13 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

This thread is in response to:

Paul Inouye, on 07 August 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

• Focused balance passes. Not global balance passes
• Current focus is on the 94 efficient alpha and the discrepancy between Clan and IS laser vomit performance against one another.

~snip~

• Lasers aren't being targeted because they are the considered the highest performers so much that there is a clear rift in viability of energy centric load-outs between the IS and the Clan side.

~snip~

• Will not be blindly balancing upwards to meet Clan Laser vomit without proper give/take and taking into consideration all other areas of balance.
• While upwards trajectories always sound good, there are consequences that would massively disrupt other states of play within the game. Such as massively buffing armor to compete against higher alphas out of heavy and assault 'Mechs, but then light on light mech gameplay would take forever to whittle through all of the armor with low weapon counts and high armor values.
• Any change that comes from PTS will not be a one sided change. We will be examining other attributes from both sides of the faction spectrum.

Gap summary (ongoing):

• Clan builds possess, on average, 25.2% larger alpha strikes at 400-600 meters
  
• Clan builds possess, on average, 4.3% larger alpha strikes at 300-450 meters
  
• IS builds possess, on average, a 4.3% advantage in maximum DPS at 400-600 meters
  
• Clan builds possess, on average, an 8.4% advantage in maximum DPS at 300-450 meters
  
• Clan builds possess, on average, 24% superior sustained DPS at 400-600 meters
  
• Clan builds possess, on average, 31% superior sustained DPS at 300-450 meters
  
• Clan builds possess 10% more range (optimum and maximum) at the 400-600 meters
  
• IS builds possess, on average, 8% to 12.5% more maximum range at 300-450 meters
  
• Clan builds possess, on average, 25% more optimum range at 300-450 meters
  
• Clan builds deal, on average, 92% of the damage of an IS build within the same duration as the IS build, and 100% within 0.1 seconds of that duration

TL;DR: Clan builds empirically run COLDER with BIGGER ALPHAS and LONGER RANGE.





So what is the gap between IS laser vomit and Clan laser vomit? The hypothesis is that Clan laser-vomit out-performs IS laser-vomit. That hypothesis is generally accepted as true, though the degree to which it is true is often a source of much debate. I am not comfortable with the broad brush PGI is currently painting the issue with, focusing too much on alpha size and not enough on DPS and cooling. What I want to accomplish with this thread is to demonstrate the ways in which Clan vomit is superior, ways in which it is not, and maybe submit some solutions to address the gaps without creating new ones. We will examine laser vomit by range bracket.

Assumptions

Spoiler

There are some ground rules we need to establish so that everybody reading is on the same page:

1. We are comparing builds without quirks and skill tree; since the goal is to establish a new baseline, we need to observe what the current baseline actually is
2. We are ignoring size, geometry, and agility differences; we are comparing the build potential, not the build potential on the specific 'Mech used in the example. I will try to use what I think are the most comparable builds in the game in terms of how they play and feel, but if somebody has another idea feel free to suggest pairof ‘Mechs for comparison.

Next, I want to define what some parameters mean:

Basics:
Damage per Second (DPS) = Damage / (Duration + Cooldown)
Damage per Tick (DPT) = Damage / Duration
Heat per Second (HPS) = Heat / (Duration + Cooldown)

Advanced:
Net Heat = Heat – Dissipation
Time to Zero = (Net Heat) / Dissipation
Max DPS = the sum of the DPS for each weapon
Sustained DPS = Max DPS * (Dissipation / HPS)

Moving on, I want to start by defining which lasers compete with each other as defined by the realities of the gameplay. That means how the weapons handle, where they handle, how hot they get, and how they combine with other weapons rather than what the developers intended them to align with:

Spoiler

IS Small Laser: competes with Clan Small Pulse and ER Micro
Range: 150/300 v. 165/297 v. 150/300
Damage: 3.25 v. 4 v. 2.4
Heat: 1.1 v. 2.05 v. 1.35
Duration: 0.75 v. 0.6 v. 0.75
Cooldown: 2.25 v. 1.90 v. 2.25

Ranges is very similar, duration is very similar, heat is very similar. When combined with Medium Pulse, the IS can create a combination that operates with similar range, damage, and heat efficiency for the weight as cSPL. The Clan ER Micro is similar, but only when massed in very large bundles and it requires stagger-fire to circumvent ghost heat.

IS Small Pulse: competes with Clan Small Pulse and Micro Pulse
Range: 110/220 v. 165/297 v. 90/180
Damage: 3.5 v. 4 v. 2.7
Heat: 1.35 v. 2.05 v. 1.35
Duration: 0.75 v. 0.6 v. 0.75
Cooldown: 1.9 v. 1.90 v. 1.6


Range is very similar, with cSPL being an outlier. Duration is very similar. Heat is similar. Cool-downs are similar. The SPL has enough DPS that it is usually only 1 or 2 guns away from competing against cSPL. Similar to the situation with SL, the Clan Micro Pulse can mount similar DPS in very large bundles, but again it has to stagger-fire to avoid ghost heat.

