42 replies to this topic

[Kiiiddd]

This makes perfect sense and would actually nerf the mechs that they want to nerf while the "higher" mobility mechs can play around the duration nerf easier

[Capn Cat]

Excellent summation and I look forward to seeing your suggestions on a forthcoming PTS

[zudukai]

we definitely need to diversify the balance and buff the under-preforming and dead weight weapons. :PGT:

Edited by zudukai, 18 July 2018 - 08:33 PM.

[Krasnopesky]

Excellent video, I hope PGI take it seriously.

An across the board mobility increase would be amazing for this game. PGI doesn't need to go so far as to make MWO into a twitch shooter, but let us say a 20-25% mobility buff for all mechs would be very welcome in my opinion.

[old man odin]

100% agree with Taro's video, good work man.

[Nightbird]

IronEleven, on 18 July 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

Taragato is suggesting emphasizing clan lasers' drawbacks more instead of lowering their alpha.

Not on PGI's radar. Been trying for a long time.

https://mwomercs.com...-server-chance/

[50 50]

Tarogato, on 18 July 2018 - 11:30 AM, said:

It won't do that, lol.

I'm honestly not sure what to do about the AC2 meta in Solaris. I mean, you can ban the ANH-2A from Solaris, but there's still the problem that AC2 is still the best option for most RFL, JM6, DWF, etc. And I'm not sure that AC2s need a nerf in the grand scheme of the game. It's only really problematic in Solaris. I haven't put much thought into it.

There are some specific weapon adjustments to MGs and Flamers that only apply in Solaris.
I don't see why that couldn't be extended to other weapons for that mode should they be a problem in that mode

Similarly for all the weapons.
At this stage of the game I do not see a good enough reason to not merge the weapons and equipment into one tech line so that there is only 1 ER medium laser, 1 Large Pulse Laser etc.
If it's a point of difference that is wanted for Faction Play, then we should push for having faction based modifiers so that a Large Laser for the IS does function differently to that same large laser when used by the clan.

But for Quick Play, this levels the playing field.

For the Gauss.
Personally the shake did more to make me feel dizzy and sick than actually hinder being able to shoot a target.
Energy Draw might have had an alternative answer to how one could combine laser fire with the gauss charge (ie. a limited pool to draw from with a recharge rate that could cause the weapons to desync.) That keeps it away from the heat rules.

[Solahma]

SFC174, on 18 July 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

That said, it's hard to get behind even bigger increases to clan laser duration. While it might make sense on paper, at some point certain mechanics just become no fun to play.

But think of this as longer duration versus lower damage. I'd much rather have a longer duration and higher damage to differentiate Clan tech from IS. You are rewarded with a higher damage potential if you can hold your beam on target instead of the samey "wet noodle" flashlights they become with lower damage output.

Duration is a fine-balance thing, where very small changes have very large impacts to the feel and performance. So making large changes isn't a good idea. I can't help but think of PGI's attempt at #InfoTech when they required several seconds of targeting time to impact weapon ranges. That was another example of FINE tuning, where things would have felt much better working with numbers like 1/2, 3/4, 1 second rather than 1, 2, 3 second targeting times. Same is true with duration.

I agree that making duration too long can feel bad, but it's still the best balancing point while maintaining clan tech flavor. If you want tighter duration, you take IS mechs. I want there to be a choice.

[Josh Seles]

Tarogato, on 18 July 2018 - 06:06 AM, said:

If the changes in this PTS were introduced to the live game, I would immediately want a full rollback of all changes. I do not like these changes.

Thank you for running the PTS to experiment with such extremely drastic changes, at least we didn't have deal with this mess happening on the live client for a month or more.




Gauss Recoil - BAD
This is clunky, and it has a loophole. It's not an effective nerf if I can get around it, and it just adds frustration to the weapon and removes one of the styles to using it. It already has a charge mechanic (and an explosion mechanic), we don't need to add any more complication to it.

