157 replies to this topic

[Prototelis]

I personally think energy draw was dumb and that adding another convoluted game mechanic on top of a group of barely functioning or unexplained game mechanics was a waste of time.

Want to curb high alpha? Make heat penalties real, lower overall heat cap on clan mechs, take a tiny bit of damage away from clans, and roll armor and structure buffs into IS basetech.

Edited by Prototelis, 26 July 2018 - 10:18 AM.

[FupDup]

Savage Wolf, on 26 July 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

You might not like it, hell by looking at the forums and how often a solution just like Energy Draw is suggested by people who supposedly doesn't like it, chances are you don't even know what it is, but unlike this "solution" it actually solves the alpha problem.

The issue with Ghost Heat Mk. 2 (Power/Energy Draw) is that while it does successfully close all the loopholes, it actually reinforces boating very strongly because you've only got a limited cap to work with. Mixing in a bunch of other different gun types doesn't help you if you can only use one group at a time.

It didn't help that it heavily punished spread weapons since spread guns tend to have higher total alpha strike damage at the cost of being spread. PGI tried to recognize this by giving them slightly lower power values but they didn't go nearly far enough.

With only about 30 damage to work with, PPFLD and dakka is gonna reign supreme because it already has a low alpha strike but it can fire at a faster rate and for lower heat than other options.

[Prototelis]

Honestly, the problem with Power draw was going to be that it made the system even easier to game than it is now. It was only going to lead to more minmaxing and only make the game less fun.

[Savage Wolf]

Prototelis, on 26 July 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

This solves nothing.

All it does is create an even bigger set of balance issues and make the game less fun. This is a skill nerf disguised as a balance nerf attempting to target a handful of mechs.

TTK in this game is fine and they need to stop ******* with things just because most of the playerbase refuses to learn better habits.

What this game needs is a working matchmaker that gates the crybabies into their own little robut safespace. That way the rest of us can enjoy what actually makes this game fun; Risk vs Reward.

Like for real, seems like the majority of the playerbase wants to nerf anything remotely dangerous (especially if it requires skill to use), and its just dumbing down the gameplay. They're making the game for you, it's called MW5, and its going to literally be one giant safespace for mech-dads, grogs, and lorewarriors.

No, you just want MWO to play like all the other twitch shooters out there and that is fine if you like that kind of gameplay, but usually those games are built around the low TTK with high mobility. Mechs have very low mobility and so are not suited for twitch shooters, so it would make more sense to center the game around high TTK instead and simply make a game that actually offers a different gameplay experience than your standard online shooter.

Skill still matters in both types of gameplay, it's just a matter of preference which you like more.

[Savage Wolf]

Prototelis, on 26 July 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

I personally think energy draw was dumb and that adding another convoluted game mechanic on top of a group of barely functioning or unexplained game mechanics was a waste of time.

Want to curb high alpha? Make heat penalties real, lower overall heat cap on clan mechs, take a tiny bit of damage away from clans, and roll armor and structure buffs into IS basetech.

See, you don't even know what energy draw does. It's not another layer, because it replaces all those unexplained game mechanics with only one game mechanic which is much easier to represent ui wise and explain. What would be the point of replacing Ghost Heat as a solution if you didn't remove it?

[Prototelis]

Really? Cause the thing I tested only triggered more heat.

That and they messed around with weapon values before actually making the system work and be intuitive.

But it just goes back to the root problem of there not really being a penalty for running the threshold.

Edited by Prototelis, 26 July 2018 - 06:41 PM.

[KoalaBrownie]

If you want to fix Alpha problem, drop weapon heat across the board and add ghost heat for all weapons fired beyond the first. Force players to fire weapons in groups of 2-4 as cumulative weapons firings result in higher penalties.

[Savage Wolf]

Prototelis, on 26 July 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

Really? Cause the thing I tested only triggered more heat.

That and they dicked around with weapon values before actually making the system work and be intuitive.

But it just goes back to the root problem of there not really being a penalty for running the threshold.

Yeah, well that is going to be an issue with any solution tried out: PGI has to implement it. Nothing in Energy Draw actually requires changing of weapon stats although it should allow many nerfed systems to become unnerfed like jump jets.

But if you just don't like the heat threshold we have, no then it doesn't fix it. Not that I knew that was really an issue. I know of an alpha problem and that is what it was supposed to fix and it does do so. At the root so it's not easily circumvented like Ghost Heat.

[Savage Wolf]

KoalaBrownie, on 26 July 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

If you want to fix Alpha problem, drop weapon heat across the board and add ghost heat for all weapons fired beyond the first. Force players to fire weapons in groups of 2-4 as cumulative weapons firings result in higher penalties.

If all weapons produce less heat, then why take anything but lasers? And then people would just take few but bigger weapons, making mechs with many hardpoints pointless.
Does this also count machine guns?

[KoalaBrownie]

Savage Wolf, on 26 July 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

If all weapons produce less heat, then why take anything but lasers? And then people would just take few but bigger weapons, making mechs with many hardpoints pointless.
Does this also count machine guns?

Ghost heat would vary by the weapon as would the heat reduction. AC/20 may make more ghost heat than a laser for example. If you add ghost heat with no reduction in how much heat a weapon generates then the game might suffer. Idea would be to reduced weapon heat to allow for small volleys of multiple weapons but that penalizes big volleys of many weapons.

