71 replies to this topic

[Kroete]

Lances107, on 22 July 2018 - 03:32 AM, said:

Have you bothered to run machine guns against the fresh front armor of mediums, heavies, and assaults? You will run out of bullets, even with 12 machine guns, before you get anywhere.
...
First if the victim is dumb enough to be running with 5 points or less on his rear armor in a heavy or assault.

10 seconds for 120 frontarmor using 1200 bullets,
5 seconds for a fresh leg with 60 armor using 600 bullets.
1 seconds for 12 backarmor using 120 bullets.

How much bullets do you get for half a ton of mg ammo?

Edited by Kroete, 22 July 2018 - 04:17 AM.

[Shadowomega1]

El Bandito, on 21 July 2018 - 08:01 PM, said:

MW4 mechs were even weaker. My Executioner could make an Assault's CT internals cherry red in one shot, with a mix of CGauss and CERLL, and the shots were so easy to make since the lasers had no duration and Gauss had no charge. In fact, builds that can one-shot Assault mechs from the front could have been done easily in MW4, if not for its coding that forced a mech to die in two shots at minimum. It was only thanks to Ghost Heat that MWO is not in similar situation.

Is that last part a joke?

As MWO has double armor and internals which prevent that.

[Y E O N N E]

Shadowomega1, on 22 July 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

Is that last part a joke?

As MWO has double armor and internals which prevent that.

No, it's not a joke. MWO lets you create builds that can two-shot an Assault and the only reason they don't get played is because they can't be alpha'd without shutting down and [generally] dying. They have to be staggered around.

[Jackal Noble]

Kroete, on 22 July 2018 - 04:14 AM, said:

10 seconds for 120 frontarmor using 1200 bullets,
5 seconds for a fresh leg with 60 armor using 600 bullets.
1 seconds for 12 backarmor using 120 bullets.

How much bullets do you get for half a ton of mg ammo?

How many potatoes can a potato potate?

[Shadowomega1]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

No, it's not a joke. MWO lets you create builds that can two-shot an Assault and the only reason they don't get played is because they can't be alpha'd without shutting down and [generally] dying. They have to be staggered around.

Dual Gauss and 3 ERLL in MW4 generates 32 heat for 60 damage, which would put the mech at shut down in MW4 if not override was not used. The same mech in MWO would 63 damage but not be at heat cap, and could fire again in about 4 seconds compared to 8 seconds in MW4.

The mass alpha strike on the Death Strike people keep point out is Dual Gauss, Dual HLL, and 4 ERML is 94 damage, generates 54 heat way over that 30 heat cap MW3 and MW4 had, all while in MWO this build brings the mech to a balmy 60% to 70% of the mechs heat.

My MWO Nova Cat Prime 3x cERLL and 2x cERPPC can fire all of its weapons for 53 damage + 10 splash damage and hit 94% heat for over about 70 points of heat. (Factoring ERLL ghost heat as additional 10 heat). In MW4 that would be 60 damage for 60 heat, Twice the heat cap of 30 and near instant destruction of my own mech on weapons that could fire every 8 seconds.

[Y E O N N E]

You might want to re-frame your original statement, because it's not clear what part about Bandito's post you are incredulous about.

[Shadowomega1]

Where Ghost Heat keeps a build like he described from MW4 being prevented from two shooting in MWO.

Ghost Heat is currently a band aid on a broken leg, with many holes in it. Top this off with Heat cap that allows for more than 30 heat (Heat cap about 100 (Heat cap of my SNV-C)) coupled with many high punch, high range weapons being able to fire every 4 seconds leads to a poke meta.

Went into game to get this data.

20/10 on DHS on my SNV-C

DHS out of engine add 1.5 heat cap, I hear the 10 in engine have 2.0 heat cap.

On top of that I have 4/5 Heat Capacity Nodes in the skill tree which is 3% each node.

Firing 1 ERLL generates 10% heat, Firing 2 generate 20% heat, Firing 3 ERLL generates 40% heat, Firing 4 Generates 60% heat.

If I fire all 4 ERLL and the 2 HLL it is a shut down but no internal Damage taken, and I start up right away.

Edited by Shadowomega1, 22 July 2018 - 11:54 AM.

[Vonbach]

Quote

[color=#959595]In re PIRs: if it wasn't PIRs causing problems it would be something else.[/color]
[color=#959595]As long as PGI provides select mechs, with many hard points (PIR), or select high hard points (Kodiak, MCII) or other features that allow a specific chassis or variant to do things that no other mechs can even come close to doing in terms of performance, than such mechs are going to be problematic.[/color]

The Piranha was Overpowered on tabletop and its overpowered in the game. Its designed to exploit the crit system.
It just needs to go away it never should've been added in the first place.