IS ER Small: competes with Clan ER Small
Range: 200/400 v. 200/400
Damage: 3.25 v. 5
Heat: 2.2 v. 3.5
Duration: 0.75 v. 1.1
Cooldown: 2.75 v. 3.5

Range is identical, damage-per heat is similar (1.42 vs. 1.47). No IS ‘Mech can mass Smalls like Clans, but wombo-combos with MPL can at least make ERSL perform in a similar capacity to ‘Mechs running 6 or less cERSL, but the weight equation is not in the IS favor.

IS Medium Laser: competes with Clan Medium Pulse
Range: 270/540 v. 330/480
Damage: 5 v. 7
Heat: 3.4 v. 4.75
Duration: 0.9 v. 0.9
Cooldown: 3.5 v. 3.0

Overall ranges are similar, damage-per-heat is the same (1.47), duration is the same (0.9). Massed cMPL with larger TCs offer slightly more damage than IS bundles of ML and LPL at similar ranges and with similar heat.

IS ER Medium: competes with Clan ER Medium
Range: 360/720 v. 400/800
Damage: 5 v. 7
Heat: 4.5 v. 6.3
Duration: 0.9 v. 1.25
Cooldown: 4.00 v. 4.5

Ranges are not quite comparable, but close enough for the mid-range job. Damage per heat is the same (1.11), damage over duration is the same (5.56). Both are used in conjunction with Large-class lasers.

IS Large Laser: competes with Clan Large Pulse and Heavy Large
Range: 450/900 v. 600/840 v. 450/900
Damage: 9 v. 12 v. 18
Heat: 7 v. 10 v. 16
Duration: 1.1 v. 1.09 v. 1.55
Cooldown: 3.10 v. 3.20 v. 5.75

Against Large Pulse: Overall ranges are similar, damage-per-heat is marginally better (1.28 v. 1.2), duration is the same (1.1), damage over duration for max group size is similar (24.5 v. 22.0

Against Heavy Large: ranges are the same, damage over duration for max group size is similar (24.5 v. 23.2)

IS ER Large Laser: competes with Clan ER Large Laser
Range: 675/1350 v. 740/1480
Damage: 9 v. 11
Heat: 8 v. 10.8
Duration: 1.1 v. 1.35
Cooldown: 3.4 v. 4

Damage over duration is comparable, DPS is comparable. Heat efficiency is similar. Range is really not close enough for long range role, but as the longest-range option the IS are forced to use it anyway.

The IS Large Pulse has no direct Clan counterpart, but when it is combined with MedLas and ER MedLas, it competes against Clan MedPulse and Clan ER MedLas, respectively. Similarly, the IS Medium Pulse has no direct Clan counterpart in its range bracket, and competes against against Clan Small Pulse and ER Small when combined with Small and ER Small, respectively.

There are no IS analogues to the Clan Heavy Small and Heavy Medium lasers, alone or in combination.

Mid-range Analysis
Between 300 and 600 meters are contained the most powerful single-shot, non-ghosting firing solutions. It is also the source of the 94-point alpha boogeyman. Let’s examine performance deltas between some common IS and Clan options for Mediums, Heavies, and Assaults (classic “fast” Lights do not really participate in this bracket in any significant way).

Medium

Spoiler

HBK-4P
- LFE 275
- 1x LPL
- 6x ERML
- 17x DHS

Alpha: 40
Heat: 34.5
Max DPS: 8.84
Max HPS: 7.49
Dissipation: 3.05
Capacity: 60.5
Sustained DPS: 3.56

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 31.76, or 52% of the cap, and it takes 10.4 seconds to cool that to zero.


HBK-IIC-A
- LFE 275
- 1x HLL
- 5x ERML
- 24x DHS
- 1x JJ

Alpha: 53
Heat: 47.5
Max DPS: 8.55
Max HPS: 7.67
Dissipation: 4.1
Capacity: 71
Sustained DPS: 4.56

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 41.15, or 58% of the cap, and it takes 10.04 seconds to cool that to zero.

The relative performance of the Clan ‘Mech compared against the IS ‘Mech is:
Alpha: +32.5%
Max DPS: -3.3%
Sustained DPS: +28.1%

Discussion:
What we have here is a ‘Mech that does a third again as much damage on the alpha strike and has almost a third again as much continuous output once it reaches heat saturation if we are counting continuous alpha strikes. Fiddling with partial salvos doesn’t change the sustainability delta by any considerable amount because the cool-downs become a limiting factor for both.
A common refrain will be that the IS ‘Mech has shorter duration, but if you look at the DPT for the Clan ‘Mech while both lasers are active (the first 1.25 seconds out of the 1.55 second total burn), 39.6, it does as much damage in 1 second as the IS one does in 0.9 seconds. Human reaction times and the finite agility on ‘Mechs in the game makes this on-paper advantage functionally useless.
The only trade the Clan option makes is a negligible deficit in maximum DPS, a deficit it can make up by adding a sixth cERML while still maintaining an advantage in sustainability. It wins the trade, it wins the push, and it wins on range; there is no tangible advantage to the baseline IS gear on Medium ‘Mechs at the 400-600 meter bracket.

