125 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 July 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

PGI could either do one of two things for the Rifleman IIC's head dish hit box:

A) Make the dish large and have it similar to the Warhawk's head hit box. That means part of the dish is included in the side torsos while the center head hit box is more narrow. Think of a thin dish profile when looking at the mech from the front view.

B.) Make the radar dish similar to the reseen Rifleman IIC and keep it as a whole head hit box. Maybe include a part of the dish into the side torsos depending on how large it is.

I'm hoping personally a little for A) in this case because PGI has a great opportunity to redesign this mech to make it look like a bad *** war machine. I'd still preorder a redesigned reseen/nuseen, but if HG really has no say over the VMI mechs (which looks like it's confirmed with the Incubus but it's still pure speculation) then I would really rather have them to take the time to stick to the classic formula for the Rifleman IIC and Warhammer IIC over the reseen designs.



Something like this with the PGI artwork touch up and my wallet will be flying open.

I wouldn't get my hopes up for anything even peripherally connected to the Macross Unseen. I may be wrong but the wording of Russ's release was about continuing to use, aka, referring to extant Classic Unseen. Even though the RFL-IIC is a VMI design (and later a FanPro one), it's close enough to the contested property to possibly trigger language in whatever settlement they achieved. I honestly don't expect anything like the Warhammer or Rifleman IIC, Crusader, Wasp, Stinger, etc.

I hope I'm wrong, but I would not hold my breath waiting.

That said, I'd love to see any of the remaining Macross Unseen or offspring (aka IIC or simply Marauder II) show up, since that would give us insight into the details of the settlement without PGI having to say anything.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

I wouldn't get my hopes up for anything even peripherally connected to the Macross Unseen. I may be wrong but the wording of Russ's release was about continuing to use, aka, referring to extant Classic Unseen. Even though the RFL-IIC is a VMI design (and later a FanPro one), it's close enough to the contested property to possibly trigger language in whatever settlement they achieved. I honestly don't expect anything like the Warhammer or Rifleman IIC, Crusader, Wasp, Stinger, etc.

I hope I'm wrong, but I would not hold my breath waiting.

That said, I'd love to see any of the remaining Macross Unseen or offspring (aka IIC or simply Marauder II) show up, since that would give us insight into the details of the settlement without PGI having to say anything.

We shall see. What makes me hopeful is that the Vixen (Incubus) was in the list of unseens and it looks like PGI is going full force with that release. If what you said is true about the wording of whatever now is archived in their agreement, then I would think legally that anything that uses the surname Warhammer, Rifleman, etc would be safe since we already have the Marauder IIC in game.

Why would they risk opening a possible future lawsuit with the Vixen (Incubus) since it's listed as an unseen? Maybe the unused VMI artwork mecha are safe, since most of the mechs don't share any surnames with the IS unseens from the lawsuit. Maybe PGI can't use mech artwork that are too similar in design with some of the Macross designs (the Stone Rhino would be a prime candidate in being similar to the Destroid Monster, but I'm doubtful of this theory since they are releasing a nuseen Incubus).

Or maybe best case scenario (and the one I'm ultimately hoping for) is that ALL of the unseens are safe, as long as they are properly redesigned as nuseens with proper inspiration of the old classic mechs. The simple truth is that we don't know yet. I'd like to be at least positively hopeful about the outcome.

[Shadowomega1]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 July 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

We shall see. What makes me hopeful is that the Vixen (Incubus) was in the list of unseens and it looks like PGI is going full force with that release. If what you said is true about the wording of whatever now is archived in their agreement, then I would think legally that anything that uses the surname Warhammer, Rifleman, etc would be safe since we already have the Marauder IIC in game.

Why would they risk opening a possible future lawsuit with the Vixen (Incubus) since it's listed as an unseen? Maybe the unused VMI artwork mecha are safe, since most of the mechs don't share any surnames with the IS unseens from the lawsuit. Maybe PGI can't use mech artwork that are too similar in design with some of the Macross designs (the Stone Rhino would be a prime candidate in being similar to the Destroid Monster, but I'm doubtful of this theory since they are releasing a nuseen Incubus).

Or maybe best case scenario (and the one I'm ultimately hoping for) is that ALL of the unseens are safe, as long as they are properly redesigned as nuseens with proper inspiration of the old classic mechs. The simple truth is that we don't know yet. I'd like to be at least positively hopeful about the outcome.

