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Baseline Agility For Mechs

Balance BattleMechs

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#1 Xetelian

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 02:50 PM

Instead of using the DWF with its abysmal agility/mobility stats as a baseline for the rest of the mechs why not use a pre-desynced 350-360 engine Atlas?


Enough engine predesync that it worked as a brawler unlike now with its 300 engine rating stats (or lower).


Or we could just undo the desync entirely and nerf just the KDK 3 and the TBR on their own (though I don't think it is even warranted to nerf the TBR anymore)

Edited by Xetelian, 08 August 2018 - 02:51 PM.


#2 ingramli

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 04:25 PM

Actually KDK-3 is no longer OP since the meta has shifted to mega alpha, and dont forget Kodiak is already suffered from the high profile and lack of torso pitching/yaw ratio, it is no stronger than an annihilator IMO, if u ever feel that it is OP, you need to discourage the dakka boating (make more recoil shaking the cockpit and aim when firing too many at a time or so)

Back to the topic, i do agree that pretty much every mech needs a buff on baseline agility though, they all turns and twist too slow in my opinion (perhaps with the exceptions of 20ton ones, they need a little more armor though)

Edited by ingramli, 08 August 2018 - 05:26 PM.


#3 Xetelian

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 05:15 PM

I can agree that the KDK 3 is not an imposing figure anymore but I was pointing out that the main reason for the desync was to nerf the heck out of the TBR and KDK 3.


They did that and it looked so good on paper they decided ALL mechs needed to be nerfed (aside from the Dragon which has the highest agility/mobility by far of any heavy and more than a lot of lights have).

The damage is done and people are begging for their agility back, but a lot of these people are the same fools that asked for it in the first place.

#4 Prototelis

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 05:53 PM

I think assaults need a little buff and a boost to their mobility nodes in the skill tree.

But I really don't think the best performing highest scoring class in the game needs that much help.

Edited by Prototelis, 08 August 2018 - 05:54 PM.


#5 Thorqemada

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 09:58 PM

I spend half the points for the mobility tree (means i filled one sidestring of it to the Bottom) and it really makes a difference - not huge but nevertheless a difference that gives me a Little Edge and surprised quite some light who thought i could not track it...

The Problem is for IS Mechs that most IS Mechs are regarding to weapon hardpoints Torso heavy and have Little "Arm"ament, so you cant really deliver a Punch without putting your whole Torso toward the Target and that means more face time and less mobility than a mech with much weapons in its L+R Arms that also have a much higher tracking speed.

But in the end the Player has to make a choice of Mech and Skillpointusage and imho there is little reason to buff mobility and make it a free lunch again.

Edited by Thorqemada, 08 August 2018 - 09:58 PM.


#6 justcallme A S H

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 10:06 PM

The Atlas, assuming a STD350...

Took around a 40% nerf to torso twisting with Skill Tree... That was an epic hit and hence the mech is total garbage now. I'm confused how Chris has stated that is not the case, the numbers are there for all to see so I'm guessing he just doesn't understand them to make such a statement.

Anyway a few people are working on a spreadsheet (Taro/Navid & Co?) to explain the huge discrepancies between what we are being told and what has actually happened...

That will be ready soon and will really open some eyes.

I mean I've been running a Griffin lately for testing purposes and i has ~27% less torso speed/accell/decell than it's 55T brother - Wolverine. Literally the Griffin feels like a TBR yet the Wolverine feels like it should, a nice/fast Medium.

But again such disparities exist and after 16 months I think it is high time they were fixed as it is part of the reason for people complaining about big alphas and what not because they simply cannot twist damage even if they wanted to.

#7 YueFei

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Posted 08 August 2018 - 10:41 PM

View Postjustcallme A S H, on 08 August 2018 - 10:06 PM, said:

The Atlas, assuming a STD350...

Took around a 40% nerf to torso twisting with Skill Tree... That was an epic hit and hence the mech is total garbage now. I'm confused how Chris has stated that is not the case, the numbers are there for all to see so I'm guessing he just doesn't understand them to make such a statement.

Anyway a few people are working on a spreadsheet (Taro/Navid & Co?) to explain the huge discrepancies between what we are being told and what has actually happened...

That will be ready soon and will really open some eyes.

I mean I've been running a Griffin lately for testing purposes and i has ~27% less torso speed/accell/decell than it's 55T brother - Wolverine. Literally the Griffin feels like a TBR yet the Wolverine feels like it should, a nice/fast Medium.

But again such disparities exist and after 16 months I think it is high time they were fixed as it is part of the reason for people complaining about big alphas and what not because they simply cannot twist damage even if they wanted to.


