16 replies to this topic

[Ilfi]

While I'm tempted to also talk about blatantly obsoleted weapons like regular Clan ACs, Light Gauss, Light PPC, Light/Heavy MGs and RAC2s, I'll omit them since energy weapons display the most succinct parts of the issue.

This isn't a new problem, but it's one that's been getting worse between balance patches. MWO has a problem with redundant lasers. Too many lasers are virtually identical, so identical in both range, damage, DPS and DPH that there are very clear winners and losers, to the point where maybe ~30% of them worthwhile in serious play. Why has there been no effort made to differentiate and carve out niches for energy weapons, when so many are complete trash?

When you break it down ton by ton, it ends up being:
Clans restricted to SL, ER ML and HLL (all of which are receiving more nerfs),
and IS restricted to MPL, ML, ER ML and LL (half of which feel underwhelming without quirks).

Does this sound exciting to anyone? Having a selection of 30 weapons between both factions, but only 7 are worth taking because they're the clear winners in overlapping range brackets?

Is choosing between a Micro Pulse and Heavy Small an exciting choice? Even ignoring the fact that both of them are garbage, they're damn near clones!
-Exact same tonnage,
-The same DPS (+/- 0.04),
-The same DPH (+/- 0.04),
-The same range bracket (103m +/- 13m),
-the only "difference" is one shoots 3x as fast for 1/3rd the damage/duration.

What's the point?
There's way too much overlap in function between energy weapons.

Why take an HLL instead of an ER ML? Well, turns out the only reason is because they're in different ghost heat buckets. They're otherwise used in the exact same play style, for the exact same roles, with damage/duration/heat values that aren't big enough to make a difference (Note: they will become even more similar if Chris' ridiculous test numbers are forced through).

Micro Lasers? Too weak to see play.
Heavy Small/Medium Lasers? Too weak to see play.
Clan Small/Medium Pulse Lasers? Too weak to see play.
IS Small Lasers, SPLs, or LPLs? All too weak to see play.

When the awful weapons outnumber the good ones, is this really the way to go?

It's not even a situation where the meta lasers are maybe 10% better than the others; there are clear and exaggerated weaknesses that make things like uLs, SPLs, cMPLs, IS LPLs and on and on outright inferior. The current numbers make zero sense from a player perspective, and don't add up even if you go full Spreadsheet Warrior.

It's all too easy to go off on tangents and start pecking at the ever-growing laundry list of problems this game has, but this one has to be my biggest pet peeve.
-Forget about the fact that over 80% of Mech variants aren't worth buying.
-Forget about the fact that more and more play styles are systematically killed off by PGI, leading to the stale as hell meta we have now.
-Forget about the fact that, instead of useful patches, we get more nerfs to Clan Lasers that don't solve the problem, because "LOL! Let's fix Clan Alphas by buffing Deathstrike's optimal range!"
MWO's biggest problem is its growing collection of redundant and obsoleted weapons, a repeated trend that started damn near the end of 2012, well before Chris threw up his failed numbers on the PTS. The more useless weapons we have, the more we have our selection of viable strategies dwindle. More needs to be done to bring old trash up to speed, so that there IS a reason to field them. It may not be just lasers, but it is especially lasers that have this issue!

While I expect this critique to fall on deaf ears and sink in the cesspit that is MWO's brown sea, I pray someone at PGI takes this message to heart. It's not a one-off complaint; it's not something new, or something that will go away. Non-meta lasers and weapons need a reason to exist.

[IIXxXII]

Ilfi, on 17 July 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

While I'm tempted to also talk about blatantly obsoleted weapons like regular Clan ACs, Light Gauss, Light PPC, Light/Heavy MGs and RAC2s, I'll omit them since energy weapons display the most succinct parts of the issue.

Micro Lasers? Too weak to see play.
Heavy Small/Medium Lasers? Too weak to see play.
Clan Small/Medium Pulse Lasers? Too weak to see play.
IS Small Lasers, SPLs, or LPLs? All too weak to see play.

I use all of the weapons you listed as being "obsolete" or "too weak to see play" btw.

