41 replies to this topic

[Abaddun]

With the next mech pack right around the corner, I have my hopes up for the berserker, even the likelihood is incredibly small. However this got me wondering if it would be possible to recreate mech melee in MWO.

First of all, I have to tackle a few elephants to the ground.

Animations: probably the biggest problem would be the animations, it would not be easy to implement a mech swinging a punch or a hatchet in real time, but assuming BATTLETECH uses the same architecture, but scaled down, we might already have the required animations on hand.

Designing the hurt boxes: this would be fairly simple, create a hurt box around the edge of a hatchet or fist that triggers on a button press. Contact with another mech should deal damage to first contact point, then shunt them like a JJ landling so as to avoid clipping. That animation may look a bit awkward, but it can probably be done.

Balance: The great and terrible B word. A simple solution, restrict it to a few mechs in each weight class, see how it performs, expand if needed. Funnily enough, the melee mechs have an example in each class aside from the light mechs which seems appropriate.Damage will scale off weight band, to reflect the difference in mechanics between tabletop and simulator, 2 damage per 5 tons provides a fair and reasonable tradeoff for the proximity required to inflict damage and the rate damage can be inflicted.

These are just my musings. Thankyou for your time.

[Humpday]

Not that it would happen but Melee weapons would have to be single or up to 3-5 uses before the weapons becomes unusable.

Give me my Axeman!

[MechaBattler]

Isn't part of the issue hit collision isn't well implemented?

[KoalaBrownie]

Abaddun, on 02 July 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

Animations: probably the biggest problem would be the animations, it would not be easy to implement a mech swinging a punch or a hatchet in real time, but assuming BATTLETECH uses the same architecture, but scaled down, we might already have the required animations on hand.

Nope. Animation would be the easiest part of the implementation and an artist could have something rough in a few hours.

The biggest problem is the interaction between the two mechs. First is range, how far can a hatchet reach? In order to make melee satisfying, you not only have to hit mechs but you have to see the hatchet connect for the player to get that satisfaction. If hatchets only reached as far as point blank range, the range where you're so close to the guy that he fills your screen and its just a bunch of chaos until you move apart or someone dies- then is that going to be satisfying? Are you going to see your attacks and enjoy them?

And if it reaches farther than that, then what happens at close range? Your arm crashes through the other mech? Doesn't hit? Doesn't sound super fun.

Melee in first and third-person games is generally done in one of two ways. There's the Halo/COD way where you just stick out an elbow and hit whoever's in front of you and close enough. The difference, these melee attacks are almost instantaneous and players have full direction of movement (not tank controls).

The second use, in such things as take-downs is that two character models get linked together from a certain direction and then a pre-canned animation happens with very specific attacks. The problem is blending the two characters so they're at the start position of the animation, and also, the huge huge problem that often these animations are specific to these two characters. So- it's not feasible.

What melee would probably look like, is one of those Medieval combat games like Chivalry? Where you're just swinging your sword and the guy kinda gets hit except instead of going in and out and strafing, you're just going in, and then bumping into eachother a bunch, then awkwardly swinging again, and again until its resolved.

Personally I don't think running a mech where your main attack is to get up into someone's face and awkwardly bump into them for 15 seconds is going to look great. And its certainly not going to look satisfying either. It's gonna look jank as heck for both you and everyone else on the field.

[HammerMaster]

No! All or nothing.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Bring back Dragon Bowling.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

the thing is, this is easier to impliment than most like to admit.

The melee attack should be tied to an invisible "shot" IE you treat the attack like any other weapon, scaled to each mech via the distance of arm travel with no damage dropoff distance [full damge from 0-10m or so depending on arm length]

You then design an animation around this shot, adjusting shot speed to match the animation of the mech "striking" another mech.

you then decide if there's a response animation, or if it's treated like any other weapon.

BOOM, melee in Mechwarrior Online.

[Nightbird]

If you've ever sparred, you do have to be so close the other guy fills your fov. More so if you're in big mechs but your eyes aren't further apart.

[Asym]

I've been joking about this topic for a long time ! Solaris should have a melee component: ramming at least ! I favor welded on lances and spikes as "add on" that if used in ramming, cause greater damage.

After all, Solaris is suppose to be "Rock-and-'Sock'em-Robots" and the whole point of that game was delivering physical blows until the head pops off..... Isn't that what Solaris is created to be ? A slow, small space, arena, FPS that takes a long time to play as you blow tiny pieces of the opponent and they stop where there's literally nothing left???

Let's see PFI nerf a lance welded on to an Arm.....

[CygnusX7]

Give it to the Dragon so it can properly play its part in Dragon Bowling.

[MeiSooHaityu]

An Axman would be nice. It was the BattleMech of choice for Adam Steiner for quite some time, so you know it has to be good .

I'd also like to see a Hatchetman as well. Not only would it be nice for this game, but BattleTech could use it for it's timeline as well (and that game does have melee).

[M3560 35003663]

Melee would be nice.