[Damnedtroll]

Pir, Tanky ??? you cut it in half with a landed alpha.

Pir scary ? Yep a Piranha is a hellish mech but a good hit and he return to hell quite fast.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 22 July 2018 - 12:19 PM.

[Lykaon]

I Come In Peace, on 21 July 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

Everyone enjoys different elements of MWO and plays for different reasons.

However, I think a majority of us are MWO PUGs to excel, specifically to have a good damage output for mechs designed for damage.

In this manner, I believe the game has failed and have stopped playing as a result.

Principle - A good pilot making good decisions in a good mech built to achieve good damage should have a good game as far as damage, maybe 4 out of 5 games. The 1 bad game out of 5 comes more from plain old bad luck or a team that did not fully gel.

The ratio is about 4 out of 5. It depends on several factors like what server, what time of day, whether you had been drinking, etc. But the ratio that at least I would be happy with is ~around~ 4 out of 5.

Good damage will also be hard to agree with, but for builds specifically designed for damage, 300 for lights (who are designed less for damage and more for scouting, flanking, back damage), 400 for mediums, 500 for heavy's and maybe 600 for assaults.

Why I think the game fails the principle is a perfect storm of issues in 3 areas of the game:
- Nascar - Someone that has played more or analyzed MWO more can explain why Nascar occurs better than me. The fact is, the amount of Nascar in PUG causes failure of the principle. Either you are too slow, you took your eyes off the map for a few seconds, or you are the problem and you are trying to kill enemies that are too slow or forgetting to move with their team. In any case, if you want to keep your damage up, you actually need to contribute to the issue by moving farther ahead of your slower teammates and take advantage of the free damage against the enemy's back.

- PIRs - lightest, fastest, tanky, heatless mechs in the game. If I am in a medium, it goes through my back armor in ~3 seconds. No chance. You see half the time a PIR gets 3-5 kills in a game. While I would not call it OP, because it has its share of bad games as well, its good games definitely contribute to MWO failing the principle.

- LRMs - I may be subjective because I do not use LRMs. And I am okay with their ability. The issue is Map Picker + Polar Highlands = LRMrs using their weighted votes to have Polar Highlands chosen where they are OP. The issue with that is that brawlish types are severely handicapped in this map. Perhaps not in all modes but most of them. Trading brawls are where a lot of the fun and skill in MWO resides. LRMrs also share armor less, are less likely to be assertive and in general not play any tactics or strategies. MM adding a large ratio of LRMrs on one team causes failure of the principle.

How might I fix MWO?
- Nascar - Will leave it up to analysts much more experienced than I am to figure out how to stop nascars. Perhaps more underlying structure for assaults? Perhaps have a turret consumable or a free UAV for assaults to help them slow a rush and get some damage in?
- PIRs - Maybe machine guns should do almost no damage unless a mech is opened up, and even then the damage should be limited.
- LRMs - Remove the Map Picker or fix Polar HIghlands to have more hiding places to protect against LRMrs. Adjust MM to account for weapon types like LRMs.

Would love to hear constructive feedback. And maybe you have other areas where MWO fails the principle. Perhaps synch dropping? Hopefully you understand the intent here which is to help what I think makes MWO less enjoyable to play so people (like myself) looking to excel will want to play MWO again.

Ok here we go....


NASCAR: simple solution....try counter clockwise once in a while! or realisticly try using your in game VOIP to coordinate with your team mates to actually get them to try counter clockwise

PIR-1 Piranha is the specific mech you have an issue with yet.. you target machine guns ? or more specificly MG/LMGs/HMGs the whole machine gun catagory of weapons. What about Inner sphere machine guns? those too?
And you cite piloting a medium mech and being vulnerable? The medium weight class is arguably the best at killing lights.
Depending upon your medium mech of choice and loadout you probably have a very good chance of killing a Piranha. So if this match up doesn't suit you I doubt nerfing MGs into the ground will help you when you run up against a PIR-2.

LRMs...ooohhh boy this one again....

Should the match maker also make adjustments the other way? what about LRMs on Solaris city/mining collective/HPG manifold/Canyon network/river city/Crimson Straight....All those maps where cover is choking the scenery up and you can survive LRMs by accident.
Should the match maker also take into account other weapon and map combos? how about SRM boats on Mining collective or solaris city? Isn't this just a bit OP to have a mech round a corner at point blank range and unload SRMS at way to close a range for AMS to effect them? How about dual heavy gauss boating on tight terrained maps? isn't that unfair?

Unless you are NARCed if you can't slip an LRM lock on Polar Highlands the least of your problems is countering LRMs.You have some fundamental lacking in basic counter play skills that no amount of LRM nerfing will solve.