If you want to prevent Gauss from being fired with other weapons, then ... don't.
The best way would probably be to add it to all relevant ghost heat groups, but I don't like the idea that a heat-free weapon gets ghost heat penalties, that just seems incredibly dumb and unintuititive to me.



ClanERSmallLaser - VERY BAD
This weapon, imo, does not need to be nerfed, at all. It was already nerfed in the June 2017 rebalance, then again in July 2017, then again in February 2018.

If anything, I expect this weapon to receive a buff, because I feel it has been slightly overnerfed.



ClanERMediumLaser - BAD
The damage was nerfed WAY too much. It now has only 5% more damage than the IS version, and that is not enough of a differential. The absolutely lowest I would go is 6.0 damage, but I would prefer 6.5. Right now, the cERML is almost universally inferior to the IS ERML, and if you want to improve it without raising damage, than you'll have to buff heat, cooldown, or duration, which means just making it more similar to the IS version, leading to symmetricalisation of the two factions in a game where they are supposed to be balanced asymmetrically.

Rather than nerfing the damage, I would nerf the duration. If this were on live I would start with a 10% nerf, but since you are running PTS, I would go for a 15% nerf. (remember, SkillTree reduces laser durations by 10%, so a 10% nerf is effectively nullified by SkillTree)



ClanERLargeLaser - MOSTLY BAD
The damage reduction isn't that bad, but I think it tips the balance way too far in favour of the IS ERLL. So to compensate for this, you will have to reduce the cooldown, heat, or duration. Which leads to undesirably symmetricalisation of the factions.



ClanMediumPulseLaser - BAD
I don't see the need to nerf this weapon's damage. It isn't used all that frequently, due to the two-ton requirement. A nerf to the cERML duration might see more people switch to cMPL, and put us in a better place to assess whether the cMPL needs nerfs or not. If anything, I might increase the duration on cMPL to something like 1.0 if absolutely necessary.



ClanLargePulseLaser - OKAY
The cLPL was, imo, probably the weakest of Clan large family, just due to its extra tonnage cost. This damage nerf could make that probably even worse in that regard.

However, before the introduction of cHLL and buffs to cERLL, the cLPL was the strongest, and it definitely was a step above most other weapons in the game. So I do support a slight nerf to this weapon. However, I think 10 damage is a bit weird, because that makes it the same as the IS LPL. It should deal more damage than IS, imo.



ClanHeavyMediumLaser - BAD
I don't think this weapon needs any nerf. It already has extremely short range, extremely high heat, and extremely long duration. I personally don't use it that much. I would rather use an IS Medium Laser, which at the same limited range at least it can keep shooting. If anything, I expect buffs for the cHML.



ClanHeavyLargeLaser - OKAY
16 damage is the lowest I would go for this weapon. It might be okay like this.

It needs to be unequivocally the longest duration laser in the game (large lasers have longer duration than smaller ones, and heavy lasers have longer duration than other types) and as you reduce the damage on this weapon, you may need to reduce the duration on it, which goes counter to its design philosophy.



Triple Large Ghost Heat - BAD
This is too much of a buff to a loadout which you are trying to reduce the alpha effectiveness of. It also opens the doors for easier boating of cERLL and cLPL. It is also a prime example of symmetricalisation between the factions. I do not like this change in any way whatsoever. Ctrl+Z.







What I would like to see

Try nerfing duration instead for the offending weapons:

- cERML
- cERLL
- cHLL
- cLPL


Try buffing all the weapons that have been unduly nerfed over the past year, which serve as counters to laservomit:

- SRM spread
- SPL / cSPL damage
- UAC heat
- IS Medium cooldown


Try buffing all the weapons that have almost always been awful and could serve as counters to laservomit:

- UAC20s
- Clan ACs
- IS Small / ER Small
- Micros
- Light Gauss
- IS PPCs

-video snipped-

I agree with everything here except one item: nerfing durations. Out of 11 different Clan lasers, I only use really use 2: the Large Pulse and Medium Pulse. Mainly due to durations. Those 2 are the only Clan lasers I consider usable at all because I don't have to stare at my opponents for what feels like an eternity. Using the duration nodes in Skill Tree helped, but not enough, so I made the switch to Pulse lasers and just dumped all my firepower tree investments into survivability, mobility, ops, and sensors.

