57 replies to this topic

[eminus]

looks like the 2M cbills + Warhorn is not enough to entice players to test the PTU.

even with only 4v4 the matchmaking is very long which I think because there are not enough testers

[Daggett]

Not saying that you are wrong but looking at the time you wrote this i would not expect too much activity.
Maybe you have more success during either american or european prime time?

[eminus]

I just found a faster way..


die first...then queue again

[Bud Crue]

There is simply no point to participating in this PTS, since the conclusions are foregone. Paul wants increased TTK Chris wants the reduction or elimination of quirks. They've been saying it for a year and this PTS will give them the "data" they need to "prove" that they were right in going this direction, and moreover that the "player feed back demands" that they do this.

Just accept it and move on. The details of the nerfs are irrelevant.

Also, folks recognize that the PTS is not only pointless from a PGI already stated what the broader outcomes will be, but also the reality that the data is in fact not relevant to the actual game; so again: why bother?

Data obtained in the artifice of a 4v4 PTS is simply not relevant to a 12 v 12 team game setting. Remember when folks complained about Solaris division balance and their fears that PGI would be nerfing mechs based on their Solaris performace? In that case, Chris addressed their concerns by saying 12v12 telemetry is irrelevant for drawing conclusions about a 1v1/2v2 setting. Yet here we are using telemetry from a 4v4 setting to draw conclusions about a 12v12 setting. Gimmie a break.

[Ghogiel]

PTS is pointless unless you want on a personal level to abstractly see how the changes will affect the meta, there is no testing and feedback process where you playing on it matters at all to the changes.
Changes which most already know how it'll affect the meta. Basically not much. Since the changes are about clan laser nerfs which are on the periphery of current balance in the game that dakka and NSR will continue to be the dominant meta at all levels and modes of play. All this over a MCII DS which is no better than several other assaults any way.

[Ghogiel]

Bud Crue, on 28 July 2018 - 04:03 AM, said:

Paul wants increased TTK Chris wants the reduction or elimination of quirks.

I just want to point out that TTK goes down with the changes.

Besides the obvious fact that removing armor quirks is directly correlated to ttk, and that clan laser vomit is not the measure that TTK is based on in live, it's the DPS, crit, burst, dakka and brawl weapons which are the benches to measure true ttk in MWO, and as soon as an engagement starts, those are the ones that driving the ttk down. People can start engaing and poke for a really long time before kills start with clan lasers, not so with the dominant meta weaps, which afaik aren't affected by the pts changes.

Both these changes, laser nerfs and armor reduction are counter productive to increased ttk.

Basically PGI needs to either add armor quirks or nerf the actual weaps that are driving the TTK down if they want to address TTK

Edited by Ghogiel, 28 July 2018 - 04:46 AM.

[Ensaine]

The PTS is useless because it's set up to test changes to a 12v12 game using 4v4 to test....

Absolutely useless. Complete waste of time. I hate analogies, but if you have a 12 cylinder engine, and you want to test compression, do you check only 4 of the cylinders, and say that the other 8 must be ok?

That's what we're doing ......

[Bud Crue]

Ghogiel, on 28 July 2018 - 04:43 AM, said:

I just want to point out that TTK goes down with the changes.

Besides the obvious fact that removing armor quirks is directly correlated to ttk, and that clan laser vomit is not the measure that TTK is based on in live, it's the DPS, crit, burst, dakka and brawl weapons which are the benches to measure true ttk in MWO, and as soon as an engagement starts, those are the ones that driving the ttk down. People can start engaing and poke for a really long time before kills start with clan lasers.

Both these changes, laser nerfs and armor reduction are counter productive to increased ttk.

Nerfs to lasers will according to Chris and Paul increase TTK. The quirk changes are also according to them their way of "reducing the barrier to entry of IS mechs". Two different goals. This screwed up PTS.

I don't make their goofy rationales I just repeat them.

[eminus]

I personally think clan LAZORS nerfing is pointless unless you remove coolshots!

[The6thMessenger]

Bud Crue, on 28 July 2018 - 04:03 AM, said:

There is simply no point to participating in this PTS, since the conclusions are foregone. Paul wants increased TTK Chris wants the reduction or elimination of quirks. They've been saying it for a year and this PTS will give them the "data" they need to "prove" that they were right in going this direction, and moreover that the "player feed back demands" that they do this.

Just accept it and move on. The details of the nerfs are irrelevant.

I know right? It's sad how the community tries their best to help, only to have their concerns shat at by PGI.

[Ghogiel]

The6thMessenger, on 28 July 2018 - 05:13 AM, said:

I know right? It's sad how the community tries their best to help, only to have their concerns shat at by PGI.

Well to be fair the community is just as dumb. You have potatoes saying OMG laser vomit needs to be nerfed! when the entire paradigm is wrong. I mean take the most recent laser discussion. someone makes "balance" videos which are pretty terrible ideas which are about a balance issue that doesn't even exist, and they don't even understand the reprocussions of those nerfs to a meta that barely exists. And half the people are like "yeah right on"

At least PGI gets one thing right by ignoring them lol

[The6thMessenger]

Ghogiel, on 28 July 2018 - 05:29 AM, said:

Well to be fair the community is just as dumb. You have potatoes saying OMG laser vomit needs to be nerfed! when the entire paradigm is wrong. I mean take the most recent laser discussion. someone makes "balance" videos which are pretty terrible ideas which are about a balance issue that doesn't even exist, and they don't even understand the reprocussions of those nerfs to a meta that barely exists. And half the people are like "yeah right on"

At least PGI gets one thing right by ignoring them lol

To be fair, considering all of the nerfs such as the linking of Gauss PPC, the srms nerfed to the ground, Clan Lasers are meta because they are powerful, they put a good amount of damage pin-point at a good range unlike others, even unlike Inner Sphere. I agree that clan lasers having that much damage is a problem. I suppose we could just buff the rest of the weapons as well, but lets face it Clan Lasers just have this high alpha problem even when clan vs clan.