And remember for every LRM boat that dumps a 6X multiplier on getting Polar Highlands they have just played a half dozen games on some thing like HPG where as I said already you can accidently evade LRMs.


I consistantly see solutions that essentially boil down to having PGI remove the problem over learning to over come a problem.

Is there a point when people get sick of begging for handouts?

[Y E O N N E]

Shadowomega1, on 22 July 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Where Ghost Heat keeps a build like he described from MW4 being prevented from two shooting in MWO.

Still not sure what you are getting at. That MWO hasn't fixed the two-shot "problem?"

Quote

Ghost Heat is currently a band aid on a broken leg, with many holes in it. Top this off with Heat cap that allows for more than 30 heat (Heat cap about 100 (Heat cap of my SNV-C)) coupled with many high punch, high range weapons being able to fire every 4 seconds leads to a poke meta.

Went into game to get this data.

20/10 on DHS on my SNV-C

DHS out of engine add 1.5 heat cap, I hear the 10 in engine have 2.0 heat cap.

On top of that I have 4/5 Heat Capacity Nodes in the skill tree which is 3% each node.

Firing 1 ERLL generates 10% heat, Firing 2 generate 20% heat, Firing 3 ERLL generates 40% heat, Firing 4 Generates 60% heat.

If I fire all 4 ERLL and the 2 HLL it is a shut down but no internal Damage taken, and I start up right away.

I question why you go for this example; It's 80 damage for a shut-down when I can get 78 for no shut down just by using 2 HLL + 6ERML and all I sacrifice is 50 meters on the base range.

That said, not really seeing a problem. These builds run so hot, shut-down or not, that they are not really useful except when the enemy are morons. The gaps between shots are large enough that they can be easily pushed if their screen isn't good and, even if it is, they are behind cover too often. They typically end up not firing all of their weapons every shot, thus wasting potential and weakening the repeatability of the smaller salvos.

[catsonmeth]

Damage is fine. It's not much of an indicator of player skill. 800 splash damage might not be worth 200 PPFLD placed where it needs to be. When there are 24 real people playing a game, there are too many variables to perform consistently every time, especially if you're running assaults or lights, because those are meant to meant to be high risk/reward.

The real problem is that dmg is the main contributer to match score and cbill earnings, so you can do really well without being rewarded.

NASCAR is just the natural tactic, and it's usually not bad. Think of it like this: It always works for one team, cause both teams have to be doing it. You have to talk to your team if you want to prevent it.

PIRs really aren't that much of a problem. They're slow for their weight, made of glass, and fill a role that's already risky. MWO isn't CoD, it's all about measures and countermeasures. Add more back armor, play something with arms, or communicate with your team so you don't get stuck without light support. Any light or medium can kill a PIR.

LRMs are okay. It takes a loooong time to peel off armor because damage is spread over the whole mech. Sure, lrm supernovas are annoyingly powerful, but they're hot garbage once anyone gets line-of-sight on it, and nothing but food for any fast brawler. Spot one, and it doesn't last long. I don't have a problem with Polar either. It seems like the best brawls happen there, and you can easily break line of sight.

Most of these problems happen because the team doesn't communicate. It also seems like you expect assaults to be something they aren't.

[Vonbach]

catsonmeth, on 22 July 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

PIRs really aren't that much of a problem.

Only if your not being shot at by them.The things are cancer.

[Dragonporn]

catsonmeth, on 22 July 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

PIRs really aren't that much of a problem. They're slow for their weight, made of glass, and fill a role that's already risky. MWO isn't CoD, it's all about measures and countermeasures. Add more back armor, play something with arms, or communicate with your team so you don't get stuck without light support. Any light or medium can kill a PIR.

They aren't really that slow, speed is fine, but they have pretty amazing profile, so it contributes to overall survivability, if pilot doesn't make stupid mistakes. Measures and countermeasures is valid argument, but the problem is, 99% of our mechs can't really pull enough armor to the back side to prevent PIRs instantly critting out weapons or other important equipment, like DHS, because of sick front loaded alphas this game has right now. That means if we pull more armor to the back solely for PIRs sake, we will be dying much-much faster from other (90%) of combat situations. PIR itself isn't a problem, the real problem is number of MGs it can boat with insane crit chance. Another thing is that very few other Lights have enough firepower to effectively 1v1 with PIR, because it chews up legs in moments, which is very easy to do against Lights in general.

[Dollar Bill]

Wow, I thought this would be in K-town by now.

[Bud Crue]

Dollar Bill, on 22 July 2018 - 05:23 PM, said:

Wow, I thought this would be in K-town by now.