-Regular clan ACs are there for when UAC jam chance gets too high
-Light gauss has a longer effective range than normal gauss its niche area is devoted towards longer range sniping
-Light PPC allows a person to equip 2 LPPCs for 6 tons rather than the 7 tons for a normal PPC at the expense of more slots
-I've never used light or heavy machine guns or RAC2's but I have seen a lot of people using those weapons in QP.

As far as lasers go, a heavy small laser will deal more than 6 damage while weighing on 0.5 tons. Its heat ratio is also very low generating @ near to half the amount of heat in relation to damage. That makes it more viable than heavier lasers in several different ways. It has a better weight to damage ratio and a better damage to heat ratio. That's where its advantages lie. The same or similar applies to the other lasers you mentioned.

[Bud Crue]

Ilfi, on 17 July 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

What's the point?

To give the devs more things to nerf.
Duh.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Because this game is based on Battletech which has many of the same flaws you point out.

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

Keep underestimating the power of light gauss, makes my job easier.

[Vesper11]

Small IS (lack of) lasers:
SLs are nice if you have extra hardpoints, usually you don't thus you don't see them around.
Same with SPLs but it's easier to pick mech with more missile (SRM) hardpoints.
ERSL sucks a lot. Replace with any above or don't use at all, it's worse than bad clan cERSL.

Small clan crap:
cERmL suck, they have absolutely no redeeming feature, cSPL is superior.
cmPL sucks because it trades 2.5% (what a huge number...) better DPH than cSPL for no range and even if you boat them they are almost the same DPS as cSPLs.
cHSL sucks, for some stupid reason it has less range than SL unlike all other heavies and it has no redeeming qualities as "wow alpha" of heavies is irrelevant at this range and everything else is inferior to cSPL
cERSL is simply bad, cSPL is better choice.
I use cSPLs on Viper when I use it, and I don't use it, because cSPLs (in combo with MGs) aren't good enough anymore, that mean's that ****** lasers above are even worse than bad. SRMs have superior pretty much everything, no reason to bother with lasers when you can dump the mech and boat SRMs. (both sides) low range Pulses have to be buffed to make them competitive to SRMs.

Medium clan meh:
cHML sucks, it has nice alpha but low DPS and for superior peeking you'll just go with (c)ERMLs or cHLLs for long range harassment.
cMPL is actually quite nice but people prefer cERML because peek meta.

Large clan stuff:
(c)ERLLs are extreme range but meh.
cLPL is longer range cHLL alternative.

MWO holy lasers:
ML, both heat and weight efficient and has range unlike almost everything else IS has.
(c)ERML can do everything.
cHLL while good on its own for lighter mech to use to harass, it is simply too good to combo with cERML.


IMO
- Pulses should be redefined to something that will allow to transfer heat into damage FAST but at less efficiency than normal/heavy lasers or SRMs (or close to SRM efficiency for 100m and below lasers). Maybe make them continuous wub-wub with small fast dissipating "jam-like" bar so pilot can convert damage when it's not shielding but won't be able to do hueg amounts of it with small amount of lasers. Large pulses should probably be added to both large and medium/small GH groups to avoid boating.
This way lower range pulses will be suited to brawling as you'll be able to twist at any time you want while having good burst DPS and overall pulses will have their own niche so they don't compete with SRMs.
- Heavies could use even longer burn and slightly more damage (the smaller the laser the more damage buff it should get) and more heat efficiency to become something between lasers and IS RACs. Burn on cHLL should be too long to use effectively with cERMLs and give enemy enough time to torso twist. Thus it'll be inefficient to combo heavies with other lasers because they will either lack range matched by burn (heavy burn should still be longer even on small version) or burn will be way too long if matched by range.
The idea here is that for high efficiency you pay with ease of use. Having a very long burn will mean long facetime will put you at risk and make it easier for enemy to counter by twisting, but if you can attack precisely (like if light maneuvers around to keep sight on enemy), the resulting damage (and not so high heat) should pay off.
- cERmL should become (a bit inferior) version of IS SL to get the no-brain sidearm status
- (c)ERSLs simply need a buff.
- Large IS lasers need a large buff to DPH and maybe a very small buff to damage to be competitive to clan mediums and be worth the tonnage because atm it's simply better to go ballistics.