[Spheroid]

Melee should never be added to this game. All weapons have a practical combat range which must be met in order to be viable. Notice how flamers, heavy machine guns and micropulse all have farther ranges then their original values? The super gimped range was not condusive to effective combat.

If sub ninety meter range was not viable how do you think sub ten meter range would work? The answer is it would not.

Also the very act of melee screws the team. In order to close you must break cover. If you break cover you die and the team is down one. If you face hug you block shots of teammates ,increasing not decreasing TTK. Melee would be very bad for this game.

Edited by Spheroid, 03 July 2018 - 08:27 AM.

[Vesper11]

Melee must always be added in every game! There's nothing more satisfying than shoving it up enemy face. Imagine kicking that pesky light that thought hugging an assault was a good idea, or ramming into side with a linebacker, or an extra damage hook after a torso twist! The problem is making them not-clunky/usable/satisfying, **** like damage, self-damage and stun (to promote risk-reward) can be adjusted later but as long as it's done right it's a thing that will make maneuvering more brutal and large engine mechs way more dangerous, and will shows those big stupid assaults without arms to not boss lighter mechs around!
Even if melee will block shots it will also block enemy shots so a correct use/mech will have an advantage and no one stop you from attacking from a flank.

Edited by Vesper11, 03 July 2018 - 09:05 AM.

[Abaddun]

Well for most mechs, melee was historically used used as a last resort. I think we've all been in a position where we are running hot but just need to push through 20 more damage to avoid death. It will also provide some relief to mechs to find themselves fighting within their minimum engagement range.

For the mechs like the axeman or berserker I think a careful balance of armour and mobility quirks would help facilitate the melee specialist playstyle.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Melee would be so nice if it was possible...


Actually piloting an Atlas and viewing a kick like that from the first person perspective would be pretty cool. I'm not sure how a melee attack like that would be controlled or aimed (given all the other controls a person has to manage), but if they could figure it out, it would be amazing .

[Chortles]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 03 July 2018 - 05:53 AM, said:

the thing is, this is easier to impliment than most like to admit.

The melee attack should be tied to an invisible "shot" IE you treat the attack like any other weapon, scaled to each mech via the distance of arm travel with no damage dropoff distance [full damge from 0-10m or so depending on arm length]

You then design an animation around this shot, adjusting shot speed to match the animation of the mech "striking" another mech.

you then decide if there's a response animation, or if it's treated like any other weapon.

BOOM, melee in Mechwarrior Online.

Sounds easy to implement a basic melee mechanic, but how do you make it work well and be balanced? Here are some questions that need to be asked about melee:

Does the mech's animation move the entire body similar to HBS Battletech animation? This would involve severe camera shake and would not make it worth using. Otherwise, it would look cheap like Rock'em Sock'em Robots.

Can the mechs move or run while performing a melee attack? If yes, this would be abused by fast mechs. If no, you are now standing still for enemies to get free shots at you making it not worth using.

Does the mech need to wind up for a melee attack? If yes, the chance to miss would be too high for it to be worth using. If no, Rock'em Sock'em Robots.

Can you melee while shooting your guns? If yes, that would raise alpha damage through the roof potentially killing mechs in one alpha. If no, it won't be worth using since your guns are more reliable and safer.

Edited by Chortles, 03 July 2018 - 10:54 AM.

[HammerMaster]

Melee rules clearly outlined in the books need to be observed.
The hbs animation is over telegraphed but it's a good starting point.
Can they run? Why not. (There ought to be reticlule shake at any speed low/low lots/fast)
Wind up? Some yes again not as much as hbs animation
Melee with guns? As per rules off top of my head. Punch can occur IF you did not fire arm weapons. Kick doesn't matter BUT you can fall on a miss I believe.

AGAIN the ground work is already laid out by pnp rules. We don't need another pgi inspired work around of their own creation.

[KoalaBrownie]

HammerMaster, on 03 July 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

AGAIN the ground work is already laid out by pnp rules. We don't need another pgi inspired work around of their own creation.

PNP rules also say your shots should hit random locations and that UAC doesn't jam, but burns out its firing circuits leaving it inoperative for the rest of the game.

Just because it's there, doesn't mean it works in the context of this game.

[Humpday]

Spheroid, on 03 July 2018 - 08:14 AM, said:

Melee should never be added to this game. All weapons have a practical combat range which must be met in order to be viable. Notice how flamers, heavy machine guns and micropulse all have farther ranges then their original values? The super gimped range was not condusive to effective combat.

If sub ninety meter range was not viable how do you think sub ten meter range would work? The answer is it would not.

Also the very act of melee screws the team. In order to close you must break cover. If you break cover you die and the team is down one. If you face hug you block shots of teammates ,increasing not decreasing TTK. Melee would be very bad for this game.

I would imagine it would be more of a defensive actions...ie people trying to face hug you.
Of course the reality is, I would still YOLO and run face first into someone trying to hack at them.

More so now that I no longer give a f*cks.