All other Clan lasers fall into 3 personal categories:
- Too long of burns (Heavies, C-ER Med, C-ER Small)
- Too hot (Heavies, ER Med)
- Anemic (C-ER Small, C-Small Pulse, Micros)

I have considered using the C-ER Large, but just the shorter burn on the C-Large Pulse utterly trumps the C-ER LL's better range, weight and size.

Krasnopesky, on 18 July 2018 - 07:29 PM, said:

Excellent video, I hope PGI take it seriously.

An across the board mobility increase would be amazing for this game. PGI doesn't need to go so far as to make MWO into a twitch shooter, but let us say a 20-25% mobility buff for all mechs would be very welcome in my opinion.

I assume you're referring to torso twisting to mitigate damage, and if you are, I agree with you completely as well. Even your suggested 20-25% increase. Make torso twisting a thing again.

[Y E O N N E]

We independently arrive at the same conclusions, but with different choices in how to address the game.

Nice.

[C E Dwyer]

I do agre I think duration should be the balancing point in cl lasers, but I seem to remember people on these forums bleating about how clan laser duration was to long and they were exposed to much.

This is probably why P.G.I have gone for damage.

That and they want to make the new failed pet project work.

As with many other things you have work cut out, but you have my kindest regards

[MischiefSC]

I've become a big fan of fun > lore. As such I would like burn times to stay under 1.5.

I'm also a fan of shifting any values - even heat for Gauss. I want it balanced but Clan/IS distinct. Lore values don't really matter to me anymore.

[xe N on]

I'm a little bit indifferent. While IS heavy and assault mechs can have some nice laser vomit (3 LL + x ERML), IS mediums mostly have problems to compete with clan mediums in fielding lasers.

Just compare a laser vomit or wub-SCR or HBK-II with the GRF-1E ... I have all three, I play all three and the laser SCR/HBK-II are so much better than the GRF-1E in every aspect.

Edited by xe N on, 22 July 2018 - 11:14 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

xe N on, on 22 July 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

I'm a little bit indifferent. While IS heavy and assault mechs can have some nice laser vomit (3 LL + x ERML), IS mediums mostly have problems to compete with clan mediums in fielding lasers.

Just compare a laser vomit or wub-SCR or HBK-II with the GRF-1E ... I have all three, I play all three and the laser SCR/HBK-II are so much better than the GRF-1E in every aspect.

I would say IS Mediums are more competitive with Clan Mediums at laser vomit than IS Assaults are with Clan Assaults. Mediums have enough agility where the short IS burn can actually count for something while Assaults do not.

The strong vomit Mediums for IS are the HBK-4P (1x LPL + 6x ML or 7x MPL) and BJ-1X (8x ML/ERML). Special shout-out to the UZL-6P and all of the Crabs for Medium Pulse boating. The Sparky really doesn't have anything going for it as a laser vomit 'Mech; not enough hardpoints, low mounts for 4 out of 6 guns...having -10% heat is just not enough.

[Viking Yelling]

I approve this.

[xe N on]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

I would say IS Mediums are more competitive with Clan Mediums at laser vomit than IS Assaults are with Clan Assaults. Mediums have enough agility where the short IS burn can actually count for something while Assaults do not.

The strong vomit Mediums for IS are the HBK-4P (1x LPL + 6x ML or 7x MPL) and BJ-1X (8x ML/ERML). Special shout-out to the UZL-6P and all of the Crabs for Medium Pulse boating. The Sparky really doesn't have anything going for it as a laser vomit 'Mech; not enough hardpoints, low mounts for 4 out of 6 guns...having -10% heat is just not enough.