HBS already said the Stone Rhino will be in their clan Expansion, so if it appears there it will like show up in MWO.

[Bishop Steiner]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 July 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

We shall see. What makes me hopeful is that the Vixen (Incubus) was in the list of unseens and it looks like PGI is going full force with that release. If what you said is true about the wording of whatever now is archived in their agreement, then I would think legally that anything that uses the surname Warhammer, Rifleman, etc would be safe since we already have the Marauder IIC in game.

Why would they risk opening a possible future lawsuit with the Vixen (Incubus) since it's listed as an unseen? Maybe the unused VMI artwork mecha are safe, since most of the mechs don't share any surnames with the IS unseens from the lawsuit. Maybe PGI can't use mech artwork that are too similar in design with some of the Macross designs (the Stone Rhino would be a prime candidate in being similar to the Destroid Monster, but I'm doubtful of this theory since they are releasing a nuseen Incubus).

Or maybe best case scenario (and the one I'm ultimately hoping for) is that ALL of the unseens are safe, as long as they are properly redesigned as nuseens with proper inspiration of the old classic mechs. The simple truth is that we don't know yet. I'd like to be at least positively hopeful about the outcome.

Because again, the Vixen is NOT a direct knockoff of the Macross Units. Whereas the Macross IICs aside from possibly the Pixie are very close. There is a HUGE difference between agreeing to also allow them to continue to use what has already been added, and adding yet MORE that are very obviously Macross inspired. The Vixen and Stone Rhino's visual connection to the Macross IP is about as tenuous as the OST series, which was cleared LONG ago.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 04 July 2018 - 04:15 PM.

[Humpday]

Hello? PGI? I got money to waste here... WTF is the hold up!?

Edited by Humpday, 04 July 2018 - 04:33 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

Because again, the Vixen is NOT a direct knockoff of the Macross Units. Whereas the Macross IICs aside from possibly the Pixie are very close. There is a HUGE difference between agreeing to also allow them to continue to use what has already been added, and adding yet MORE that are very obviously Macross inspired. The Vixen and Stone Rhino's visual connection to the Macross IP is about as tenuous as the OST series, which was cleared LONG ago.

Argh, it is. Did you actually read legal document? One of the biggest copyright violation part that Harmony Gold pointed out on Phoenix Hawk was that hand grabbing an laser gun. I was quite surprised and amazed by PGI's steel balls when Incubus came out with that same hand, then we got the news of lawsuit so perhaps PGI knew what was going on.

And yes, Incubus, IMO, is still near-carbon copy of VF-2SS Valkyrie. that reverse triangle belly and horns are dead giveaway. This is why PGI's Incubus lost that horns and belly parts have been significantly changed, thus becoming "classic" design.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Lighthouse, on 04 July 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

Argh, it is. Did you actually read legal document? One of the biggest copyright violation part that Harmony Gold pointed out on Phoenix Hawk was that hand grabbing an laser gun. I was quite surprised and amazed by PGI's steel balls when Incubus came out with that same hand, then we got the news of lawsuit so perhaps PGI knew what was going on.

And yes, Incubus, IMO, is still near-carbon copy of VF-2SS Valkyrie. that reverse triangle belly and horns are dead giveaway. This is why PGI's Incubus lost that horns and belly parts have been significantly changed, thus becoming "classic" design.

VF-2SS Valkyrie is Macross II and not remotely connected to any license ownership that HG has. And no, it's about as close to a carbon copy ans Chewbacca is a carbon Copy of King Kong.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

VF-2SS Valkyrie is Macross II and not remotely connected to any license ownership that HG has. And no, it's about as close to a carbon copy ans Chewbacca is a carbon Copy of King Kong.

And it was discovered from PGI's lawyers that HG has ZERO ownership of the 41 characters/designs of the macross franchise. They only own the english dubbing from what was discovered. Harmony Gold was threatened with rule 11 sanctions if it was discovered by the jury that they were indeed wasting everyone's time. Why would they allow CGL to be dismissed with prejudice from the PGI agreement if they clearly had a case against them?

It's clearly evident that they did not, and the realization of their relentless harassment finally dawned on them. You have to remember that PGI was the first company to challenge their legal IP trolling and was willing to take it to the court room all the way. It was probably better that HG agreed to the settlement than to be made fools in the court room, where they would be only obligated to pay for the legal costs and not ruin their already shady public reputation.

I'm not dismissing of what you are saying isn't true, but look beyond what Russ Bullock stated on twitter of the whole matter.

