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Bring in Alternate ammo types


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#1 EDMW CSN

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:16 PM

Ever face down a PPC boat and realized your 3 LB-10x autocannon is basically flaking him with paper cuts with cluster shots at his range while he laughs at you and put 3 PPC bolts into your ammo bin at your right torso ?

Or ever faced a guy who seems to have a alpha boat that never bloody overheats and he is getting on your nerves ? Do you wish you packed some Infernos or those fancy Magnetic Pulse Warhead ammo for your SRM6 just to rattle the guy ?

Or too many Clan laser boats happily having a field day as your team needs to make a charge through an open field ? Now if you bought some fancy laser inhibiting warheads, it could have given your team a 20 second advantage to charge through since all laser damage is reduced. Or even longer if you packed a full ton of em !

=======================================

These are some of the alternate ammunition Table top has much to offer to "mix things up". While I understand back then, it might be difficult to implement alternate ammo and ammo switch button but it is 2012 soon dudes ! Even Fallout New Vegas can do alternate ammunition and switch them with a button.

The only downside is if you bring too much alternate ammunition, you are eating up tonnage for other weapons and spending too long to switch to the right ammo type :)

So I say bring them in ! In fact it encourages more people to make use of ballistics and missiles and that is a plus in my book.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 23 December 2011 - 10:19 PM.


#2 VYCanis

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:43 PM

yes please!

i love switching ammo types. I got into the habit of it in multiplayer with the battlefield vietnam mod Point of Existence where high explosive and armor piercing tank rounds had varying levels of effectiveness to different targets. you were always wondering if what you had would let you be ready or vulnerable to whatever rounded a corner or crested a hill.

but yeah ammo types, bring as many as feasible. thunders, incendiary, fascam, smokes, precision, inferno, whatever, gimme gimme gimme

#3 Volume

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:45 PM

View Post[EDMW]CSN, on 23 December 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:

The only downside is if you bring too much alternate ammunition, you are eating up tonnage for other weapons and spending too long to switch to the right ammo type :)


It's 3050 and I'm not sure all chassi have CASE, so you're also risking ammo explosion and internal critical/actuator damage if such ammo explosion occurs.

That said I would love to see this implemented and give people more of a choice, and make something like an SRM 6 more versatile.

Edited by Volume, 23 December 2011 - 10:45 PM.


#4 Dlardrageth

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:46 PM

I'd also like nuclear warheads for the AC/20 at least, hey we got nuclear artillery shells in real life, so why can't we just nuke the whole battlefield with our AC20s? :)

kthxbb

#5 Xhaleon

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:18 PM

Given the fact that they're already happy to give us a whole planet dedicated to melee, I'd say that they're very inclined to give us multiple ammunition types.

I'd like the selection system for switching ammunition to be delayed, please. Whether ammo selection uses one button or two, it should not start the switching process until the player has correctly selected what he wants for a second or so.

That's totally irrelevant if switching costs no time, of course, but in that case the delayed selection would represent the switching of ammo belts in the feeder mechanism.

#6 ManDaisy

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:24 PM

without a switch time I could just constantly cycle my ammo types while shooting... heavily abusive so a switch time is a must.

#7 Dlardrageth

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:24 PM

Might need to be more complicated than this actually, Xhaleon. It should make a difference if you only swap out the ammo cartridge (box) for the next AC burst, or if you have to reload the whole LRM20 launcher. In fact, we had part of that discussion already, in how far bigger missile launchers should have longer reload times etc.

#8 VYCanis

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:34 PM

View PostDlardrageth, on 23 December 2011 - 10:46 PM, said:

I'd also like nuclear warheads for the AC/20 at least, hey we got nuclear artillery shells in real life, so why can't we just nuke the whole battlefield with our AC20s? :)

kthxbb


no no thats what urbies with nuclear arrow IVs are for

Edited by VYCanis, 23 December 2011 - 11:36 PM.


#9 Xhaleon

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:36 PM

View PostDlardrageth, on 23 December 2011 - 11:24 PM, said:

Might need to be more complicated than this actually, Xhaleon. It should make a difference if you only swap out the ammo cartridge (box) for the next AC burst, or if you have to reload the whole LRM20 launcher. In fact, we had part of that discussion already, in how far bigger missile launchers should have longer reload times etc.

If it is the switching of ammo in a weapon like an LRM, the ammunition switch can merely come out on the next reload instead. Fire off the normal missiles you have now, and the next reload will be semi-guided.

Alternatively, just consider BT launchers to be advanced enough to back up and change ammo on the fly, but it will take time for the launcher to replace every missile with something else. Makes them earn back their ridiculous tonnage at least.