Hardpoints isn't necessary the problem. For SCR / HBK-II, I mostly only use 6 energy hardpoints for either 6 cmpl or 2 HLL and 3-4 CERML.

HBK-4P (1x LPL + 6x ML or 7x MPL): First build might be ok, but still not competitive currently against 6 cmpl SCR or HBK-II. 7 mpl draw ghost heat, so either hot or long facing time. The cmpl has 0,9 duration, which is good enough.

UZL-6P and Crabs. Same problem as the GRF. I own them. UZL-6P is even worse than GRF regarding quirks. So I don't understand why you field them. 6 MPL is just undergunned for an 50-500 ton medium mech, even the wolfhound usually field 5.

Edited by xe N on, 22 July 2018 - 08:31 PM.

[LordNothing]

i think id restructure the gh groups. put erml in the same gh group as lpl and hll, these weapons synergize and need to be limited together. any weapons with any kind of range symmetry need to share a gh group. most smalls and micros would get their own group though i might put ersmall in the same group as the hml and medpulse. that should kill all the synergy points that are relevant to high alpha builds.

im not really sure what to do about gauss but this isnt it and i certainly dont want to have to deal with recoil on single gauss builds. maybe gausses need something like ghost charge time or something when multiples are used.

[Y E O N N E]

xe N on, on 22 July 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

Hardpoints isn't necessary the problem. For SCR / HBK-II, I mostly only use 6 energy hardpoints for either 6 cmpl or 2 HLL and 3-4 CERML.

It is for IS. You need 7-9 energy hardpoints to get an alpha size that's competitive. That said, alpha size isn't everything if you have other factors in play (see: Uziel, Crab).

Quote

HBK-4P (1x LPL + 6x ML or 7x MPL): First build might be ok, but still not competitive currently against 6 cmpl SCR or HBK-II. 7 mpl draw ghost heat, so either hot or long facing time. The cmpl has 0,9 duration, which is good enough.

I will take the HBK-4P before I take the SCR; the higher mounts let it ridge-hump infinitely better than the SCR can and the firepower isn't in squishy arms. HBK-IIC-A is harder to call, but with the max range getting whacked down to 480 meters on the cMPL, it's really a wash between that and the two IS flavors.

The ghost heat from 7x MPL is also not much, being exactly 1.14 more points than firing 6x cMPL. But then you factor in the 5% heat gen quirk and it ends up at 0.34 points less. Throw on the more powerful IS heat-gen nodes, and it goes even lower. It has higher max DPS than the IIC-A even before its cooldown quirks come into play, making it better at putting a target down quickly, and the sustained DPS is close enough that it doesn't make a difference. That all being said, I agree that the MPL build is the weaker of the two suggestions, but that's because the 10% duration quirk letting IS ML duration go down to 0.675 seconds after skill tree makes the heavier, shorter-ranged, and hotter-running MPL build largely irrelevant.

When comparing the 6x cMPL HBK-IIC-A to the HBK-4P, the Clan one has Jump Jets and a slight edge in firepower while the IS one has more hit-points and a dramatically shorter duration (-0.235 seconds). Heat is a wash, IS one has more range (irony).

The HBK-IIC-A's bigger strength is the cERLL+cERML vomit, which IS cannot replicate, but then you are sacrificing efficacy against Lights and fast Mediums for increased potency against Assaults and it's not really apples to apples.


Even the ghost heat from 8x MedLas on the BJ-1X is easily managed by 18 DHS, especially with the massive range extension ir receives (I run mine with a TC1, so I have 347 meters out of standard MedLas). The ghost heat on 8x ER MedLas is harder to manage,

Quote

UZL-6P and Crabs. Same problem as the GRF. I own them. UZL-6P is even worse than GRF regarding quirks. So I don't understand why you field them. 6 MPL is just undergunned for an 50-500 ton medium mech, even the wolfhound usually field 5.

UZL has all six weapons in high mounts, superior agility, and still has JJs. It can therefore attack with the lasers while taking less return fire than the Sparky. It also has a range quirk, which further augments this capability. Like the HBK, it can poke a ridge and maneuver around the front line much, much better than a Griffin can.