[Bishop Steiner]

Arnold The Governator, on 04 July 2018 - 05:30 PM, said:

And it was discovered from PGI's lawyers that HG has ZERO ownership of the 41 characters/designs of the macross franchise. They only own the english dubbing from what was discovered. Harmony Gold was threatened with rule 11 sanctions if it was discovered by the jury that they were indeed wasting everyone's time. Why would they allow CGL to be dismissed with prejudice from the PGI agreement if they clearly had a case against them?

It's clearly evident that they did not, and the realization of their relentless harassment finally dawned on them. You have to remember that PGI was the first company to challenge their legal IP trolling and was willing to take it to the court room all the way. It was probably better that HG agreed to the settlement than to be made fools in the court room, where they would be only obligated to pay for the legal costs and not ruin their already shady public reputation.

I'm not dismissing of what you are saying isn't true, but look beyond what Russ Bullock stated on twitter of the whole matter.

and yet instead of going for the throat in court...PGI settled.

I have read all the released court documents. I have read the official statements. What I haven't done, which is what these forums, twitter and reddit seem full of is read INTO those documents and statements.

Remember. HG has the usual tactic of outlasting. Even those documents you mention are not a 100% homerun since they actually were "revealed' in a totally separate case, and could still be dismissed in this one. HG loses the the license in a couple years, period. HBS, CGL and PGI all have product to release NOW. Settling now, and waiting a couple years until HG can't do a blasted thing makes sense, if one was to decide to read into anything.

But whatever. I have no desire to keep having a circular argument with you and Lighthouse over this stuff. I genuinely hope you are right. But to date, there has been nothing released to actually support those assumptions.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 04 July 2018 - 05:41 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 04:40 PM, said:

VF-2SS Valkyrie is Macross II and not remotely connected to any license ownership that HG has. And no, it's about as close to a carbon copy ans Chewbacca is a carbon Copy of King Kong.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

and yet instead of going for the throat in court...PGI settled.

I have read all the released court documents. I have read the official statements. What I haven't done, which is what these forums, twitter and reddit seem full of is read INTO those documents and statements.

Remember. HG has the usual tactic of outlasting. Even those documents you mention are not a 100% homerun since they actually were "revealed' in a totally separate case, and could still be dismissed in this one. HG loses the the license in a couple years, period. HBS, CGL and PGI all have product to release NOW. Settling now, and waiting a couple years until HG can't do a blasted thing makes sense, if one was to decide to read into anything.

But whatever. I have no desire to keep having a circular argument with you and Lighthouse over this stuff. I genuinely hope you are right. But to date, there has been nothing released to actually support those assumptions.

Harmony Gold does not care whether it actually has license ownership or not. It is very evident that you know little about how Harmony Gold has acted against Battletech.

Harmony Gold does not wish companies to use designs of Marcross. Mechwarrior 2 was just finished before the settlement happened, and after the Mechwarrior we had zero appearance of these Unseen/Classic mechs.

It is the first time, and also will be the last time, Harmony Gold failed to prevent Battletech-related companies from using their designs from Marcross, like ever. This never happened since the lawsuit ended in 1996. If you are not aware of the history of PGI and Harmony Gold, PGI had already contacted Harmony Gold but HG said they did not want PGI to use the designs.

They never licensed or made settlement to gain money from letting companies to use the designs. All they did was cease & desist letter.

If you still believe Harmony Gold had won the case, Mechs like Warhammer and Marauder would had disappeared from this game. But it didn't happen.

Lastly, a stipulation usually mentions about settlement if there was one, so it is not required, except when the settlement contains recurring fee/payment then it must be mentioned on the stipulation, but we don't see it. So it is not like Harmony Gold got a change of mind and made licensing to PGI/CGL/HBS either. It may have been one-time payment, but then it says both parties will pay legal fees for themselves, so it is not like HG got huge sum of the money if there was money payment.

There was no licensing agreement happened, and typical Harmony Gold's goal (make companies stop using designs) did not happen, and finally CGL who got defaulted judgement (basically free lunch) also got dismissed. All of incidents tell me one thing.

I really don't see Harmony Gold to have any legal leverage to stop PGI from releasing other Classic mechs.