#10 VYCanis

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:52 PM

yeah, just suck the missile back in and replace em. let it take a little longer if need be, saves players the headache of "but i switched ammo why is it not firing the right type doublyouteeeff!!??"

and it it would be the LEAST magical thing BT lrm launchers would be capable of. Considering that mechs with launchers a significant fraction of the size of their bodies can compress 6 or more reloads for that weapon into 1 ton of ammo. or yank in seemingly meter long (if not longer) missiles from a torso bin, ferry them through a shoulder AND elbow joint, either of which is liable to be too thin to allow this and function believably, to feed a missile launcher somewhere in the forearm.

Edited by VYCanis, 23 December 2011 - 11:52 PM.


#11 EDMW CSN

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:06 AM

Ammo switch will take time naturally. At the very least 5 seconds. As for nuclear ammo ACs, no worries all ammo is taken directly from table top, so no magick ammo there. ;)

Also there are no nuke Arrow IVs but there is an Inferno Arrow IV that will set your target, his friends and probably your own spotters included or yourself if too close in a tasty ammo exploding heat wave within a fairly small blast radius of course :)

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 24 December 2011 - 12:06 AM.


#12 CaveMan

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:52 AM

I don't necessarily want to see wild and crazy stuff like mag pulse or acid warheads, but alternate ammo types should definitely be in.

I want to see the alternate autocannon ammo types be available WAY before 3067 too. That stuff should have been there from the get-go.

#13 VYCanis

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 01:34 AM

no mag pulse?!

NO MAG PULSE!?

how do you expect me to make those novacats and hellstar pilots wish they had brought MORE heatsinks?!

i just can't get out of bed without mag pulses to look forward to

Edited by VYCanis, 24 December 2011 - 01:35 AM.


#14 Strum Wealh

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 12:59 PM

View Post[EDMW]CSN, on 23 December 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:

Ever face down a PPC boat and realized your 3 LB-10x autocannon is basically flaking him with paper cuts with cluster shots at his range while he laughs at you and put 3 PPC bolts into your ammo bin at your right torso ?

Or ever faced a guy who seems to have a alpha boat that never bloody overheats and he is getting on your nerves ? Do you wish you packed some Infernos or those fancy Magnetic Pulse Warhead ammo for your SRM6 just to rattle the guy ?

Or too many Clan laser boats happily having a field day as your team needs to make a charge through an open field ? Now if you bought some fancy laser inhibiting warheads, it could have given your team a 20 second advantage to charge through since all laser damage is reduced. Or even longer if you packed a full ton of em !

=======================================

These are some of the alternate ammunition Table top has much to offer to "mix things up". While I understand back then, it might be difficult to implement alternate ammo and ammo switch button but it is 2012 soon dudes ! Even Fallout New Vegas can do alternate ammunition and switch them with a button.

The only downside is if you bring too much alternate ammunition, you are eating up tonnage for other weapons and spending too long to switch to the right ammo type :)

So I say bring them in ! In fact it encourages more people to make use of ballistics and missiles and that is a plus in my book.


BALLISTICS:

Prior to 3049, the following ballistic weapons were canonically in use by the IS:
Standard AC-2
Standard AC-5
Standard AC-10
Standard AC-20
LB-X AC-10 (reintroduced by the FedSuns/FedCom in 3035)
Ultra AC-5 (reintroduced by the FedSuns/FedCom in 3035)
Standard Machine Gun
Standard Gauss Rifle
Long Tom Cannon
Sniper Artillery Cannon
Thumper Cannon
Fluid Gun
Heavy Rifle
Medium Rifle
Light Rifle

(Canonically, the other LBX and Ultra models are reverse-engineered from Clan examples and appear in the mid-to-late 3050s.)

The standard ACs (and their lightweight cousins, canonically due in the late 3050s) normally fire high-explosive armor-piercing (HEAP) shells, while also having access to a variety of special munitions (though, most of those don't canonically appear until the mid-to-late 3050s).
  • Armor-piercing (AP) munitions (as distinct from the "standard" (HEAP) munitions) were prototyped by the FedSuns in 3053, and went into production in 3059.
  • Caseless munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3055.
  • Flak munitions were produced in 2310 for anti-air duty and have been available since, but were only occasionally popular (due to the superior anti-'Mech capabilities of the similar cluster rounds used by the LB-X series... when they were in production and available).
  • Flechette munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3055.
  • Precision munitions were put into production by the FedSuns in 3062.
  • Tracer munitions were produced in 2300 and have been available since.
What would be canonically available at the game's start point are: Standard (HEAP), Flak, and Tracer rounds.

It should be noted at the links above that while each of the special munitions offers a unique advantage or capability (increased damage or storage or effectiveness against certain types of targets), each also comes with a disadvantage (increased likelihood of jamming, reduction in ammo capacity or precision) as well.

