36 replies to this topic

[OmniFail]

Darakor Stormwind, on 10 August 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

I would agree that it makes sense to be able to boost AMS range. If anything adds to missile range, it makes sense that it would also add range to (missile based) AMS. If it adds to laser range, it makes sense for the equipment to add to LAMS range. I think doubling the amount of ammo is probably overkill. 1 ton of AMS ammo with 2 AMS nodes will normally shoot down around 300-325 missiles on average. IIRC LRM ammo is 250 per ton. So one ton of AMS ammo neutralises a bit over one ton of LRM ammo. Asking for a 2:1 ratio might be a bit much...

Don't underestimate how powerful a boost to AMS range is. Essentially you are allowing AMS to start shooting LRMs farther out thus killing more LRM's. Combined with Overload nodes this is devastating.

Also keep in mind that LRM5s are extinct because of the rise of AMS and LRM10s have not fared much better.

Darakor Stormwind, on 10 August 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

I am finewith a 3:1 ratio in cbill and match score reward, then. No need to be greedy. 3 missiles shot down could then grant the exact same reward as 1 missile hit on the enemy.

I hate to say it after all the LRM skill threads. But Ill give it a go.

AMS=No Skill

Why should a no skill piece of equipment be as rewarding as a piece of equipment that requires some skill. Also there is a disparaging difference in the weight requirements for earning such a reward.You don't even have to match up red Doritos. Why should this item be so rewarding?

*Smacks Darakor* No indirect nerfs either.

Not attacking you bro. Just debating.

Edited by OmniFail, 10 August 2018 - 11:18 AM.

[Phoenix 72]

OmniFail, on 10 August 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

Don't underestimate how powerful a boost to AMS range is. Essentially you are allowing AMS to start shooting LRMs farther out thus killing more LRM's. Combined with Overload nodes this is devastating.

Not really. You still have the same amount of ammo. The amount of missiles being shot down wouldnot change all that much. It would just destroy a larger percentage of the first ton of LRM ammo.

OmniFail, on 10 August 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

Also keep in mind that LRM5s are extinct because of the rise of AMS and LRM10s have not fared much better.

Agreed. The problem is cyclic. More people are using missiles, so more people are bringing AMS, which invalidates smaller launchers, which causes people to bring more tubes, which causes people to bring more AMS. You are going to reach a point where people either say "**** it." and give up on playing at all, because they cannot overcome the missiles (which, btw, is why I stopped playing MWO way back in beta) or it will reach a point where the AMS' are so prevalent that people no longer bring missiles. Which will then eventually stop people from fielding AMS and the whole thing starts over. Depending on where we are in that cycle, there are different people at different stages of unhappiness.

OmniFail, on 10 August 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

I hate to say it after all the LRM skill threads. But Ill give it a go.
AMS=No Skill

Why should a no skill piece of equipment be as rewarding as a piece of equipment that requires some skill. Also there is a disparaging difference in the weight requirements for earning such a reward.You don't even have to match up red Doritos. Why should this item be so rewarding?

Agreed, AMS takes no skill at all. But a person gives up personal performance by not taking more ammo or less heat sinks or anything else that could fit into their Mech, just to bring an additional utility to their team, that may not even be needed in every game. This game is supposed to be based on team work. Bringing AMS is nice team work. Which should be incenticised, in my opinion.

I am currently playing a 2AMS Crab 27 for the majority of my games. It is mastered. I can get roughly the same match score, more money and more damage playing either my Roughneck or Marauder, neither of which are skilled. I play the Crab to help people dealing with missiles. And I think it would be a nice move for PGI to give me a cookie for that.

***EDIT: As far as the skill level goes, the only thing LRMs have to do that an AMSer does not have to do is press R and left- or right click at odd intervals, since at range there is not all that much aiming/tracking of the target involved. The computer tracks the missiles into the target. Any argument made for requiring organisational skills, positioning, team coherence, etc. that can be made for requiring skills for lurming can also be made for AMSing.***

Edited by Darakor Stormwind, 10 August 2018 - 12:18 PM.

[Magnus Santini]

Eisenhorne, on 09 August 2018 - 10:41 PM, said:

AMS is only useful on fast brawlers so they can close the distance under ams cover. Otherwise you just run out of ammo too ...

AMS is useful on fast mechs because every missile you shoot down to help your team is a little lifespan for a bigger gun to keep shooting.[/color][/color]

OmniFail, on 10 August 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

AMS=No Skill

AMS requires the skill of positioning to make it useful to your team. Otherwise it will waste its ammo shooting into a rock trying to hit missiles hitting the other side of the rock.

Edited by Magnus Santini, 10 August 2018 - 12:20 PM.

[Eisenhorne]

Magnus Santini, on 10 August 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

AMS requires the skill of positioning to make it useful to your team. Otherwise it will waste its ammo shooting into a rock trying to hit missiles hitting the other side of the rock.

As far as I can tell, AMS "clips" through terrain and still takes out missiles.

[Verilligo]

Eisenhorne, on 10 August 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

As far as I can tell, AMS "clips" through terrain and still takes out missiles.

I think the idea was that if you're shooting down missiles that are inbound on a rock, you've wasted your AMS ammo because the missiles were going to hit... a rock.

[Quxudica]

The only way to "fix" LRM's is to completely redesign their lock on mechanic. From the very start of Alpha to now, LRM's have received by far the most nerfs and buffs because the way they function makes them virtually impossible to balance.

