) They get caught out of position alot

Except when I'm Narced on polar amongst my team and the only thing protecting me is half a hill on polar.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

3) They can't shoot back at LRM boats in cover and it pisses them off

"GEE, I SURE LOVE BEING HIT BY MISSILES!" Like...Duh?

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

4) When being shot by LRMs, they have to either take damage or stay in cover, and that pisses them off.

Because nothing is more irritating when one LRM boat is trying to rain some spread damage on you, and your cockpit shakes like crazy and the framerate can even plummet unless your PC like mine is a beast.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

5) They have to assign tonnage to anti-LRM things like ECM, and AMS, and it gimps their mech loadouts cose' they can't have even more absurd in-your-face alphas, so that pisses them off.

AMS - No, never, wouldn't touch.
ECM - Yes, because people ignore things they can't press R to for some reason.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

6) They want LRM boat players to be their meat shields, and when they don't get that, it pisses them off.

Imagine this game I had to go through.

I'm on Grim Nexus, in a Fafnir going a wonderful 50kph. Somehow, I don't know how, I'm leading the entirety of the way. In my lance though, there's a MK-II and a SuperNova. So I make it all the way to G9 and do what I can to knock out what I can. I 1 shot a hellspawn who made the unfortunate mistake to run in front of me, core out several other mechs like the BLK, an Enforcer, a God Urbie and a Marauder IIC. Me and the team eventually get pooped on because, well, potato's. Of all the potato's that piss me off the most though, are these two assaults who we're the final two, full armor, never touched.
To add salt to my steak, the MK-II couldn't aim if his life depended. A Blood Asp that couldn't be more red in the center, and missed one entire ST, making a bit easy to shoot CT, managed to tank the missiles by torso twisting it's remaining CT. What does our hero, the MK-II? Does he use his med-pulse lasers he slapped on for giggles? Yes, he actually does, but misses...4 times, and hits the legs. What...In...The...Actual...****...Did...I...Witness?

Okay, real talk. I don't really care if you boat LRMs. But at least try and contribute armor. Toss an Arty down too if you can, contribute in some meaningful way rather than having 180 tons sit in the back holding one button down. I know some folks will be like "But not all LRM boats are like that!"
No, their not, but most are, and it's beyond irritating to deal with when you're on the losing side, and that one assault mech doesn't even have leg damage from running into someone.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

7) Most of the top-tier gods hate on LRM boaters for the above reasons, so they jump on the peer pressure bandwagon and hate on lurmers cose' it's easy to do so and feel all big and stronk.

We hate on them because they're unreliable and completely poopy when compared to direct fire.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

8) LRM boats in deep cover 900 meters away are hard to smash in the face with 270 meters or less weapons, so that pisses them off

If they're 900 meters away trying to throw LRMs, then they're uber bad. It's so easy to get in cover by the time they're even half way. Unless that person being targeted by LRMs is afk or a shoe on the keyboard, they won't hit wiener.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

9) LRMs are great at kill stealing, and great at scoring KMDDs, so that takes the glory away from people, and pisses them off

They're great damage padders, not so much at securing kills.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

10) LRMs are a "give them nothing and take them of everything" type weapon, and some people don't like to be taken of everything, so it pisses them off..

Lol wut? Now you're just making up reasons.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

Conclusion - Unless you know how to share armor, and you can reliable aim at CT, and capable of pressing more than one button, don't use LRMs. There's an obvious reason why you get so much hate. It's abundantly clear why most of you are hated. Get a clue.

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

BUT

If you're a spoiled, individualistic player who only wants to face-smash, and wants to completely disregard the concept of artillery, then LRMs will not be fun for you.

Well, sadly, LRM's are not Artillery. Artillery is more like...A Long Tom that actually does stuff.

I

Vellron2005, on 27 June 2018 - 11:48 PM, said:

'm sure first-line trench grunts in the army, who are taking shell fire, mortar fire or guided missile fire probably also think those weapons are noob weapons and OP weapons, and that the guys firing artillery should come and share armor.

No, actually.

What we would do is call for air support, either an Apache or a Kiawah to identify the enemy. If the Apache/Kiawah can take them out, they will, otherwise, once we get an 8 to 10 digit grid, we roll out, find them, then kill them. We then go back to the FOB or COP or strongpoint, dependent on your level of POG or FOBBITness, go to the chow hall and bang the terps.

All the while this happening, when we do roll out and go find and kill them, the only people that stay behind are vehicle crew meant to take us to point A to point B and to serve as our extraction when the mission/patrol is over. They're not "raining" anything on anyone, because that's ******* stupid.

[Tesunie]

Wil McCullough, on 27 June 2018 - 11:13 PM, said:

What you said is the main reason why "use as intended" is a bad argument in discussing weapon balance.
Cos min-max-y players dun give two hoots about "intention". The gauss issue in mwo actually very closely resembles counterstrike's issue with the awp, which for everyone unaware of what it is, is an expensive sniper rifle that kills in a single shot.

