32 replies to this topic

[PobbestGob]

Linking Paul's balance planning post here we can see the intention with the PTS is to collect all weapons and mechs around a more equal point of effectiveness. However, quite the opposite is happening.



with the ghost heat change of erLL and large pulse lasers, heavy and assault mechs can switch a few medlas or armor/engine for an extra large laser and not only have their alphas unaffected, but also have more sustainable damage at a greater range than before. The gauss nerf is also easily circumvented by charging while firing lasers and then releasing. End result is the deathstrike, hellbringer, mad-iic etc get a buff while medium and light mechs unable to take 3 larges are significantly nerfed. Not sure why this PTS is being considered at all tbh.

Here's an example, old deathstrike on the top and new on the bottom. We sacrifice 6 kph and a smidge of sustained dps to nearly double our effective range (which, of course, gets us that sustained dps back at range cuz the medlas damage will drop beyond 400m). You can also try 3lpl 4-6 medlas mad-iic, the old 6erLL supernova (even 8 erLL is now workable), 3erLL/5ermed hellbringer, etc. These heavier mechs that were meant to be nerfed are simply better now, and lighter mechs that weren't an issue have to deal with significant nerfs to the medlas, mpls, and ersmalls.

Edited by Kill2Blit, 13 July 2018 - 10:26 PM.

[IronEleven]

For the record, it took about a day of theorycrafting to come to this conclusion. Going to try testing how hot the new 3xcERLL laservomit meta would run once the test client installs.

[Nomad One]

Certain builds on stronger mechs are also simply not feasible anymore.

The amount of exposure one needs to do in a clan medium pulse or extended range small laser boat in order to get the same results as before is too much. Clan mechs can't take that level of punishment, and they're not nearly agile enough anymore to avoid it.

Even a 9 c-MPL timber wolf, that was finally lifted out of the muck with the removal of negative quirks, is now so much worse and requires so much exposure time to actually deal damage that its simply not worth it. By the time it'll have dealt 56.2 damage, an equivalent IS mech will have pumped out 70-80 damage into you and be in cover, or will simply outlast it by virtue of quirks.

This test, performed in a balancing vacuum like this, is utterly devoid of reason.

[PobbestGob]

Nomad One, on 13 July 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

Certain builds on stronger mechs are also simply not feasible anymore.

The amount of exposure one needs to do in a clan medium pulse or extended range small laser boat in order to get the same results as before is too much. Clan mechs can't take that level of punishment, and they're not nearly agile enough anymore to avoid it.

Even a 9 c-MPL timber wolf, that was finally lifted out of the muck with the removal of negative quirks, is now so much worse and requires so much exposure time to actually deal damage that its simply not worth it. By the time it'll have dealt 56.2 damage, an equivalent IS mech will have pumped out 70-80 damage into you and be in cover, or will simply outlast it by virtue of quirks.

This test, performed in a balancing vacuum like this, is utterly devoid of reason.

welcome to the extreme range meta bois, LRM/erLL/gauss the only viable clan builds left

[Andi Nagasia]

well if your taking 3 ERLL, thats 3 more tons you have to spend, where as 3 LPL is 5Tons more,
i am feeling that Clan assaults are getting some love from this, as they do have the tonnage to spend,

i personally feel the C-ERML was hit too hard it should have been reduced to 6, not 5.25,
that said having many C-ERML was already hot, so ive since moved to ERLLs,

my C-ERSL mechs arnt feeling too diffrent, yes i have to fire 1-2 additional times, but its not too bad,
the whole Small Laser Line need some love(all Small Lasers IS & Clan, STD, ER, & Pulse)


im abit mixed on the HLL damage reduction, it really needs a duration reduction or its damage restored,

Gauss seems fine,

[ForceUser]

Here's the problem. 6.3 KPH is a HUGE loss in speed for an assault, you don't mention the loss in ammo and the loss in heat efficiency (damage per heat) is sizeable, not a smidge. There's also the lost TC and JJ and the slightly lower alpha that all have an affect as well.

And also, your effective range is not doubled, less than half your previous alpha range gets an additional 400m. That's the only advantage the new build has. For everything it pays it gets to do 30pts of less heat efficient damage 400m further. the rest of the 40pt of damage gets to keep it's original range. And once the enemy closes into 450m that singular advantage is gone.

That means more assaults are going to be hanging back, not sharing armor, partly because they can't keep up and partly because most of their firepower is now at 600m+ so they want to stay far away.

Lastly, when fighting somewhat skilled people who are aware of the concept of torso twisting, the fact that you now have to fire your gauss at the end of the burn instead of the start means that you give skilled players over a second to react and torso twist, meaning the gauss rounds no longer hit the same spot as the lasers as they used to. And this isn't an idle thought, I literally experienced it in a match on the PTS while fighting 2 Laser Vom Dual Gauss Madcat Mk2s taking gauss on the arm instead of the ST.

