53 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

id rather just see energy draw implemented

ghost heat works fine for preventing boating of weapons of the same type. its just that ghost heat has too many exploitable loopholes when it comes to weapon combinations.

energy draw is the next logical progression of ghost heat into a system without exploits.

[SilentScreamer]

SilentScreamer, on 02 August 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

I personally think MWO would be worse off if CoF is implemented; here is why:

After long-range direct fire is ruined by CoF mechanics, pilots will switch from PPCs, Large Lasers and Autocannons to guided LRMs. LRMaggedon part 2.

I also think brawlers are just fine; yes it sucks to play Polar Highlands boating SRMs, but no worse than having your team crawl into the HPG basement when you are boating LRMs. If you min/max, you will be at a disadvantage at some maps.

Mystere, on 02 August 2018 - 03:04 PM, said:

And which is why a deterministic convergence-based solution is superior to CoF.

I'm not sure what "deterministic" applies to. Simply removing all convergence for torso weapons but still having it apply to arm-based weapons as currently implemented on the live servers might be enough? No convergence isn't an option with UAVs hovering overhead; it is needed to shoot them down with direct fire weapons.

[Khobai]

SilentScreamer, on 02 August 2018 - 05:06 PM, said:

I'm not sure what "deterministic" applies to. Simply removing all convergence for torso weapons but still having it apply to arm-based weapons as currently implemented on the live servers might be enough? No convergence isn't an option with UAVs hovering overhead; it is needed to shoot them down with direct fire weapons.

so basically mechs with all their weapons in the arms will be the only mechs people use.

that actually screws over IS mechs big time too since their weapons take up more crits and they cant fit as many weapons in their arms as clan mechs can.

doesnt seem like thats thought out too well

energy draw largely accomplishes the same goal without making 95% of mechs obsolete.

Edited by Khobai, 02 August 2018 - 05:27 PM.

[SilentScreamer]

Khobai, on 02 August 2018 - 05:22 PM, said:

so basically mechs with all their weapons in the arms will be the only mechs people use.

that actually screws over IS mechs big time too since their weapons take up more crits and they cant fit as many weapons in their arms as clan mechs can.

doesnt seem like thats thought out too well

energy draw largely accomplishes the same goal without making 95% of mechs obsolete.

I'm not sure you are thinking through either Khobai, you probably already fire most weapons without convergence, you just do not realize it. Marauder 3R is a good mech, mine carries AC5s in the right torso. Most of my shots are at distant moving targets. I have to lead those targets, which means my target cursor is on the horizon, not my opponent's mech. Currently convergence distance only works properly for whatever your cursor is on. Thus the impact of zero convergence torso weapons would only be significant when firing at stationary potatos point-blank range.

Besides, I am a lore fan so seeing all those Warhammer pilots move PPC/lasers back into the mech's arms over the torso location most put them in is my happy place. For mechs that boat LB ACs or SRMs it would hardly make a difference. The mechs most affected would be those boating massive amounts of lasers in the torsos.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 03 August 2018 - 07:47 AM.

[Akillius]

As per PTS energy draw sucked and it died for reasons!
So far all other debates in topic are all pro alpha strike.
Add this heat system in and on PTS, only those who can't adapt will be complaining because they'll keep running hot mechs that move slower and be easy pickings, while the rest of us will find matches last longer because much fewer alpha strikes and less long range +1000 metre boredom and honestly those players may as well just run LRMs and be done with it.

[LordNothing]

to fix laser alpha, stick erml in the lpl/hll gh group. to fix gauss vomit, ghost charge (more gausses = more charge time).

[justcallme A S H]

So someone who can heat manage well, and stay at 90% an entire game, using every ouch their mech has to offer to affect a battle as opposed to hiding until down to 0% before shooting again...

Means you have to take a penalty for being able to play/manage better???

That sounds like a sound idea...

[El Bandito]

justcallme A S H, on 02 August 2018 - 08:04 PM, said:

So someone who can heat manage well, and stay at 90% an entire game, using every ouch their mech has to offer to affect a battle as opposed to hiding until down to 0% before shooting again...

Means you have to take a penalty for being able to play/manage better???

That sounds like a sound idea...