Edited by Vesper11, 17 July 2018 - 04:44 AM.

[Nightbird]

Nothing is obsolete, I use everything.

[Agent of Change]

Ilfi, on 17 July 2018 - 01:35 AM, said:

While I'm tempted to also talk about blatantly obsoleted weapons like regular Clan ACs, Light Gauss, Light PPC, Light/Heavy MGs and RAC2s,

*snip*

... Rac2's? Really , you think they are obsolete? that is hilarious

I am only commenting becasue you touched on a personal button for me. I mean I'm not even going to dive into the laser issue other than to say that DPS and DHS as an abstract number aren't everything. Rate of fire front loaded vs. face time etc are significant enough aspects of a weapon to functionally make them different.

Back to RAC2's. anyone who would argue that they are useless or obsolete has clearly never even tried them. I will go so far as to say if either RAC in game needs work it's the RAC5 being too hot, same RoF, and significantly lower fire time per ton of ammo compared to the 2's. Honestly I'm not here to argue about it just to point out how ridiculous a statement that is.

Edited by Agent of Change, 17 July 2018 - 06:14 AM.

[Magnus Santini]

Vesper11, on 17 July 2018 - 04:24 AM, said:

Small IS (lack of) lasers:
SLs are nice if you have extra hardpoints, usually you don't thus you don't see them around.
Same with SPLs but it's easier to pick mech with more missile (SRM) hardpoints.
ERSL sucks a lot. Replace with any above or don't use at all, it's worse than bad clan cERSL.
. . .
MWO holy lasers:
ML, both heat and weight efficient and has range unlike almost everything else IS has.

The occasional light mech that has MGs and one ton for one energy slot has this dilemma. Almost nothing you take is going to make any significant difference. The 10 mandatory heat sinks mean this thing is going to be 2/2 heat even if you pull the control rods out of the reactor. So it can be one SPL for 3? damage (ineffective), or one ML/ERML for 5 (spread damage in knife fight and the "longer" range to put that damage on an enemy is not so helpful). So I say take whatever one is the nicest color.

[Captain Polux]

The Rac-2s and light/heavy machine guns wrecks face. Can't speak for the other "obsolete" weapons because I don't use them.

As for lasers, I don't use any small lasers, but the others are fine.

What weapons do you use?

[FupDup]

This is a big part of why I've been suggesting that certain laser types like pulses should get entirely different firing mechanics from normal lasers (i.e. "laser machine guns").

[Alex Morgaine]

Laser issues? well as they are, most are usable, just different. harder? maybe, but I wouldn't say useless.

ER smalls I've found are useful if you have a lot of E slots available but not much tonnage and heat capacity, range is close yeah but 2 er smalls can just about match a normal IS medium, minus specific quirks just barely better.

SPL.... having issues using them still though a few of my IS brawlers have them for refire rate and fast duration.

LPL can still be useable paired with IS ML, but I dont really have much use on clan mechs, theres just not as much blending on the few clan mechs I have. maybe 3LPL after the patch.

Mirco er lasers... um... 2 is just about a small laser? haven't found much of a use for them... yet.

Micro pulse are a bit of an issue meta wise. I have had fun paired with heavy mg as suicide ultra fail fisty cuff mechs... 3 or 4 of them and you have a tiny mech laser sword

...
made a laser cutlass for my cougar XD
Just needs a Comissar's cap. "CHARGE THE HERETICS, I'M GOING IN WITH MY SABER"

[Bohxim]

Vesper11, on 17 July 2018 - 04:24 AM, said:

Small IS (lack of) lasers:
SLs are nice if you have extra hardpoints, usually you don't thus you don't see them around.
Same with SPLs but it's easier to pick mech with more missile (SRM) hardpoints.
ERSL sucks a lot. Replace with any above or don't use at all, it's worse than bad clan cERSL.