You also do not aware of distinctions in art language, which baffles me since you are a very decent artist yourself. That trademark dual thin horns, a body that looks like reversed jet fighter frontal shape, and hand with gun. Maybe 'hand with a gun' is too general but rest of the mech's body screams Marcross.

http://www.sarna.net...e_Wolf_(27).jpg

Show this anyone and all they are going to say is "It is -insert their popular Marcross robot name here-!", not some other robots.

In contrast, if you look at the robot that has separate origion, such as Starscream of Transformers, have very distinct difference compared to Marcross ones, despite the fact that both robots transform from a jet fighter.

https://tfwiki.net/w...ubCon_flyme.jpg

Edited by The Lighthouse, 04 July 2018 - 08:14 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

Now I am tired. I really have not much attachment to these.... outdated, super ugly robots and dinosaurs. At least Marauder looks interesting, but Warhammer is truly one of the most generic mechs I've ever seen.

I played Mech Commander 1 back in 1990s, and got real interest in Battletech/Mechwarrior when I played Mech Commander 2 and Mechwarrior 4.

Basically I got into Battletech at 3060 era, not old 3025 era. I must confess that I don't have much interest pre-Clan Invasion era.



So, my question is, where is the mech, that shook me at the mission 2 of Mech Commander 1, with that dreaded Gauss Rifle?



WHERE IS HOLLANDER ALREADY?




Well, the fact is Hollander on Mech Commander 1 is Hollander II, a 45ton version, but you get the idea.

[Abaddun]

I am not afraid to admit that I'm being spooked by this wait. I'm not a doomsayer but we should have had an announcement by now.

[Marauder3D]

I'm starting to think between the observance of Canada day on July 2 and American employees calling in sick on July 4 that the PGI team decided to wait until next week to announce the next mech release.

(Prove me wrong, PGI, I dare you!)

[SneekiBreeki]

To the guys comparing the Incubus to the original valkyries from macross: i present to you the AV-X0 from Patlabor



And the VF-3000 Star Crusader


While the similarities between the Incubus and this Valkyrie above are undeniable it is also true that some design elements on the Incubus are derived from the likes of the Type Zero or other Patlabor designs.

Since HG doesn't own anything over those 2 designs (the Star Crusader compared to the old VF-1 is a more recent design that has only been featured in some PSX macross games to date IIRC and Patlabor is a property of Bandai Visual/I.G. Production/whatever) i can see why alex went for a redesign that was much closer to the old VMI unseen.

On the matter of the Whammy IIC and Rifleman IIC as much as they're both based off the 2 old macross destroids they also bear some distinct differences design-wise. Raising a lawsuit over those 2 unseen would be more or less equal to claiming copyright over any generic humanoid mecha featuring elbowless twin barreled arms and any generic symmetrical humanoid mecha with blocky shoulders and gun pods for arms.

Not to say that mechas that were much similar to the old Marauder/Warhammer/Rifleman has also been featured in other franchises as such as the Front Mission and Armored Core series.

Edited by SneekiBreeki, 05 July 2018 - 02:32 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Marauder3D, on 05 July 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

I'm starting to think between the observance of Canada day on July 2 and American employees calling in sick on July 4 that the PGI team decided to wait until next week to announce the next mech release.

(Prove me wrong, PGI, I dare you!)

Russ said on Twitter that he heard Friday was the day.

[Marauder3D]

Good to know, now I can stop obsessively checking the site today!

[Grus]

I'm just excited to try out a 100 pnt alpha build on my Hellfire at the end of the month... gonna be... SMOKIN'!!!! Lol

Edited by Grus, 05 July 2018 - 12:05 PM.

[Shadowomega1]

Likely to be a nuseen mech than if it comes out friday.

[Gas Guzzler]

Grus, on 05 July 2018 - 12:05 PM, said:

I'm just excited to try out a 100 pnt alpha build on my Hellfire at the end of the month... gonna be... SMOKIN'!!!! Lol

What's the build?

[The Lighthouse]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 July 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

Russ said on Twitter that he heard Friday was the day.

Shadowomega1, on 05 July 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

Likely to be a nuseen mech than if it comes out friday.

God ****ing damn it. Until now I had kept saying there would be no chance Classic mechs would come out this month, but unless PGI took a long break, it seems they are changing a lot of things behind.


Very bad news for my Hollander. Extremely bad news.


I have a slight feeling that they are trying to put 4-mech packs to milk out newly came players from HBS game. That would be quite worrisome regarding the quality of mechs. Last time we had 4-mech pack the quality was.... yeah.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 05 July 2018 - 12:45 PM.