77 replies to this topic

[SPNKRGrenth]

I saw no 3.5 second option, so I voted no.

5 damage, 4.75 heat, 3.5 cooldown. Maybe 4.5 heat. That gets my yes.

Edit: Changed my vote to yes for 3 second cooldown, because ANY buff for a bottom tier weapon is much better than none.

Edited by SPNKRGrenth, 26 July 2018 - 08:23 PM.

[LordNothing]

Alex Morgaine, on 24 July 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Spooky heat limit increase would be nice...

problem with this is you start to obsolete other ppcs. if you can outperform an hppc with less tonnage and more range or you can do the same work as a pair of standard ppcs for 2 tons less, then why would you use those options? going the dps route gives the lppcs its own niche witout encroaching on the others.

[Khobai]

2.5 cooldown will never happen because it makes regular PPCs even more obsolete.

Why would anyone ever use a regular PPC with 4.0 cooldown when they could just use two Light PPCs with 2.5 cooldown?

Rather than lowering the cooldown, LPPC makes far more sense at 6 damage; since the whole purpose of PPCs is to do pinpoint damage, not to be DPS weapons. If you want energy DPS thats the role of pulse lasers.

Quote

problem with this is you start to obsolete other ppcs

All the 10 PPFLD damage PPCs, including the CERPPC, should be ghost heated at x3 anyway, not x2.

Only the HPPC should be x2.

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2018 - 12:49 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 26 July 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

2.5 cooldown will never happen because it makes regular PPCs even more obsolete.

Why would anyone ever use a regular PPC with 4.0 cooldown when they could just use two Light PPCs with 2.5 cooldown?

That's why PPCs should also get a cooldown buff. That said, the reason you use a PPC is because 2 PPC has a higher alpha than 3 LPPCs. That's the same reason you use HPPCs over regular PPCs.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2018 - 12:52 PM, said:

That's why PPCs should also get a cooldown buff. That said, the reason you use a PPC is because 2 PPC has a higher alpha than 3 LPPCs. That's the same reason you use HPPCs over regular PPCs.

PPCs should not get a cooldown buff. They are supposed to be slow firing PPFLD weapons.

Regular PPCs need lower heat IMO. And x3 ghost heat limit. And replacement of the dumb damage deadzone with linear damage reduction instead.

If you want fast firing energy weapons, thats what pulse lasers are for. And x2 LPPCs should not do significantly more DPS than a large pulse laser. That is simply not balanced. period. 2.5s cooldown on LPPC is absurd.

Again the best way to fix LPPCs is to make them better at what PPCs are supposed to do: PPFLD. Raise the damage to 6.


I also think all PPCs should get a skill tree unlock that gives them HUD disruption. Making them scramble a mech's HUDs/sensors would give them some additional utility beyond lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2018 - 01:03 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 26 July 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

PPCs should not get a cooldown buff. They are supposed to be slow firing PPFLD weapons.

Regular PPCs need lower heat IMO. And x3 ghost heat limit. And replacement of the dumb damage deadzone with linear damage reduction instead.

More velocity would be nice...

Khobai, on 26 July 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

Again the best way to fix LPPCs is to make them better at what PPCs are supposed to do: PPFLD. Raise the damage to 6.

Keep in mind that it's not just about balancing PPCs against other weapon families, it's also about balancing PPCs against other PPCs. Adding too much upfront damage to the LPPC is really going to start infringing on the standard PPC. Compare 14 tons for 20 damage versus 9 tons for 18 damage.

For the LPL comparison, the main distinguishing factor will be heat. The large wub is going to be able to sustain that DPS a lot longer than the LPPC, which would probably stay at around 5 heat per shot. Being hitscan is also nice, as is not having any minimum range (even linear dropoff is still much worse than not having a min range in the first place).

[Khobai]

Right but remember theres the SNPPC too

SNPPC is the only PPC that should even begin to compete with the LPL inside brawling range.

LPPCs shouldnt even come close.

FupDup, on 26 July 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

More velocity would be nice...

I would be fine with that.

FupDup, on 26 July 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

Adding too much upfront damage to the LPPC is really going to start infringing on the standard PPC. Compare 14 tons for 20 damage versus 9 tons for 18 damage.

I think 6 damage is fine. They would still be ghost heated at x4 at most. So they wouldnt be capable of the same size alphas as PPCs or HPPCs.

