39 replies to this topic

[Nameless King]

Kanil, on 09 July 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

I can use my 'mech on all the maps, but the problem is there's no reason to bring any other 'mech. Like, if Solaris comes up, I could use the Orion IIC which would probably perform better... but I'd never drop with the Orion IIC because on most maps it's just worse. So my Orion IIC just sits in the hangar because while it's good, it's not good enough to justify using in bad situations.

It would be nice to be able to use niche 'mechs without shooting yourself in the foot most of the time.

I must be really special then, because I use what ever mech I want on what ever map pops up, yes I have some bad matches but most of the time I do equally well on any map.

P.S. I aint special I just play for fun.

Edited by Nameless King, 09 July 2018 - 05:26 PM.

[TechChris]

Sounds good to me.

I see several prev posts saying basically saying "but that would kill variety", "everyone would game the system", etc, etc.

Maybe it's just me, but I kinda see it the opposite way???

To the "it would kill variety".
The way I see it, it wouldn't kill variety in totality persay. Sure, it probably would on an individual map by map basis, but over-all, I think its one the few ways we will ever get any noticeable variety, as then more people would finally be comfortable taking other builds. They'd finally be able to see before hand what environment they were gonna have to work with and not have to be afraid they would be totally useless if they went outside the box.
Its also been mentioned "learn to use your mechs on all maps"...... Well, there's one the many reasons laser vomit is predominant, because it's the easiest, lowest skill floor, that's works the best in the most situations. It works up close, it works at mid range, it can be sprayed freely without fear of wasting ammo at long range, on and on. I mean why risk anything when there's an "easy" answer to being able to use your mech in all maps??? Just using that as an example for why having to prep for every possibility leads to a bit of staleness, not attacking the vomit. Idk.... Maybe I'm just dreaming, or missing something important, but that's my piece.

To the "gaming the system"
Well yeah, no matter what is added or taken from a game, people will always try to find a way to game the system. To keep it short, for every person who would get to swap to lurms for Polar, there can be someone who swaps to a variation of there build with AMS and 2 tons ammo cause now they know for sure it'll be useful tonnage instead of a waste like bringing it to Solaris or such. Which Idk, sounds like getting to use a bit more variety again. Just some random thoughts.

Edited by TechChris, 09 July 2018 - 05:36 PM.

[Nameless King]

TechChris, on 09 July 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

Sounds good to me.

I see several prev posts saying basically saying "but that would kill variety", "everyone would game the system", etc, etc.

Maybe it's just me, but I kinda see it the opposite way???

To the "it would kill variety".
The way I see it, it wouldn't kill variety in totality persay. Sure, it probably would on an individual map by map basis, but over-all, I think its one the few ways we will ever get any noticeable variety, as then more people would finally be comfortable taking other builds. They'd finally be able to see before hand what environment they were gonna have to work with and not have to be afraid they would be totally useless if they went outside the box.
Its also been mentioned "learn to use your mechs on all maps"...... Well, there's one the many reasons laser vomit is predominant, because it's the easiest, lowest skill floor, that's works the best in the most situations. It works up close, it works at mid range, it can be sprayed freely without fear of wasting ammo at long range, on and on. I mean why risk anything when there's an "easy" answer to being able to use your in all maps??? Idk.... Maybe I'm just dreaming, or missing something important, but that's my piece.

To the "gaming the system"
Well yeah, no matter what is added or taken from a game, people will always try to find a way to game the system. To keep it short, for every person who would get to swap to lurms for Polar, there can be someone who swaps to a variation of there build with AMS and 2 tons ammo cause now they know for sure it'll be useful tonnage instead of a waste like bringing it to Solaris or such. Which Idk, sounds like getting to use a bit more variety again. Just some random thoughts.

Except I dont use laser vomit. I have 2-4 mechs that might be concidered laser vomit out of over 800. I still play what I want when I want on any map.

Again Random Maps and Modes is best for all, most of all new players.

[Prototelis]

I'd be down with random maps/modes if they deleted Polar and Alpine.

[NimoStar]

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Random nature of QP map/mech is one its main charms. How else you end up in polar highlands against lrm masters with a brawly team, and show them the power of aggression. Sure most of the times you just get annihilated by homing missiles, but having the "wrong" loadout sometimes creates the best matches because you gotta think how to make it work.

My main problem would be how this works from a "roleplayign" perspective.

WHy would your mech be shipped to a battlefield where it will be anhilated?
And if you have another 14 mechs to choose from, why bring the worse of them?

***

And I think this will give more variety as a team. instead of having a random assortment of weapons, you would have for example two teams BUILT for brawling, brawling it out.