Wouldn't be the first time that Game Devs are totally off-base and demonstrably quantifiably so. The difference is so staggering that it's shameful that we would even need to pull spreadsheets to prove it... just about anyone playing the game should feel the difference.

They also re-scaled the Atlas bigger than it was.

It's actually fairly simple to run the numbers to determine the necessary agility a mech needs to have in order to spread damage to adjacent hitboxes. It's just a matter of starting with the premise of a shooter with perfect aim that has 200 millisecond reaction time, and with either DoT weaponry or projectiles with flight time, that the person being shot at can still move their mech enough to displace sufficiently that they take the hit on an adjacent hitbox, and not the intended one.

I've already run the numbers on this more than half a year ago for the Atlas, and calculated that it really needs to have at least something like a 44 deg/sec turn rate, 100 deg/sec torso twist speed, and an accel/decel of 22.5 (which, coincidentally, would be rather similar to the agility of the Cyclops). And frankly even with that kind of buff, the Atlas would still need full investment into the skill tree to bring it up to the required agility to spread incoming damage against the best shooters in this game.

#8 ingramli

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 03:10 AM

Remove the engine desync for STD engine, make huge STD engine mech torso twist faster, problem solved.

P.S. (DAYDREAMING MODE, PGI wont listen)

#9 LowSubmarino

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 06:08 AM

View PostXetelian, on 08 August 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

Instead of using the DWF with its abysmal agility/mobility stats as a baseline for the rest of the mechs why not use a pre-desynced 350-360 engine Atlas?


Enough engine predesync that it worked as a brawler unlike now with its 300 engine rating stats (or lower).


Or we could just undo the desync entirely and nerf just the KDK 3 and the TBR on their own (though I don't think it is even warranted to nerf the TBR anymore)


Some of the mediums were hit so hard in terms of agility, thats its outright ridiculous.

Compare the agility of e.g. the Uziel to that of the lets say Shadowhawk.

Completly unskilled, with no points in mobility, the Uziel seems ten times as agile as the shadowhawk with every last point pumped into mobility.

Theres many other mechs that suffer greatly because of super sluggish mobility.

I mean....they gotta look at how big a mech is. Mechs like shadowhawk, trebuchet, griffin.....they are huge. Focking huge.

They present too much of a target and if they are slow and slugghish, then they will die. This kind of firepower that is wandering about in mwo, you are either fast or you have tons of armor.

They changed it in a way, so that big, huge mechs with not much armor, possibly running IS XL engines, are super sluggish. I mean, ive been playing this game for so long, and no matter what anyobdy says, thats just wrong. You cant have super slugglish mechs with no armor be so immobile. Thats just not right. It killed eg the shadowhawk cause theres mechs that are so much more agile that you can even save all the mobility pionts and pump them into firepower or armor or what not.

They need to address that.

I rarely play assaults cause they too damn slow and in QP theyre way, waaaayyy x 100 too reliant on team. Cant disengange. Just way too slow. So I dont really know about which mechs are not agile enough in that weight class. But mediums.....damn. The Shadowhawk was basically massacred by that agilitly nerf. Same with the hunchback IIC (i mean, hell....that thing is even less agile than the shadowhawk which is basically impossible, cause the shadowhawk is less agile than a dead turtle. Not a living turtle, mind you, but a dead turtle or a dead slug. Its just not moving at all and for that size, its at the very least 5 times too sluggish meanign it has to be 5 times as agile or its just dead).

Dunno who made those agility nerfs, but they didnt slightly nerf,or moderately,they killed entire mechs with those nerfs, cause they are nowhere competitive anymore withthis kind of agility.

Its quite simple and I dunno how pgi can overlook that.

But you either have big huge armor or you are very fast (or you ecm) as the main defense. If you take away speed and agility from a mech that is big, an easy target, but with no armor, then you create a bad, very very bad mech taht will get their pilots killed.

BTW this is one reason why so many ppl struggle with piranhas that just melt with one solid alpha or with other very fast mechs. Moblity is so important. Its an even stronger attribute than tons or armor because it opens up so many strategies and enables you to trade well to a point where you dont even need your armor and can even use IS XL engiens, cause speed and mobility will enable you to trade very well.

Take that away and you kill mechs taht are not agile enough.

One reason I truely love piloting the uziel amon many other mediums is that it feels so smooth, so natural to pilot it. It turns, moves, looks very fluently and is quick. Thats how a medium mech that cannot take many hits should feel like.

Not like this shadowhawk. Feels like im stuck in the mud when running that thing.