Players didn't use it as a sniper rifle. Players used it as a super shotgun. Was it more effective as a super shotgun? No. But it was fun.

In mwo, low tier players are using lurms as almost solely a long range indirect fire weapon. Just because hammermaster doesn't want to call it an indirect, long rangr weapon doesn't mean it stops being one.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, you get the idea.

Thing is, "use as intended" in some cases might not match how it's "used by players". The case of the Gauss rifle is a prime one. As stated, it was being used as a brawling weapon due to it's high pin point damage and low heat (and could double as a sniper weapon outside brawls). PGI adjusted the weapon so it better matched it's "intended use".

Now, I'm not going to say LRMs shouldn't be able to indirect. They should. It's a strength they have. However, they should be better at direct fire (even without Artemis), as that is (if we are still a game based on Battletech of course) what they primarily are, direct fire weapons.

In TT (as a reference to source material), LRMs had no penalties for shooting directly besides what all other direct fire weapons did. They could shoot indirectly, but certain situations needed to be met. As we have C3 built in, a lot of those restrictions becomes lifted. However, just shooting LRMs indirectly was a +1 to accuracy (harder to hit). I believe for every height of terrain it passed over was another +1 to accuracy. Then, if the spotter shot/moved, that would be another +1. Not to mention the LRM user's own base penalties for possible movement and range penalties.

In this game, it could be shown better as either worse tracking (ich), or more than likely larger spread when fired indirectly. This would give direct fired LRMs a better place.


However, just because it was so in TT also doesn't mean it has to or will work in this game. Thus why I reference to the original source material for discussions, but then also address how it is in this game. In here, LRMs are as much an indirect weapon as they are direct fire. If you have Artemis, then it's more direct fire. Due to factors (homing/indirect), LRMs can never be "as good" as pure direct fire weapons, otherwise then they start to become THE direct fire weapon.

I will comment, I find it's strength to be it's flexibility. I don't find them useful when they are fired indirectly only (typically at long ranges), and are best when used within a team around 200-600m away from the enemy. (I also love to use them with JJs... but that's probably a different story.) I also find them poor weapons to boat, as their utility starts to hit a cap after so many are placed into a team, so I load up on plenty of direct fire weapons as well.

Wil McCullough, on 28 June 2018 - 01:02 AM, said:

The weapon is a low skill floor, low skill ceiling kinda weapon. It is this combination you seem unable to understand despite repeated attempts at explaining to you.

I actually find LRMs to be "easy to use" but "very hard to master" weapons. To just use them (get lock, spam shots) isn't all that hard. To use them to their effectiveness on the other hand (make sure they aren't blocked by a hills/buildings, will the missiles land before they get into cover, is it worth thowing bells and whistles into their ears to keep them under cover, etc) takes a lot more work than many people realize. (Predicting arcs of the missiles ls a lot harder typically than "can I see them" is. LRMs you have to think as much vertical as you do horizontal. Most direct fire weapons, you only need to worry about horizontal/directly in front of your guns.)

So, once again, it kinda depends upon what you expect out of the weapon. Spray and pray? Yup, low skill then. Actual contributing fire? A bit more difficult.

Anastasius Foht, on 28 June 2018 - 04:42 AM, said:

Long Range Missile 15
Ammo per Ton: 8
Thats disturbing info

That's TT, and that "number of volleys", not "number of missiles". So, that's 120 missiles per ton of ammo, which is correct for TT values.



Remember people, we have double health from TT in this game base on all mechs. So ammo counts were adjusted to help match that.

[HammerMaster]

https://en.m.wikiped...ell_OH-58_Kiowa
BTW. The infantry hates anyone not infantry.
Non-infantry thinks infantry is troglodytes.
All other non-infantry supports infantry whether they like it or not.11B!

Edited by HammerMaster, 28 June 2018 - 06:56 AM.

[Tesunie]

DrtyDshSoap, on 28 June 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

No, their not, but most are,...

That's part of the problem when ever I discuss LRMs. People always refer to the "most common way they are used", which also happens to typically be "the worst way to use them".

Just because it's the most common way to use it certainly doesn't make it the best nor only way to use them. All too often, I come across people upset with LRM users because the bulk uses them so... frustratingly bad.

I'm an LRM user. I don't boat them. Even I cringe when I see people using LRMs in this manner, and it pains me every time I see them shooting their LRMs outside of range, or into an obvious hill, or that building over there clearly in the way of their arc, or within minimum range (and they brought no back up weapons at all)... So yeah...

[HammerMaster]

Tide pods are intended to be used in my washing machine. Gen Z finds it better to consume them and be sickened. Should we balance Tide pods for Gen Z eating them or keep them as intended washing my drawers?

[Novakaine]

Once again I apologize for last nights sheninigans.