Edited by NimoStar, 09 July 2018 - 10:56 PM.

[A Man In A Can]

Picking a mech for the map also gives incentive for color/camo variety, and frankly is a missed business/synergy/flavor opportunity outside FP.

But, 'cest la vie.

[Haipyng]

Really aside from it making absolutely no sense in not knowing where you are going before selecting your mech (as was the case in previous iterations of the game), the idea of pure random chance for game and map selection is really stretching it. Taking more choice away from players is not going to make it more popular.

For example, I don't think I have seen anyone play Escort the way it was intended since just after it launched. Either they TK the VIP or more often they run off and find a place to ball up and play skirmish until the VIP leaves, one side is dead, or the enemy team kills an undefended VIP. Or they just suicide or YOLO just to get out of it. That will just get worse if you force people into something they absolutely hate.

Players want choice.

[Prototelis]

There would be no brawling in this game if you could pick loadouts before matches.

Aside from a couple of maps, every map in this game consists of large open areas with sparse cover.

[Kubernetes]

Prototelis, on 10 July 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

There would be no brawling in this game if you could pick loadouts before matches.

Aside from a couple of maps, every map in this game consists of large open areas with sparse cover.

This is so wrong I don’t even. Are you saying there are no small maps with abundant cover? People will bring brawl on mining, hpg, and Solaris if given a choice.

Ever wonder why the meta is what it is? Granted laser vomit is tops because of nerfs to other weapons, but look at the other “meta” systems it displaced: gauss/peeps, gauss vom, 5/10 class UACs. Notice something? These are all viable across most expected engagement ranges. Laser vomit is *not* the most optimal build for every map/mode, but it rules because it’s versatile and “good enough” for every map/mode. A dedicated brawler will demolish laser vom on the right map, but it can’t be meta when it’s garbage two out of every three matches. I rarely drive my Atlas in QP because it’s a gamble; why would I pick it when there’s a good chance I land on Polar or Grim? Give me map choice and my brawlers will come out to play.

Look at Faction play. Build diversity is abundant because mech choice lets us bring the best builds for particular maps/modes. I have 6ERLL boats, brawlers, LRM boats, NARC spotters, etc., none of which I will ever use in QP due to the map lottery. Give us mech choice and you will see real brawls, not the crap now (e.g. bunch of laser vom and LRMers trying to knife-fight).

[Nameless King]

Kubernetes, on 10 July 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

This is so wrong I don’t even. Are you saying there are no small maps with abundant cover? People will bring brawl on mining, hpg, and Solaris if given a choice.

Ever wonder why the meta is what it is? Granted laser vomit is tops because of nerfs to other weapons, but look at the other “meta” systems it displaced: gauss/peeps, gauss vom, 5/10 class UACs. Notice something? These are all viable across most expected engagement ranges. Laser vomit is *not* the most optimal build for every map/mode, but it rules because it’s versatile and “good enough” for every map/mode. A dedicated brawler will demolish laser vom on the right map, but it can’t be meta when it’s garbage two out of every three matches. I rarely drive my Atlas in QP because it’s a gamble; why would I pick it when there’s a good chance I land on Polar or Grim? Give me map choice and my brawlers will come out to play.

Look at Faction play. Build diversity is abundant because mech choice lets us bring the best builds for particular maps/modes. I have 6ERLL boats, brawlers, LRM boats, NARC spotters, etc., none of which I will ever use in QP due to the map lottery. Give us mech choice and you will see real brawls, not the crap now (e.g. bunch of laser vom and LRMers trying to knife-fight).

You said it the best build for a map, and if you dont or cant play that way then you lose. Guess all new players will just get screwed in your world.

Or you can go to FW for the Map then Mech select, it is already there. Qp needs to go random maps and modes.

[Kubernetes]

Nameless King, on 10 July 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

You said it the best build for a map, and if you dont or cant play that way then you lose. Guess all new players will just get screwed in your world.

Or you can go to FW for the Map then Mech select, it is already there. Qp needs to go random maps and modes.

As opposed to now when novices go out in their non-meta mechs and get smashed? Those without lots of mechs are going to find it rough regardless. If you're cool with QP being a monotonous laser vom fest regardless of whether you're on Polar or Mining, whatever. I personally find it awful. Note that no grand meta developed in FW; every style is viable in the right circumstances. In QP there are a few always-viable styles, and the rest are gambles.

[Nameless King]

Kubernetes, on 10 July 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

As opposed to now when novices go out in their non-meta mechs and get smashed? Those without lots of mechs are going to find it rough regardless. If you're cool with QP being a monotonous laser vom fest regardless of whether you're on Polar or Mining, whatever. I personally find it awful. Note that no grand meta developed in FW; every style is viable in the right circumstances. In QP there are a few always-viable styles, and the rest are gambles.