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2018 - 01:18 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 26 July 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

Right but remember theres the SNPPC too

SNPPC is the only PPC that should even begin to compete with the LPL.

LPPCs shouldnt even come close.

The Snubber relative to other Peepers should have the most generous damage per heat ratio, no min range of any kind, as well as having a bit faster cooldown than most of them (LPPC reloading the fastest makes sense for a weapon with low damage per hardpoint).

Relative to the LPL it's PPFLD for sword-and-board goodness.

For the record I don't support the specific 2.5 second buff, as I said on page 2 I think that's going too far. But somewhere at or a little above 3.0 seconds would be fine.

Edited by FupDup, 26 July 2018 - 01:14 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The Snubber relative to other Peepers should have the most generous damage per heat ratio

thats not enough to make anyone use it over LPL

the Snubnose PPC needs to do more than 10 damage to get people to use it compared to a LPL, IMO.

SNPPC should remain a hot weapon, because all PPCs are hot weapons, but it should do higher damage like 10+1+1 damage at least. To firmly set it apart from other weapons in the same range bracket.

The purpose of PPCs is to do energy PPFLD and their traditional weakness is high heat and long cooldown. Getting rid of those weaknesses makes them less like PPCs and more like other weapons.

Thats why I dont like the idea of lowering cooldown or heat on SNPPCs or LPPCs. I would rather see PPFLD go up on both those weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2018 - 01:31 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 26 July 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

thats not enough to make anyone use it over LPL

the Snubnose PPC needs to do more than 10 damage to get people to use it compared to a LPL, IMO.

SNPPC should remain a hot weapon, because all PPCs are hot weapons, but it should do higher damage like 10+1+1 damage at least. To firmly set it apart from other weapons in the same range bracket.

The purpose of PPCs is to do energy PPFLD and their traditional weakness is high heat and long cooldown. Getting rid of those weaknesses makes them less like PPCs.

When I'm talking about the SNPPC's DPH ratio I'd still have it be less efficient heat-wise than the LPL. It'll still be kinda hot, just "less hot" than other PPC types. Same goes for cooldown (set it around 3.5 or so, assuming the regular and ER stay at 4.0).

The only real issue with setting the SNPPC apart from the LPL is that the latter's beam duration is still short enough that it basically functions as "poor man's PPFLD." I'd bump its duration to be a bit longer and compensate it with a little bit lower heat and/or a little bit faster cooldown. Alternatively maybe let it reach out a few extra meters but I'm not as sure of that one.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LPL = Short-mid range DPS
LPPC = Mid-long range DPS (for smaller mechs)
PPC = Mid-long range middle-of-the-road (has more upfront damage than LPPC but lower overall DPS)
HPPC = Mid-long range PPFLD
SNPPC = Short range PPFLD

Part of the problem is that LPLs aren't as DPS oriented as they should be. For whatever reason PGI wants to keep them doing the same burst damage as standard lasers but a little better DPS rather than making them more like laser AC5s.

LPPC is for lighter mechs to have some PPFLD that can pump out damage, with ghost heat and fast cooldowns keeping them from being abused by larger mechs.

PPCs are for mechs that can't mount 2 HPPCs due to tonnage, but gives them increased DPS in exchange since they won't hit as hard.

HPPCs are the definitive PPFLD PPC, and SNPPCs are essentially the short range version.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

LPL = Short-mid range DPS
LPPC = Mid-long range DPS (for smaller mechs)
PPC = Mid-long range middle-of-the-road (has more upfront damage than LPPC but lower overall DPS)
HPPC = Mid-long range PPFLD
SNPPC = Short range PPFLD

Part of the problem is that LPLs aren't as DPS oriented as they should be. For whatever reason PGI wants to keep them doing the same burst damage as standard lasers but a little better DPS rather than making them more like laser AC5s.

LPPC is for lighter mechs to have some PPFLD that can pump out damage, with ghost heat and fast cooldowns keeping them from being abused by larger mechs.

PPCs are for mechs that can't mount 2 HPPCs due to tonnage, but gives them increased DPS in exchange since they won't hit as hard.

HPPCs are the definitive PPFLD PPC, and SNPPCs are essentially the short range version.

You forgot ERPPCs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 26 July 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

You forgot ERPPCs.

Meh, I figured that was a bit more self-explanatory, I only put HPPCs on there for a reference point.