Meaning you have to manage the risk vs. rewards more interactively. Skilled players will still be just as good, post progressive heat penalty.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 02 August 2018 - 08:04 PM, said:

So someone who can heat manage well, and stay at 90% an entire game, using every ouch their mech has to offer to affect a battle as opposed to hiding until down to 0% before shooting again...

Means you have to take a penalty for being able to play/manage better???

That sounds like a sound idea...

Thats kindve the whole point. You shouldnt be able to keep riding your heat at 90% without any kindve penalty whatsoever.

Overheating penalties in battletech are supposed to be gradual and cumulative. You shouldnt only suffer a penalty if you hit 100%. That's stupid because it just encourages players to run their mechs as hot as possible without shutting down. There's no incentive whatsoever to keep your heat lower than it needs to be to fire off your alpha.

Now is an accuracy penalty the best way to penalize that? I dont think so. But there should be some kindve penalty. I do think mechs should at least suffer a speed penalty when their heat is high. That makes sense to me that the performance of your mech is gonna degrade if your heat is high. Maybe even make the speed retention skill reduce some or all of that penalty, so its a more useful skill.

Im opposed to any kindve RNG/cone of fire penalties though. You should always be able to shoot where you aim. RNG has no place in the game. However I do think a mech should move better when its heat is lower than when its heat is higher, so theres more incentive to keep your heat as low as possible, rather than always riding it as high as possible. Knowing when to keep your heat low and when to ride it high would actually add to the skill of the game, not detract from it.

Edited by Khobai, 02 August 2018 - 09:27 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

El Bandito, on 02 August 2018 - 08:55 PM, said:

Meaning you have to manage the risk vs. rewards more interactively. Skilled players will still be just as good, post progressive heat penalty.

Not at all. Bad players cannot manage heat, they overheat, dont realise, get pressured etc.

All a good player will do to get around this is stay in cover until lower heat thresholds. It'll make the game even more passive/trade orientated than it is now.

Nothing good comes from scaled accuracy vs heat, absolutely nothing.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 02 August 2018 - 09:45 PM.

[El Bandito]

justcallme A S H, on 02 August 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

Nothing good comes from scaled accuracy vs heat, absolutely nothing.

There I disagree.

[Gretik]

justcallme A S H, on 02 August 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

Not at all. Bad players cannot manage heat, they overheat, dont realise, get pressured etc.

All a good player will do to get around this is stay in cover until lower heat thresholds. It'll make the game even more passive/trade orientated than it is now.

Nothing good comes from scaled accuracy vs heat, absolutely nothing.

I also disagree, I think that people will split between those who choose to play a "duck and cool" style and those who prefer a build that can maintain a decent throw weight whilst remaining under the threshold. Let's call them the "cool movers". "Duck and cool" will have the advantage in static fights, but they will have to take pauses between firing that the "cool movers" can take advantage of. If the threshold is balanced right, both should be viable. Sure, TTK at long range will go up - but close in the loss of firepower due to inaccuracy caused by heat will be countered by the loss of mitigation - 'mechs that can't move or twist as fast due to heat will get cored out faster.

Will this give a buff to lower heat options like gauss? Yes, but if the gauss is then paired up with high heat weapons they'll lose the benefits of taking heavy but cool weapons. We'd probably see more builds with a long and close range set of weapons. If you want to snipe with ERLL or HLL, you'll need to pack more heatsinks.

[Mystere]

SilentScreamer, on 02 August 2018 - 05:06 PM, said:

I'm not sure what "deterministic" applies to. Simply removing all convergence for torso weapons but still having it apply to arm-based weapons as currently implemented on the live servers might be enough? No convergence isn't an option with UAVs hovering overhead; it is needed to shoot them down with direct fire weapons.

By "deterministic", I meant that the shots will still go exactly where they need to go based on the current convergence situation. For example, assuming a zero convergence situation, laser fire will go straight.

[Akillius]

Mystere, on 03 August 2018 - 06:56 AM, said:

By "deterministic", I meant that the shots will still go exactly where they need to go based on the current convergence situation. For example, assuming a zero convergence situation, laser fire will go straight.

Sure. Your laser will go straight to where the aim point was, when it was randomly moving when the randomness started at say 50% heat or hotter.

PGI put on PTS and let the real fun begin.

Edited by Max Rickson, 04 August 2018 - 09:44 AM.