Maybe but with random maps and modes they would have a better shot then if they have to have a certain mech and build for a map.

I have a ton of mechs I will be fine but why make it easier? If you all want QP to be as dead as FW, this is how it starts.

I also dont see laser vomit all that overwhelming, I see pretty much all types of builds.

Meta is just easy mode crap.

[Kubernetes]

Nameless King, on 10 July 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

Maybe but with random maps and modes they would have a better shot then if they have to have a certain mech and build for a map.

They can always take the "good enough" builds until they make enough cbills. In the meantime it would really open up the game for everyone else in terms of style. Probably more than 2/3 of my mechs are built out as specialist builds that never, never ever ever get taken out for QP because of the map lottery. I'd love to brawl on hpg or go full ERLL on Polar in QP; instead I stick to safe choices (because nothing is more demoralizing than doing two-digit damage).

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If you all want QP to be as dead as FW, this is how it starts.

Wrong. Mech choice and drop decks were not the cause of FW's demise. I can't believe you're actually suggesting that one of FW's best features is the reason for its failure. FFS.

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Meta is just easy mode crap.

Everyone's an expert in his own mind.

[Prototelis]

Kubernetes, on 10 July 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

This is so wrong I don’t even. Are you saying there are no small maps with abundant cover? People will bring brawl on mining, hpg, and Solaris if given a choice.

Every map you listed consists of large open areas with a few pieces between them.

You can stand at either extreme of or the middle of Mining and peg people with ERLL, for example. Whether you choose to believe this or not, the objectives in QP are pointless and can be gamed simply by killing everyone on the enemy team. Infact that is what happens most of the time.

Even Solaris has really good spots you can fire from with near impunity.

The meta is what it is because folks enjoy smashing peeps from the relative safety of a piece of cover that gives you a long line of sight.

Locking you into a mech before the map is chosen forces variety.

Faction play as an example is foley, the good units and players game the **** out of knowing what map they're playing on and knowing those maps really well.

Edited by Prototelis, 10 July 2018 - 01:50 PM.

[Nameless King]

Kubernetes, on 10 July 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

They can always take the "good enough" builds until they make enough cbills. In the meantime it would really open up the game for everyone else in terms of style. Probably more than 2/3 of my mechs are built out as specialist builds that never, never ever ever get taken out for QP because of the map lottery. I'd love to brawl on hpg or go full ERLL on Polar in QP; instead I stick to safe choices (because nothing is more demoralizing than doing two-digit damage).



Wrong. Mech choice and drop decks were not the cause of FW's demise. I can't believe you're actually suggesting that one of FW's best features is the reason for its failure. FFS.




Everyone's an expert in his own mind.

I avoid meta at all cost and I am entitled to my opinion just as you are.

Mech choice is not, but knowing the map first is the main reason FW is boring and the reason it can be one sided.

Again I play for FUN, winning is a bonus.

[Kubernetes]

Prototelis, on 10 July 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

Every map you listed consists of large open areas with a few pieces between them.

You can stand at either extreme of or the middle of Mining and peg people with ERLL, for example.

Right, which is why in FW the ERLL boats rule every map.

No wait, that's not right at all, and you have no idea what you're talking about. But hey, be my guest, drop into FW with ERLL boats regardless of the map and tell me how you do.

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Even Solaris has really good spots you can fire from with near impunity.

Impunity? You think a good pilot can't get to you on Solaris? Wtf

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The meta is what it is because folks enjoy smashing peeps from the relative safety of a piece of cover that gives you a long line of sight.

The meta is what it is because it's the best of the "good enough everywhere" builds. Based on your ridiculous reasoning ERLL and ERPPC boats should be the meta.

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Locking you into a mech before the map is chosen forces variety.

No it does not. It crushes variety by incentiving the "good enough everywhere" builds. If you're seeing a lot variety, that variety is provided by potatoes who don't know any better. If you think brawlers on Alpine or LRMs on Solaris is a good kind of variety, we must be playing completely different games.

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Faction play as an example is foley, the good units and players game the **** out of knowing what map they're playing on and knowing those maps really well.

Wow, so you mean that we're trying to play the game optimally and at a high level? Crazy! You're so right, we should just bumble about like autistic clowns and repeat the potato mantra, "I'm just trying to have fun!"

[Prototelis]

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Wow, so you mean that we're trying to play the game optimally and at a high level? Crazy! You're so right, we should just bumble about like autistic clowns and repeat the potato mantra, "I'm just trying to have fun!"