For MGs, I don't know how they current work but I would add a bar that fills up like RACs and the higher the bar, the more heat the MG generates. Starting from 0 and going up to a few points per weapon which would be compounded by ghost heat over many weapons. So you can fire 12 MGs with a Piranha but if you hold the button down your heat is going to start rising at a geometric rate until you're either forced to stop firing or shutdown.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 26 July 2018 - 11:02 AM.

[Novakaine]

Turning this game into a twitch shooter to support E-Spurts.
Is one of the main reason why so many have simply said buh bye.
And why my wallet is closed.
Oh I will still take the freebies, but not a single C-Bill more.
This game has about a much flavor as used coolant flush now.
I'm surprised that we even have the names of factions anymore.
Disclaimer: Don't drink coolant flush it's bad for you just don't do it.
Signed Your Mech-Daddy

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Novakaine, on 26 July 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

Turning this game into a twitch shooter to support E-Spurts.

Savage Wolf, on 26 July 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

No, you just want MWO to play like all the other twitch shooters out there

Have either of you even played twitch shooters? Seriously, comments like this make me wonder what the hell your level of comparison even is. This game is nowhere near Overwatch, Siege, or CSGO levels of twitch.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2018 - 11:09 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

KoalaBrownie, on 26 July 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

Ghost heat would vary by the weapon as would the heat reduction. AC/20 may make more ghost heat than a laser for example. If you add ghost heat with no reduction in how much heat a weapon generates then the game might suffer. Idea would be to reduced weapon heat to allow for small volleys of multiple weapons but that penalizes big volleys of many weapons.

For MGs, I don't know how they current work but I would add a bar that fills up like RACs and the higher the bar, the more heat the MG generates. Starting from 0 and going up to a few points per weapon which would be compounded by ghost heat over many weapons.

That would still make it more beneficial to use one big weapon instead of two small ones. And what about if I mix weapons? Say Gauss and Medium Laser?

[Savage Wolf]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:

Have either of you even played twitch shooters? Seriously, comments like this make me wonder what the hell your level of comparison even is. This game is nowhere near Overwatch, Siege, or CS levels of twitch.

Well there was times when it got closer, before Ghost Heat, but no it's not the same level. But still higher than the mobility supports. So rather than make it more twitchy as some prefer, we just want to make it less. Because yeah, if we wanted a twitch shooter, we would play one of those games.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Savage Wolf, on 26 July 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

Well there was times when it got closer, before Ghost Heat, but no it's not the same level.

If it's not the same level, then stop being hyperbolic. Even before ghost heat this game was NOT like the twitch shooters like the ones I listed above. I don't think a single person arguing against you is saying they want it to be like other twitch shooters, that's the leap YOU are making.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 July 2018 - 11:25 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

If it's not the same level, then stop being hyperbolic. Even before ghost heat this game was NOT like the twitch shooters like the ones I listed above. I don't think a single person arguing against you is saying they want it to be like other twitch shooters, that's the leap YOU are making.

I wasn't. I literally said it wasn't as bad.

And yeah they do, that is literally what they tell us. There was even an entire thread recently about a guy who thought that MWOs problem was high TTK and he used twitch shooters as examples. I'm not making leaps here, people litterally say they have no problem with high alphas or even want higher ones.

[HammerMaster]

Barking up this tree again.
Absolutely gawd damn right. Remove it.
Community cry and anueryism. Good. Quit. I don't need you.
Beta had bloom reticule.
It will never return sadly.

[Novakaine]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 July 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:

Have either of you even played twitch shooters? Seriously, comments like this make me wonder what the hell your level of comparison even is. This game is nowhere near Overwatch, Siege, or CSGO levels of twitch.

And your's is so blatantly obvious if you can't figure out MWO has steadfastly moved in that direction.
Unless you were just trying to blatantly insulting towards me.

[KoalaBrownie]

Savage Wolf, on 26 July 2018 - 11:06 AM, said:

That would still make it more beneficial to use one big weapon instead of two small ones. And what about if I mix weapons? Say Gauss and Medium Laser?

Why shouldn't it be more beneficial to use one big weapon? If I invest 16 tons into an AC/20 with ammo and another guy invests 4 tons into MLs shouldn't I have a notable advantage for using 400% more tonnage?

If you mix weapons ghost heat would apply as normal. Maybe different weapon types would incur different amounts of ghost heat. Firing 2 AC/20s woudl result in more ghost heat (%-wise) than 2 MLs, similarly firing 1 AC/20 and 2 ML would create a higher percentage of ghost heat than 3 ML

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 26 July 2018 - 12:08 PM.

[Savage Wolf]

KoalaBrownie, on 26 July 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

Why shouldn't it be more beneficial to use one big weapon? If I invest 16 tons into an AC/20 with ammo and another guy invests 4 tons into MLs shouldn't I have a notable advantage for using 400% more tonnage?

Because as I mentioned earlier, this would drastically reduce the worth of hardpoints. The Nova for example would never use it's 12 energy hardpoints.

KoalaBrownie, on 26 July 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

...similarly firing 1 AC/20 and 2 ML would incur more ghost heat than 3 ML

How much more?