[Ghogiel]

The6thMessenger, on 28 July 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

To be fair, considering all of the nerfs such as the linking of Gauss PPC, the srms nerfed to the ground, Clan Lasers are meta because they are powerful, they put a good amount of damage pin-point at a good range unlike others, even unlike Inner Sphere. I agree that clan lasers having that much damage is a problem. I suppose we could just buff the rest of the weapons as well, but lets face it Clan Lasers just have this high alpha problem even when clan vs clan.

If the argument is clan lasers are powerful therefore they need to be nerfed is all there is, while looking at it in a vacuum, we should be nerfing dakka asap because it is in fact more powerful.

Edited by Ghogiel, 28 July 2018 - 05:57 AM.

[Novakaine]

The only serious way to fix this at least in FP is 10 vs 12.
Lore wise Clan weapons are more powerful and the mechs were better.
But the IS had the numbers to throw at them.
QP is another issue all together.
Although I am of the opinion that in QP you take your chances anyway.
All this weapon balance stuff is just nonsense.
Here it's like try to balance a tidal wave.
The water/players will always find away around it.

[Jackal Noble]

You guys have answered your own questions.
Do you know how hard it was at certain times last night to get into a 4v4? There were some moments where I’d wait ~ 8+ mins but for the most part wait times were ok and sometimes back to back( that was more because of fervent testers than numbers tho) A 12 v12 testing setting is out of the question.

It’s not entirely useless as you claim, as it gives a chance for some of the more experienced players participating to see the changes and if it would actually work and be feasible, which is kind of the point. It allows you to test and throw together build combos you never would atempt before to find a different synergy.

Is it ideal? No, but it is something at least,and something is better than nothing. I mean they could just implement a bunch of crazy game breaking changes without even doing the PTS. I’m sure that would go over well.
Personally, I wish they could find a way to meld the test server with the live and make the transition from one over to the other more seamless; that would maybe likely increase participation.

It’s Saturday, and I’m pretty sure more people will be on than yesterday. Get on the test, try it out and try your best to give non biased feedback on the feedback forum. It will more likely get read than this thread.
Is it going to fix everything? No definitely not, but then again neither is beating ones head against the wall lol.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 28 July 2018 - 06:29 AM.

[AEgg]

The PTS isn't entirely useless. 4v4 on normal sized maps without weight limits is fun, and it's not something we can play anywhere else.

[Ghogiel]

Jackal Noble, on 28 July 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

It’s not entirely useless as you claim, as it gives a chance for some of the more experienced players participating to see the changes and if it would actually work and be feasible, which is kind of the point. It allows you to test and throw together build combos you never would atempt before to find a different synergy.

You mean just play more of the strongest, most popular, and most dominant builds that are already dictating most engagements in every mode at every level of play and play even less laser vomit then now. There isn't really anything to work out in terms of builds, they player base will just even more dakka, lurms and NSR then they do now.

[Jackal Noble]

Ghogiel, on 28 July 2018 - 06:39 AM, said:

You mean just play more of the strongest, most popular, and most dominant builds that are already dictating most engagements in every mode at every level of play and play even less laser vomit then now.

No, I mean experiment and see what works and what doesn't.
Kind of the whole point of the PTS.

I mean test the lights, test the mediums, test the heavies etc. Of course test big dominant mechs.
Ultimately if you are going in to PTS "to win" you are doing it wrong. There is no MM per say and if I drop in a light, I could very well be going up against 4 assaults with my team (That's because of the population and there is nothing that can be done about that in this setting). That's fine and dandy, as I'm just testing out my light mech and there happens to be like 4 other guys trying to shoot me. Of course I could drop in Gaussclops and Annis all day and just walk over the other 4 man, but what is the point, there is none. And you do see that, you see guys repeatedly drop in mechs like that and they are just obstacles to overcome. I'm just there to try out the changes.

Ghogiel, on 28 July 2018 - 06:39 AM, said:

There isn't really anything to work out in terms of builds, they player base will just even more dakka, lurms and NSR then they do now.

I'm sure you see that to some level because some of the player base is exploring other options in anticipation of potential changes.

Edited by Jackal Noble, 28 July 2018 - 07:14 AM.

[Spheroid]

Ghogiel, on 28 July 2018 - 04:17 AM, said:

dakka and NSR will continue to be the dominant meta at all levels and modes of play.

I can't support this statement. High alpha laser drills are very common in faction. All the Friday seal clubbers were grouped up in large premades and they were not using dakka except maybe wave one Mad Cat Mk IIs.

Their meta is not dakka. Whom are you dropping with an at what time?

Edited by Spheroid, 28 July 2018 - 10:47 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Spheroid, on 28 July 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

I can't support this statement. High alpha laser drills are very common in faction. All the Friday night sharks were grouped up in large premades and they were not using dakka except maybe wave one Mad Cat Mk IIs.

Their meta is not dakka. Whom are you dropping with an at what time?

I drop with those EVIL BCMC super groups if I do FP.

I drop pug NA and EU prime times.

comp currently with JGx