So, with a straight face, you want to say that the Death Strike got stronger?

Edited by ForceUser, 13 July 2018 - 04:51 PM.

[Grus]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 July 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

well if your taking 3 ERLL, thats 3 more tons you have to spend, where as 3 LPL is 5Tons more,
i am feeling that Clan assaults are getting some love from this, as they do have the tonnage to spend,

i personally feel the C-ERML was hit too hard it should have been reduced to 6, not 5.25,
that said having many C-ERML was already hot, so ive since moved to ERLLs,

my C-ERSL mechs arnt feeling too diffrent, yes i have to fire 1-2 additional times, but its not too bad,
the whole Small Laser Line need some love(all Small Lasers IS & Clan, STD, ER, & Pulse)


im abit mixed on the HLL damage reduction, it really needs a duration reduction or its damage restored,

Gauss seems fine,

clan guass is a dumpster fire... far from "fine"...

What sort of benefit do we get from this change? Sure as hell isn't night damage like the HGauss... and IS gauss isn't getting this shake either right? Please, for the person who thought this was a good idea, stop... just stop. This change is about as smart as a screen door on a submarine...

[PobbestGob]

ForceUser, on 13 July 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

Here's the problem. 6.3 KPH is a HUGE loss in speed for an assault, you don't mention the loss in ammo and the loss in heat efficiency (damage per heat) is sizeable, not a smidge. There's also the lost TC and JJ and the slightly lower alpha that all have an affect as well.

And also, your effective range is not doubled, less than half your previous alpha range gets an additional 400m. That's the only advantage the new build has. For everything it pays it gets to do 30pts of less heat efficient damage 400m further. the rest of the 40pt of damage gets to keep it's original range. And once the enemy closes into 450m that singular advantage is gone.

That means more assaults are going to be hanging back, not sharing armor, partly because they can't keep up and partly because most of their firepower is now at 600m+ so they want to stay far away.

Lastly, when fighting somewhat skilled people who are aware of the concept of torso twisting, the fact that you now have to fire your gauss at the end of the burn instead of the start means that you give skilled players over a second to react and torso twist, meaning the gauss rounds no longer hit the same spot as the lasers as they used to. And this isn't an idle thought, I literally experienced it in a match on the PTS while fighting 2 Laser Vom Dual Gauss Madcat Mk2s taking gauss on the arm instead of the ST.

So, with a straight face, you want to say that the Death Strike got stronger?

64.8 to 58.5 isn't a big difference at all if you know how to position yourself. You can swap a medlas for the same ammo to raise your sustained dps at your preference, and with the ammo nodes both builds have enough ammo for a game regardless. You can jump an extra 5 meters in the old build, that's something, but really nothing when you're using the JJs to spread damage and jump turn, which is what they're used for on the DS, no? Your alpha damage goes down by only 2%, and that within the lower range. Your max dps goes up if we're being picky. The losses are minor issues for the substantial 400m of extra range that you mentioned, 600m more that the erLL can reach to. At the very worse the DS is unaffected, at best it is better. And for this we get significant nerfs to lower weight classes. The PTS isn't doing what it intended to and is hurting mechs that don't need the nerfs while buffing or not affecting the ones that do.

Edited by Kill2Blit, 13 July 2018 - 06:07 PM.

[SFC174]

I tried a 2 Gauss, 3 ERLL 2 ERML on my MCII-DS. Had to go somewhat slower than before and I didn't run any jump jets.

Played a round on Polar where I did 750 dmg, which is a lot against 4 mechs. So, on long range maps like that, yes, a 3 ERLL DS will be very, very mean. However, it ran hot as hell. It was cumbersome to play (I really hate the gauss shake - yes, I worked around it, but it's just so crude. It's one of the reasons I don't like playing HGauss builds either), and, despite doing all that dmg, it really wasn't much fun.

I think on hotter and shorter range maps it's going to be somewhat weaker, but I think that if you consider it on the whole, it will be one of the least affected mechs by these nerfs.

[The Lighthouse]

ForceUser, on 13 July 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

Here's the problem. 6.3 KPH is a HUGE loss in speed for an assault, you don't mention the loss in ammo and the loss in heat efficiency (damage per heat) is sizeable, not a smidge. There's also the lost TC and JJ and the slightly lower alpha that all have an affect as well.

And also, your effective range is not doubled, less than half your previous alpha range gets an additional 400m. That's the only advantage the new build has. For everything it pays it gets to do 30pts of less heat efficient damage 400m further. the rest of the 40pt of damage gets to keep it's original range. And once the enemy closes into 450m that singular advantage is gone.

That means more assaults are going to be hanging back, not sharing armor, partly because they can't keep up and partly because most of their firepower is now at 600m+ so they want to stay far away.