[Khobai]

This is how Id like to see PPCs balanced more or less:

SNPPC = 10+1+1 damage, 9 heat, 4 cooldown, 360m/720m range, 1200m/s velocity, x3 ghost heat
LPPC = 6 damage, 5.5 heat, 3.5 cooldown, 540m/1080m range, 90m linear dropoff, 1500m/s velocity, x4 ghost heat
PPC = 10 damage, 9 heat, 4 cooldown, 540m/1080m range, 90m linear dropoff, 1500m/s velocity, x3 ghost heat
HPPC = 15 damage, 13 heat, 4.5 cooldown, 540m/1080m range, 90m linear dropoff, 1500m/s velocity, x2 ghost heat
ERPPC = 10 damage, 13 heat, 4 cooldown, 720m/1440m range, 1800m/s velocity, x3 ghost heat


And id like to see PPCs get a skill unlock that gives them HUD disruption (would scramble the HUD and turn off sensors/ecm/etc...) With the heavier PPCs having better disruption capability (either higher chance of proccing or if its auto-proc then longer duration). And add an EMP hardened skill as well so theres a way to counter PPC disruption (probably roll it into one of the existing crappy skills to make it more appealing).

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2018 - 02:01 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 26 July 2018 - 01:53 PM, said:

PPC = 10 damage, 9 heat, 4 cooldown, 540m/1080m range, 90m linear drooff, 1500m/s velocity, x3 ghost heat
HPPC = 15 damage, 13 heat, 4.5 cooldown, 540m/1080m range, 90m linear dropoff, 1500m/s velocity, x2 ghost heat

This makes no sense, you have set it up to they compete for the exact same role and there is no agency in choosing one or the other. In this case HPPCs are the clear winner because having a slightly shorter cooldown is not worth the increased tonnage and heat given that heat is still going to limit your sustained DPS anyway.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2018 - 01:56 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

In this case HPPCs are the clear winner because having a slightly shorter cooldown is not worth the increased tonnage and heat given that heat is still going to limit your sustained DPS anyway.

That is simply false.

x2 HPPCs would be worse than x3 SNPPC at short range
x2 HPPC would be worse than x2-x3 CERPPC at long range
The mechs that gravitate towards LPPC do so because they lack the tonnage to equip HPPC in the first place.

So the only PPC that somewhat lacks a role is the regular PPC.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 26 July 2018 - 02:10 PM, said:

So the only PPC that somewhat lacks a role is the regular PPC.

That was my point, there is a reason I ONLY quoted the HPPC/PPC stats.....

I also don't know that I understand why you made the changes you did to the SNPPC. It doesn't need splash nor does it really need more range. It needs to have a better DPH ratio and until that happens it just won't be useful. There is no reason for me to bother with it over iMLs as it stands keeping in mind that the duration of iMLs with the skill tree is on par with what the ultimate brawl weapon's (cSPL before the nerfhammer) duration (roughly 0.75s).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2018 - 02:15 PM.

[Khobai]

what if you gave the regular PPC no min range at all? that might help balance it vs the HPPC then...

that would help the regular PPC function as the jack-of-all trades PPC its supposed to be.

it would have no major strengths but also no major weaknesses.

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2018 - 02:16 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 26 July 2018 - 02:14 PM, said:

what if you gave the regular PPC no min range at all? that might help balance it vs the HPPC then...

If we are being honest, min range needs to go away from every weapon period because it is an unfun and dumb mechanic. That said it doesn't matter whether it would or not. You either run to the HPPC or PPCs on mechs, you would never alternate between the two. If the no min range was good enough to warrant on one PPC boat, it's gonna be good enough to warrant on the rest.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

min range needs to go away from every weapon period because it is an unfun and dumb mechanic.

I think linear dropoff is fine

its having zero damage deadzones thats not fun.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

You either run to the HPPC or PPCs on mechs, you would never alternate between the two. If the no min range was good enough to warrant on one PPC boat, it's gonna be good enough to warrant on the rest.

Well thats also why I suggested adding a disruption skill unlock for PPCs to give them a non-quantifiable ability.

It hard to truly differentiate 5 similar-type weapons purely by using stats. Weapons should not just be characterized by having different stats IMO. One of the best ways to differentiate weapons is by giving them special abilities.

Adding disruption to PPCs not only helps differentiate them more from other energy weapons but it can also be used to help differentiate PPCs from eachother (by giving heavy PPCs the strongest disruption for example)

Edited by Khobai, 26 July 2018 - 02:27 PM.