Canonically, neither LB-X nor Ultra autocannons can use special munitions (nor can the Rotary or Hyper-Velocity ACs).
The LB-X ACs can fire both standard (HEAP) and cluster rounds at slightly longer ranges than standard ACs, at the cost of having to carry both and the time needed to switch the ammo feeds from one to the other.
The Ultra ACs fire standard (HEAP) rounds, and can be fired at double the standard ACs' rate-of-fire (two rounds per salvo) at the cost of increased ammo consumption and heat build-up, reduced accuracy, and increased risk of jamming the weapon, or fire at the standard ROF (and act as essentially a slightly longer-ranged version of a standard AC).

Gauss Rifles have no special munitions available; they may fire only standard Gauss Rifle munitions (solid nickel-ferrous slugs).
Machine Guns have no special munitions available; they may fire only standard Machine Gun munitions (conventional bullets).
Long Tom Cannons, Sniper Artillery Cannons, and Thumper Cannons have no special munitions available; they may fire only standard artillery munitions (HEAP shells?).
Fluid Guns can use a variety of liquids, including: water, oil, incendiary/Inferno fluids, cooling fluids, and corrosive fluids.
Heavy Rifles, Medium Rifles, and Light Rifles have no special munitions available; they may fire only standard rifle munitions (HEAP shells?).

The FedSuns/FedCom also had an experimental weapon, the "Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle" - essentially, an "LB-X-15" Gauss Rifle that fired cluster ammo from a single barrel (as opposed to having multiple small barrels in a cluster, like the Clans' HAGs or the real-life MetalStorm system) but for whatever reason couldn't fire standard Gauss ammo.
The FedSuns/FedCom SB Gauss experiment was cancelled in 3051 (indicating that working models existed before that point), but the weapon was eventually resurrected and used by the FWL against the WoB in the mid-3070s and put into production by the Combine in 3078, so there might (must?) have been some prototypes floating about the IS black markets at some point during or shortly after the FedSuns/FedCom experiment... right? ;)



MISSILES:

Prior to 3049, the following missile systems and munitions were canonically in use by the IS:
Standard LRM-5
Standard LRM-10
Standard LRM-15
Standard LRM-20
Standard SRM-2
Standard SRM-4
Standard SRM-6
Streak SRM-2 (reintroduced by the FWL in 3035)
Arrow IV Artillery (reintroduced by the Capellan Confederation in 3044)
'Mech Mortar-1
'Mech Mortar-2
'Mech Mortar-4
'Mech Mortar-8
Narc Missile Beacon (reintroduced bt the FWL in 3035)
Torpedo Launchers (modified LRM/SRM launchers)
One-Shot Launchers (modified LRM/SRM launchers)

The Artemis IV Fire Control System was reintroduced to the IS by the FWL in 3035.
TAG was reintroduced to the IS by the FedSuns in 3033.

Arrow IV Launcher ammo: homing artillery missiles, cluster missiles, illumination missiles, and inferno missiles,
LRM/SRM launcher ammo: standard (guided/homing), dead/dumb-fire missiles, follow-the-leader missiles, fragmentation missiles, heat-seeking missiles, inferno missiles, listen-kill missiles, Swarm LRM, and tear gas missiles
'Mech mortar ammo: Anti-Personnel, Armor-Piercing, Flare, Smoke, and Semi-Guided
Narc launcher ammo: standard (beacon) and possibly shoot-and-sit pods (year?)
No Streak or Narc versions of torpedoes are known to exist. No known special munition types are known to exist for torpedo launchers either.

Canonically:
The other IS Streak SRM launcher models are reverse-engineered from Clan examples and appear in 3058.
Streak LRMs were developed by the Clans in 3057.
The Medium-Range Missile (MRM) launchers (which cannot use alternate munitions) were developed by the Combine in 3058.
The Clans' Advanced Tactical Missile (ATM) launchers were developed in 3060.
The IS's Extended (extended-range) LRM launchers were developed by the FedCom in 3054.
The IS's Enhanced (halved minimum range) LRM launchers were developed by the FedCom in the mid-to-late 3050s.
The Improved Narc Missile Beacon launchers (and their associated pods) were developed by ComStar in 3062.
The Multi-Missile Launchers were developed by the Battle Magic mercenary company in 3067.
The ('Mech-scale/optimized) Rocket Launchers were developed in the Periphery in 3064.
Thunderbolt missile launchers were developed by the FedCom in the mid-3050s through the early-3070s.

It should be noted that, canonically, standard SRMs are guided/homing munitions while the Streak system was a mechanism built into the launcher (and compatible munitions) that prevents the weapon from being fired unless the fire control system could determine that all of the missiles were locked and (nearly) guaranteed to hit (which makes the Streak system, effectively, an ammo-conservation system).

Edited by Strum Wealh, 24 December 2011 - 10:09 PM.


#15 EDMW CSN

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 06:32 PM

Don't forget Magnetic Pulse Warheads !

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 24 December 2011 - 06:35 PM.






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