#10 Verilligo

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 06:36 AM

View PostLowSubmarino, on 09 August 2018 - 06:08 AM, said:


Some of the mediums were hit so hard in terms of agility, thats its outright ridiculous.

Compare the agility of e.g. the Uziel to that of the lets say Shadowhawk.

Completly unskilled, with no points in mobility, the Uziel seems ten times as agile as the shadowhawk with every last point pumped into mobility.

I understand your general point here, but this is a really weird comparison to make. You're comparing the Shadowhawk, a 55-ton mech with offense-oriented quirks, with an Uziel, a 50-ton mech with few quirks that is specifically designed to be extremely agile. I mean the agility of the Uziel is its ONLY selling point, the devs sacrificed all other possible boosts in order to give it the agility it has. The wisdom of that is in question, sure, but if you want a mech 5 tons heavier to be just as agile while also having better offensive capabilities and a better shape for twisting off damage... that seems a little much. Same deal with comparing the Wolverine to the Griffin, the impression that I got was the Wolverine was supposed to be superior in agility to give it a selling point compared to other 55-ton mechs.

Baseline agility of ALL mechs absolutely needs to increase, but either some mechs need to be more sluggish than others to make up for quirks/hardpoints or we need a re-evaluation of the quirks and hardpoints available for each mech. I'd say the first option of those two is the better one. And with regards to the TBR... does anyone see any reason why it shouldn't just mirror the profile of the Marauder?

#11 Weeny Machine

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Posted 09 August 2018 - 06:51 AM

View PostXetelian, on 08 August 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

Instead of using the DWF with its abysmal agility/mobility stats as a baseline for the rest of the mechs why not use a pre-desynced 350-360 engine Atlas?


Enough engine predesync that it worked as a brawler unlike now with its 300 engine rating stats (or lower).


Or we could just undo the desync entirely and nerf just the KDK 3 and the TBR on their own (though I don't think it is even warranted to nerf the TBR anymore)


Two things to the whole issue in general:

1. A 35t mechs agility isn't great either (heck, some mediums and even a Linebacker has better agility values than 35t mechs - which is a bad joke imo), especially considering their size since the infernal general re-sizing

2. I see that 100t assaults are really sluggish. However, buffing them too much will make them counter lights even more easily. Considering that a dual heavy gauss finishes off nearly all lights or one good enormous alpha...
2.

#12 PobbestGob

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:09 AM

dragon and quickdraw are also as agile as some mechs half their weight for whatever reason Posted Image

#13 Verilligo

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 05:44 AM

View PostKill2Blit, on 13 August 2018 - 01:09 AM, said:

dragon and quickdraw are also as agile as some mechs half their weight for whatever reason Posted Image

Because they're not very good mechs. They don't pack much firepower and have questionable hitboxes. In particular the Dragon has a really, really prominent nose and the Quickdraw has pretty easily isolated torso segments. The Dragon was given armor and maneuverability to make up for both, while most Quickdraws were only given the maneuverability because they could at least host a whole lot of lasers. The IV-4 was given armor as well because it had really crap hardpoints.

Of course once Civil War came, the Dragon 5N and the IV-4 got weapons that compensated for their dearth of hardpoints, so they ended up not sacrificing much. But if they didn't have those weapons, their maneuverability, and their armor quirks, I VERY highly doubt they would ever be used because that combination is the only thing elevating them from the trash heap. They could handle minor reductions, sure, but it's hard to trust PGI to do an appropriately small nerf.

#14 Khobai

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 05:59 AM

View PostXetelian, on 08 August 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

Instead of using the DWF with its abysmal agility/mobility stats as a baseline for the rest of the mechs why not use a pre-desynced 350-360 engine Atlas?


the DWF is way below baseline IMO.

no mech should accelerate so slowly they automatically get hit by artillery. that defeats the purpose of giving a warning with red smoke.

all mechs should have at least enough acceleration to clear an artillery's radius in 7 seconds.

they need to at least double, if not triple, the acceleration of the DWF.

View PostBush Hopper, on 09 August 2018 - 06:51 AM, said:

2. I see that 100t assaults are really sluggish. However, buffing them too much will make them counter lights even more easily. Considering that a dual heavy gauss finishes off nearly all lights or one good enormous alpha...


Only if you buff their torso twist.

the direwolf doesnt need a torso twist buff though. it needs an acceleration buff.

and it needs CUACs to not constantly jam. assault firepower is only as good as the ballistics they can spam. and CUACs jam way too much.

Edited by Khobai, 13 August 2018 - 06:04 AM.






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