I can go back and answer like I usually do (swearing, barely controlled rage/disdain for PGI, snark toward the issues being raised, sarcasm directed to the person raising them, etc.) and we can get there in short order if you'd like.

But I'm trying Ringo.
I'm trying real hard.

[catsonmeth]

Vonbach, on 22 July 2018 - 04:34 PM, said:

Only if your not being shot at by them.The things are cancer.

Until someone makes an angry face at them and they explode.

[Shadowomega1]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 July 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

Still not sure what you are getting at. That MWO hasn't fixed the two-shot "problem?"



I question why you go for this example; It's 80 damage for a shut-down when I can get 78 for no shut down just by using 2 HLL + 6ERML and all I sacrifice is 50 meters on the base range.

That said, not really seeing a problem. These builds run so hot, shut-down or not, that they are not really useful except when the enemy are morons. The gaps between shots are large enough that they can be easily pushed if their screen isn't good and, even if it is, they are behind cover too often. They typically end up not firing all of their weapons every shot, thus wasting potential and weakening the repeatability of the smaller salvos.

I used it to point out heat potential as it is the only mech I have that reaches that 100 point heat cap. As 4 cERLL ghost heat value is 63.94 points of heat, and the mech hits 60% heat cap. If I wait half a second and start with the 2HLL I can fire 2 ERLL, and then another .5 second I can fire another 2 ERLL and have all weapons firing 0 ghost heat, for a total of 72 heat and hit 70% heat cap. If I wait 2 to 3 seconds after my HLL cycle I can repeat without shut down, to do this a third time I will have to pop a cool shot, or just wait additional 2 to 3 seconds.

Had this been MW3/4 the 2 HLL would have been enough to red line the mech.

As for the point of fixing the 2 shoot problem, most of these builds that can two shoot in MWO wouldn't work in MW3/4 as they would pop after firing from heat, and any two shoot build in MW4 wouldn't do a two shoot here due to double armor, and double internals.

[catsonmeth]

Dragonporn, on 22 July 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

They aren't really that slow, speed is fine, but they have pretty amazing profile, so it contributes to overall survivability, if pilot doesn't make stupid mistakes. Measures and countermeasures is valid argument, but the problem is, 99% of our mechs can't really pull enough armor to the back side to prevent PIRs instantly critting out weapons or other important equipment, like DHS, because of sick front loaded alphas this game has right now. That means if we pull more armor to the back solely for PIRs sake, we will be dying much-much faster from other (90%) of combat situations. PIR itself isn't a problem, the real problem is number of MGs it can boat with insane crit chance. Another thing is that very few other Lights have enough firepower to effectively 1v1 with PIR, because it chews up legs in moments, which is very easy to do against Lights in general.

It's bigger, squishier, more specialized, and slower than a locust. 12cmgs only do 3 more DPS than 6splas (afaik), and that's spread over the whole duration rather than one second of every few. Heat generally isn't that big of an issue, so the only real advantage a PIR has over a LCT-1E is the ability to crit, which, yes, is pretty massive, but not so overpowered as to be broken considering the drawbacks relative to the 1E.

I'd definitely bet against a PIR in most light v light situations.

[Anjian]

MrMadguy, on 21 July 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

So, you just agree with me, that this game needs "No Lights, No LRMs" mode?

What I don't agree with you - is map problem. "No NASCAR" maps - are usually maps with open center, that promote another terrible gameplay - boring snipefests.

Not at all.

Many of the maps I have seen on other games, that have open centers have brawling flanks, where there is plenty of cover. The result is that long rangers and snipers take to cover the center while brawlers hit the flanks, preferably, both, and the other team will likewise do the same. The result is you got close in fighting along the sides, and the winner of the brawls will sweep out into the rear of the enemy position to take out the long range units. If the winning team sees that happening, the center units will start moving across the center.

Due to the dense cover along the flanks, you can't move fast through it anyway, and with opposing team, results in close quarters corridor fighting.

Quote

NASCAR problem isn't caused by maps themselves. It's caused by violation of simple rule - "Follow Assaults - not Lights". Lights try to backstab enemies, play suicide squirrels, etc., and some noobish players follow them, instead of supporting their main forces - Assaults and Heavies. Another cause of NASCAR tactics - balance problems. Offence >> Defence in this game in most cases, that is simply wrong. I.e. team, that just pushes hard - usually wins. That's why teams usually try to perform deathball push, that causes NASCAR effect very often on certain maps. Solution - to bring offensive abilities in line with defensive ones.[/

This seems to be the only game where I have seen this happen. I don't know if this has to do because the game is North American, the subtle, unconcious influence of American sports in the game. Many of the wargames I see in the market are Russian, and for them, chess is the thing. They are influenced by chess in the design of the map and in the context how units are going to move across it.