The Crab will not win trades due to its low weapons, but that's not its forte. Its forte is in pushing and, with its hitboxes and durability, it will make mockery of the firepower on a IIC-A as it drills its CT.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 July 2018 - 09:15 PM.

[xe N on]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

It is for IS. You need 7-9 energy hardpoints to get an alpha size that's competitive. That said, alpha size isn't everything if you have other factors in play (see: Uziel, Crab).

I agree here, but want to contribute, that this is only necessary to compete with clan mechs higher alpha strikes.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

I will take the HBK-4P before I take the SCR; the higher mounts let it ridge-hump infinitely better than the SCR can and the firepower isn't in squishy arms. HBK-IIC-A is harder to call, but with the max range getting whacked down to 480 meters on the cMPL, it's really a wash between that and the two IS flavors.

I run my SCR as asymmetric build with 3 CMPL in the right arm and 3 CMPL in torso/head. It's twists nicely, so I only loose my right arm by some bad luck. So, I have no problem here. High mounts are nice, but not necessary, since you can also side peek in most situations. Good mounts become less interesting in open brawling situations and against fast brawlers, like lights that try to out-circle you - here arm mounts shine.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

The ghost heat from 7x MPL is also not much, being exactly 1.14 more points than firing 6x cMPL. But then you factor in the 5% heat gen quirk and it ends up at 0.34 points less. Throw on the more powerful IS heat-gen nodes, and it goes even lower. It has higher max DPS than the IIC-A even before its cooldown quirks come into play, making it better at putting a target down quickly, and the sustained DPS is close enough that it doesn't make a difference. That all being said, I agree that the MPL build is the weaker of the two suggestions, but that's because the 10% duration quirk letting IS ML duration go down to 0.675 seconds after skill tree makes the heavier, shorter-ranged, and hotter-running MPL build largely irrelevant.

I don't have the 4P, so I can neither confirm nor agree.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

When comparing the 6x cMPL HBK-IIC-A to the HBK-4P, the Clan one has Jump Jets and a slight edge in firepower while the IS one has more hit-points and a dramatically shorter duration (-0.235 seconds). Heat is a wash, IS one has more range (irony).

An duration of +245 ms is negligible in most situations.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

The HBK-IIC-A's bigger strength is the cERLL+cERML vomit, which IS cannot replicate, but then you are sacrificing efficacy against Lights and fast Mediums for increased potency against Assaults and it's not really apples to apples.

Agree here.

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

UZL has all six weapons in high mounts, superior agility, and still has JJs. It can therefore attack with the lasers while taking less return fire than the Sparky. It also has a range quirk, which further augments this capability. Like the HBK, it can poke a ridge and maneuver around the front line much, much better than a Griffin can.

I side-poke mostly with my 1E. In open brawling situations, which occurs because of the limited range of MPLs or LPLs/MLs, high hardpoints are not that relevant. GRFs are not as agile as the the UZL, but still not that bad. UZL in contrast has very bad hotbox, while GRFs are good arm tanker (which is irony, because the 1E have most of its weapon hardpoints in it's arms)

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

The Crab will not win trades due to its low weapons, but that's not its forte. Its forte is in pushing and, with its hitboxes and durability, it will make mockery of the firepower on a IIC-A as it drills its CT.

Cannot confirm that. I also rarely see Craps. Craps are so badly hurt after scale nerf that I stopped playing them. Took bushwalkers instead. But that are missiles boats.

In summery I can only say that I score in average 1/4 higher and farm more kills in my SCR/HBK-II in contrast to my laser vomit IS mechs, like Craps, GRF-1E or UZL. It's hard to not tend to prefer clan mediums if going vo lasers.

Edited by xe N on, 23 July 2018 - 09:06 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Maybe buy an HBK-4P and try an actually good IS vomit Medium so you can get a better comparison, yeah? They aren't expensive.