I do play to have fun, fun to me is winning. A specialty mech can be strong in QP on any map under the right circumstances, and thats why you continue to see people run what they like. No one remotely serious about this game runs bracket builds, you know that. I don't know why you would even mention that.

Faction plays entirely different to QP. I do agree that maps before mechs creates variety for FP, but I don't agree that bringing that feature to QP is going to create anything but a bunch more sameness.

I don't understand how you can't see that everyone running the same type of specialty builds on the same maps is not variety. You only get one life in QP and people would only run what is most viable on that map. It doesn't matter how you or I feel about brawlers on Alpine. I never offered an opinion on that, thanks for giving me one. Besides their very presence is variety that wouldn't otherwise wouldn't exist if you chose your loadout after the map vote in QP.

I only mentioned ERLL as one example, and I think you're smart enough to have been able to pick up on that and not resort to cherry picking. Most of the maps in this game are favorable to mid to long range builds

Faction plays entirely different to QP. I do agree that mechs before creates variety for FP, but I don't agree that bringing that feature to QP is going to create anything but a bunch more sameness.

I'm not sure if you can load a saved loadout on a mech from the faction pregame lobby, but that should absolutely be a feature.

Edited by Prototelis, 10 July 2018 - 05:15 PM.

[Kubernetes]

Prototelis, on 10 July 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

I do play to have fun, fun to me is winning. A specialty mech can be strong in QP on any map under the right circumstances, and thats why you continue to see people run what they like.

No, they do it for laughs or to take a gamble, but if they get their fun from winning, they’re going to choose the “good enough” meta.

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No one remotely serious about this game runs bracket builds, you know that. I don't know why you would even mention that.

. That’s because I didn’t say anything about bracket builds. I’m talking about specialized brawl or ranged builds.

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Faction plays entirely different to QP. I do agree that maps before mechs creates variety for FP, but I don't agree that bringing that feature to QP is going to create anything but a bunch more sameness.

Dunno how to even respond to this. The quality of gameplay in QP is wretched partly because 25-50% of the players in any given match are rendered ineffective or sub-optimal the moment the map is decided. And that’s not even taking into account the potato-quality skill level that abounds. This is a good game to you? I’m trying to think of another game that permits extensive customization and then screws you for that choice with a near-random map choice.

If the “sameness” of FW scares you, I dunno what to say. The number and variety of builds I use for FW far outstrip what I use for QP. That’s good variety. If I play a day of FW matches, there's a good chance I will have used the majority of weapons available to my faction except for LRMs. I will have played everything from assaults to lights, and I will have fought at every range from 1500m to point blank. THAT is the good kind of variety.

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I don't understand how you can't see that everyone running the same type of specialty builds on the same maps is not variety.

Because there’s more than one map. Seeing an ERLL SNV on HPG or an SRM brawler on Polar is certainly variety, but it’s not the good kind. Apparently you think any variety is good, even if it results from being screwed by map randomness.

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You only get one life in QP and people would only run what is most viable on that map.

People playing to win. Amazing, huh?

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It doesn't matter how you or I feel about brawlers on Alpine. I never offered an opinion on that, thanks for giving me one. Besides their very presence is variety that wouldn't otherwise wouldn't exist if you chose your loadout after the map vote in QP.

. Because variety for its own sake is dumb, especially when that variety involves people getting hosed in suboptimal mechs. Do you want to see more stock builds and bracket builds? Because that’s variety too. Me, I want to see matches where players are all driving viable mechs and using skill to win, not "Haha, you brought the wrong mech--you lose."

[Dragonporn]

Completely against the idea to be able to choose mech before map, it would defeat the whole purpose of QP with its non-tryhard meta approach and turn it into another GP/FP clone, only without teamwork.

We already have **** in form of map voting, where rule "101 how to lurm like yolo" applies, in case somebody is unaware: rack up multiplier score, play few matches, if Polar is out of rotation for 2-3 of them good chance it drops next, dump you multiplier while you're in your biggest and ugliest lurmboat...profit.

With some more attention, you can do the same with brawler to get HPG or Solaris drops. Exploitable systems like these suck. When you choose a mech, you should not be able to manipulate conditions in your favor, so whenever you bring something very specialized, like lurmboat with no backups, get random map, and no ability to force one you want. That's only fair, and fun.

[Triveros]

MechaBattler, on 09 July 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

I would prefer 100% random. Let's go back to random maps while we're at it.

We should go 100% random map, 100% random game mode, and 100% random mech. Yeah. Also 100% random player. Sometimes you'll pilot someone else's mech. Then 100% random game period, sometimes we'll play DOTA instead after queue.