Lastly, when fighting somewhat skilled people who are aware of the concept of torso twisting, the fact that you now have to fire your gauss at the end of the burn instead of the start means that you give skilled players over a second to react and torso twist, meaning the gauss rounds no longer hit the same spot as the lasers as they used to. And this isn't an idle thought, I literally experienced it in a match on the PTS while fighting 2 Laser Vom Dual Gauss Madcat Mk2s taking gauss on the arm instead of the ST.

So, with a straight face, you want to say that the Death Strike got stronger?

Erm.... it was a huge loss, before engine desync.

But As long as you are faster than Annihilators which can go as slow as 45kph, speed loss is not a big deal.

What is big deal is effective range increase of the build. Also you can save up heat by just shooting ERLLs and Gauss Rifles from the long range, but it is not that great in most of quick play maps. But it will be devastating in faction play maps.

So yeah, from my experience, I can say with a straight face, DS got slightly stronger, sucking the blood from lighter clan mechs.

[50 50]

Well, the ER Large and ER Medium lasers are the only ones that now have a heat rating higher than their damage.
The DPS has only changed by a fraction.
It will mean that to get the same total damage output it will require an extra shot or two,

Nomad One, on 13 July 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

Even a 9 c-MPL timber wolf, that was finally lifted out of the muck with the removal of negative quirks,

They never lost the effect of the negative quirks, people seem to have missed the point that they got rolled into the base stats so they are actually still there, you just don't see them as 'negative quirks'.

[PobbestGob]

50 50, on 13 July 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

They never lost the effect of the negative quirks, people seem to have missed the point that they got rolled into the base stats so they are actually still there, you just don't see them as 'negative quirks'.

It was mentioned that even with the negative quirks rolled in to the base stats, there was a slight buff in mobility with the new mobility quirks. I haven't verified this myself though so not sure.

[50 50]

Kill2Blit, on 13 July 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

It was mentioned that even with the negative quirks rolled in to the base stats, there was a slight buff in mobility with the new mobility quirks. I haven't verified this myself though so not sure.

Mainly torso quirks like yaw rate and angle.
Couple of minor weapon buffs.
Not really mobility.

[Grus]

#STRONGERMECHSSTRONGER

[omnomtom]

Kill2Blit, on 13 July 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

It was mentioned that even with the negative quirks rolled in to the base stats, there was a slight buff in mobility with the new mobility quirks. I haven't verified this myself though so not sure.

A light buff to the mobility if you're using the triple energy or -S side torsos, a nerf to the mobility for builds that don't use it. The buff to mobility is very small though.

[Kiiiddd]

I just ran a 3x erLL Shadow Cat and it was stupid. It was hot as **** but the lack of face time needed for that 30 damage at far far ranges and the speed to reposion.

But then I ran a Laser Black Lanner and was very very very unimpressed

[BTGbullseye]

Grus, on 13 July 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

#STRONGERMECHSSTRONGER

Kicker is, that was primarily a dual LBX20 build with 6 ERML as backups... I think I would've done just fine without any lasers at all TBH.

[justcallme A S H]

ForceUser, on 13 July 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

Here's the problem. 6.3 KPH is a HUGE loss in speed for an assault, you don't mention the loss in ammo and the loss in heat efficiency (damage per heat) is sizeable, not a smidge. There's also the lost TC and JJ and the slightly lower alpha that all have an affect as well.

So, with a straight face, you want to say that the Death Strike got stronger?

Still going faster than anything IS with a comparable loadout... The Deathstrike does not lose out from this at all.

The mechs that do lose out are Light/Meds and most Heavies. Nothing the educated side of the community didn't already work out when this was announced.

[A Headless Chicken]

Hi guys, just here to add on to the new Clan extreme range meta theorycraft!

3ERLL 2Gauss NTG
9ERLL DWF
5ERLL 2Gauss DWF
6ERLL NCT
3ERLL 3ERML 2Gauss Deathstrike
5ERLL HBR
5ERLL EBJ

Hail to our new 600m+ overlords!

So we gave up on midrange (RIP MLs and SLs) and now we have the new extreme range Clan build meta where we shoot LRM boats from outside their effective range and make it apparent that window licking is bad. If a brawl is forced then Clans just roll over but that's nothing new, is it?

And say bye to some heavies (Hellfire DoA? Possibly) but mostly to mediums and lights.

[lazorbeamz]

Its nearly like it is a good thing because clan assaults need help anyway?

Besides if you bring erll and lpl, you sacrifice speed, DHS, target computers in return. And you have to live with long durations and low damage per heat values which makes you weak in most situations. These weapons take too much tonnage to be used at med range.

You are trying to say that you didnt have to suffer tradeoffs which you actually did.

And the EBJ, HBK-II and HBR are the mechs which never gotten better with this patch not even close. They are some of the primary targets of the nerf.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 14 July 2018 - 01:30 AM.