Small clan crap:
cERmL suck, they have absolutely no redeeming feature, cSPL is superior.
cmPL sucks because it trades 2.5% (what a huge number...) better DPH than cSPL for no range and even if you boat them they are almost the same DPS as cSPLs.
cHSL sucks, for some stupid reason it has less range than SL unlike all other heavies and it has no redeeming qualities as "wow alpha" of heavies is irrelevant at this range and everything else is inferior to cSPL
cERSL is simply bad, cSPL is better choice.
I use cSPLs on Viper when I use it, and I don't use it, because cSPLs (in combo with MGs) aren't good enough anymore, that mean's that ****** lasers above are even worse than bad. SRMs have superior pretty much everything, no reason to bother with lasers when you can dump the mech and boat SRMs. (both sides) low range Pulses have to be buffed to make them competitive to SRMs.

Medium clan meh:
cHML sucks, it has nice alpha but low DPS and for superior peeking you'll just go with (c)ERMLs or cHLLs for long range harassment.
cMPL is actually quite nice but people prefer cERML because peek meta.

Large clan stuff:
(c)ERLLs are extreme range but meh.
cLPL is longer range cHLL alternative.

MWO holy lasers:
ML, both heat and weight efficient and has range unlike almost everything else IS has.
(c)ERML can do everything.
cHLL while good on its own for lighter mech to use to harass, it is simply too good to combo with cERML.


IMO
- Pulses should be redefined to something that will allow to transfer heat into damage FAST but at less efficiency than normal/heavy lasers or SRMs (or close to SRM efficiency for 100m and below lasers). Maybe make them continuous wub-wub with small fast dissipating "jam-like" bar so pilot can convert damage when it's not shielding but won't be able to do hueg amounts of it with small amount of lasers. Large pulses should probably be added to both large and medium/small GH groups to avoid boating.
This way lower range pulses will be suited to brawling as you'll be able to twist at any time you want while having good burst DPS and overall pulses will have their own niche so they don't compete with SRMs.
- Heavies could use even longer burn and slightly more damage (the smaller the laser the more damage buff it should get) and more heat efficiency to become something between lasers and IS RACs. Burn on cHLL should be too long to use effectively with cERMLs and give enemy enough time to torso twist. Thus it'll be inefficient to combo heavies with other lasers because they will either lack range matched by burn (heavy burn should still be longer even on small version) or burn will be way too long if matched by range.
The idea here is that for high efficiency you pay with ease of use. Having a very long burn will mean long facetime will put you at risk and make it easier for enemy to counter by twisting, but if you can attack precisely (like if light maneuvers around to keep sight on enemy), the resulting damage (and not so high heat) should pay off.
- cERmL should become (a bit inferior) version of IS SL to get the no-brain sidearm status
- (c)ERSLs simply need a buff.
- Large IS lasers need a large buff to DPH and maybe a very small buff to damage to be competitive to clan mediums and be worth the tonnage because atm it's simply better to go ballistics.

Not sure where you're getting your info from, but based on smurfy (which I assume is pretty current with stats), cmpl is 1.47dph while cspl is 1.95. That's about 25% less while optimum range is 330 vs 165 which is double its range. Sure it's good a worse dpt, but it's actually got a higher dps than cspl. Cmpl ebj, hbr, hbkiic, crow are all still solid performers.
Also, I still rather enjoy the ersl novas and erml hbr, hbkiic and vipers. Whilst it may not exactly be a "for all" weapon, maybe chassis can still run them nicely imo. I prefer them over cspl anyday

[MechaBattler]

I think they should give small lasers lower cooldowns across the board. I mean you have to get criminally close to use them anyway. And the rapid cooldown interval means more face time. Plus they'll stack up better against MGs. Though still beholden to heat limitations. So it wouldn't be anywhere near OP.

[Agent of Change]

MechaBattler, on 17 July 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

I think they should give small lasers lower cooldowns across the board. I mean you have to get criminally close to use them anyway. And the rapid cooldown interval means more face time. Plus they'll stack up better against MGs. Though still beholden to heat limitations. So it wouldn't be anywhere near OP.

I just wanted to repeat this. SL's of all stripes could use a little love, usually in the form of cooldown or heat adjustments.
.

[Almond Brown]

Bud Crue, on 17 July 2018 - 03:08 AM, said:

To give the devs "playa's" more things to nerf whine about.
Duh.

FTFY.

Edited by Almond Brown, 17 July 2018 - 10:32 AM.

[thievingmagpi]

IS SPL are actually secretly good