[Khobai]

invincible terrain is what really screws over LRMs

to actually have functionally competitive LRMs you would need destructible terrain

[xe N on]

Easiest change:

Increase spread for LRMs
Un-nerf Artemis spread reduction for all missiles (25%) beside MRMs
Make TAG and NARC also work for spread reduction in addition to Artemis (each +10%) for all missiles beside MRMs and SSRMs
Increase the lock time for indirect targeting with LRMs.
Reduce the lock time for direct targeting with LRMs.

Summary: LRMs become much less efficient if fired indirectly. But much more efficient if fired directly or with team work (TAG/NARC). Maximum spread reduction would be 25%+5%+10%+10% = 50%, for LRMs and SRMs.Nice side effect: SRM brawling would be viable again.

Edited by xe N on, 11 August 2018 - 12:27 AM.

[Vonbach]

Lrms are already fixed its called cover and ams.

[MischiefSC]

Shrink the AMS radius, increase AMS damage. Reward people for dedicating their own tonnage to AMS. Currently 4 teammates with AMS, a couple with 2x or 3x AMS is pretty much all a team needs to just walk right up and roll over a LRM heavy team. Admittedly you'd need to be with pugs who are not too stupid to understand the value of grouping up to share AMS and who are not too cowardly to actually close with the enemy but it happens.

Buff direct fire accuracy, more to the point dramatically flatted trajectory on direct fire. Hell give a direct fire launch a ballistic trajectory and AC20 velocity. Roll back recent velocity buffs on indirect fire. Or require indirect fire to have a TAG or NARC on target or both you and locking teammate to have TCs.

THAT would make a world of difference. It would make me **** bricks to see an LRM80 SNV. You'd probably need a small damage reduction or some such because it would make LRMs strong AF.

[The Mysterious Fox]

ams is like bringing an umbrella full of holes to the middle of a thunderstorm, even if everyone brings ams, its just a bunch of faulty umbrellas in a hailstorm.

[evilauthor]

Verilligo, on 10 August 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

I think the idea was that if you're shooting down missiles that are inbound on a rock, you've wasted your AMS ammo because the missiles were going to hit... a rock.

That's not necessarily the case. I've seen AMS shoot down missiles through obstacles when the missiles in question were aimed at a target outside of shelter.

[MischiefSC]

If I could bring a 0.5 ton item with 1 ton of ammo that mitigated 30% of laser and ballistic damage I would be an idiot not to take it. While you can mitigate LRMs with cover and positioning and there's an advantage to the other team actively keeping people off the firing line so you can focus them easier it's still always smart to bring AMS. It's a ton and a half.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Eisenhorne, on 09 August 2018 - 09:46 PM, said:

Double AMS ammo per ton. Add AMS range bonuses to targeting computers. That would make me consider taking AMS on my mechs, because right now it's useless.

Let's get this out of the way:
AMS mechanics are dumb currently, if you have enough that they prevent LRMs from doing useful damage then they are too powerful and become practically a hard counter, but if they only mitigate little there is no point in taking them. Now don't get me wrong, lock-on missile mechanics are borked and probably need to be fixed well before AMS but AMS itself also needs to change in functionality to not be as passive. So here's my ideas on changing it to promote more interesting gameplay:

• Remove ammo based AMS, there is a reason MW4 removed it in favor of LAMS across the board, and it's because its silly to have a utility option that is going to run out of ammo. It's similar to JJs running out of fuel or something similar. LAMS by having heat also promotes more active usage of itself because it can naturally limit how long/often you use it.
  
• Make it similar to D'Va's shield, when you engage it, it can stop all missiles (and potentially all projectiles so it is more useful than just lock-on weapons) but you can't keep it up constantly and you can't fire through it. Now that doesn't quite make sense in this game, but again, that's why it generates heat. So much like Stealth Armor it should generate a substantial amount of heat that way you don't have hard caps on its usage like D'Va's shield or prevent weapon fire since heat will do that for you.
  
• Make it conical rather than spherical in the area of protection just so while LAMS is up it has opportunities around it.

This game has way too many passive pieces of equipment like ECM, BAP, etc. We need to start thinking about ways to make these pieces of equipment more useful AND promote more active usage/play of them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 12 August 2018 - 08:36 AM.

[Ruccus]

I'm not sure if it can be done, but my suggestion would be to make the LRM indirect fire range 60 to 66% of its direct fire range. That means while you can shoot at targets up to 900m away using direct fire, for indirect fire the target would have to be 540 to 600m away.

My thinking is that shrinking the indirect fire range forces the LRM boat closer to the battle to use indirect fire while still allowing spotters, NARC, TAG, and UAVs to be useful. For the enemy, a coordinated rush should have a better chance of success inside of 600m rather than having to clear 700 to 800m or more to get to the LRM boats.

[MischiefSC]

Flatten direct fire, boost direct fire speed. Make ECM slow, not block locks. I really like your AMS idea - at least it makes heat management skills wrapped into using AMS and makes it worth the effort/energy. Nerf IDF a bit (roll back velocity buffs). Make IS and Clan LRMs do damage inside min. Range, 1/2.
Seems like you'd have a better overall LRM/Counters setup.

[S O L A I S]

Lurms don't need any nerfing.... they are finally worth bringing and provide a relaxing stress free, one button release for the organised. PGI now really needs to work dire quality of life issues such as being able to use one of the screens in my cockpit for YouTube whilst I lurms safely from the back with help from my narcing friends.