Heavy

Spoiler

WHM-6D
- LFE 300
- 3x LL
- 5x ERML
- 20x DHS

Alpha: 52
Heat: 43.5
Max DPS: 11.52
Max HPS: 9.59
Dissipation: 3.5
Capacity: 65
Sustained DPS: 4.2

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 39.65, or 61% of the cap, and it takes 11.33 seconds to cool that to zero.


HBR
- cXL 325
- 2x HLL
- 4x ERML
- 25x DHS
- ECM

Alpha: 64
Heat: 57.2
Max DPS: 9.91
Max HPS: 8.77
Dissipation: 4.25
Capacity: 72.5
Sustained DPS: 4.8

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 50.61, or 70% of the cap, and it takes 11.91 seconds to cool that to zero.

The relative performance of the Clan ‘Mech compared against the IS ‘Mech is:
Alpha: +23.1%
Max DPS: -14%
Sustained DPS: +14%

Discussion:
We have a similar situation with the Heavies to what we found in the Mediums, but there is a little bit more of a trade-off for maximum DPS. The caveat to that is that the WHM doesn’t have the heat efficiency to actually use that DPS advantage. Both sides’ ‘Mechs are going to be heat-capped in two shots, and from there the Clan option begins edging out despite the marginally larger gap between blasts.
Looking at the duration equation again, the Clan ‘Mech will do 45.6 damage in 1 second. Compare to the 52 damage done in 1.1 seconds by the IS ‘Mech, and the Clan ‘Mech will have done 50.2 damage in the same time frame. Another tenth of a second and it will deal 54.7. So, again, the IS duration advantage counts for very little because of human and ‘Mech constraints.

I do want to point out that there are other Clan options which are even more potent even at 65 tons, and we haven’t even seen what an optimal 75-tonner can do. There is 2x cERLL + 6x cERML or 2x cLPL + 6x cERML on the EBJ, which do the same or +2 damage in even less time (-0.2 and –0.3 seconds, respectively), and with greater max DPS (+1.5 and +3, respectively), for +1.2 and +0.6 heat, respectively.

The IS have options, too, but less potent and requiring an upgrade to 75 tons for peak performance. They add another ERML, but that’s +5 damage for +4.5 heat and it takes 12.6 seconds to cool a single alpha down to zero. Or they can swap the three LL down to two LPL for a –2 damage and –2 heat for the honor of shaving the cool-off time to ~11 seconds. They can also swap the 3x LL to 3x LPL at the cost of +0.75 heat; this option closes the sustained DPS gap to ~0.2-0.3 and the alpha gap to just 4-6 points from 12, but requires the risk associated with an IS XL engine and takes a mediocre 13.4 seconds to cool a single alpha down to zero with only 19 DHS.

At the end of the day, none of the IS options is as powerful, or as efficient, but the competition is closer than what we find at the Medium class, placing more emphasis on the pilot and on the specific ‘Mech characteristics. It’s really the lack of a Clan BattleMech in the 65-75 ton range with sufficient energy hardpoints and engine size is keeping it even this close, and even with that handicap there is no baseline incentive to use the IS option.

Assault

Spoiler

BLR-3M
- LFE 350
- 3x LPL
- 5x ERML
- 20x DHS

Alpha: 55
Heat: 48
Max DPS: 13.28
Max HPS: 10.52
Dissipation: 3.5
Capacity: 65
Sustained DPS: 4.42

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 44.85, or 69% of the cap, and it takes 12.8 seconds to cool that to zero.


MAD-IIC
- cXL 350
- 2x cLPL
- 6x cERML
- 30x cDHS

Alpha: 66
Heat: 57.8
Max DPS: 12.90
Max HPS: 11.24
Dissipation: 5.0
Capacity: 80
Sustained DPS: 5.74

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 51.55, or 64% of the cap, and it takes 10.31 seconds to cool that to zero.

The relative performance of the Clan ‘Mech compared against the IS ‘Mech is:
Alpha: +20%
Max DPS: -3.1%
Sustained DPS: +29%

Discussion:
Ouch. The overall delta is almost as large as what we saw in the Medium class. There really isn’t much to say here that is any different, except that Assaults are even less agile and that longer beam durations are even less of a hindrance than they are at the more agile Medium and Heavy sizes. And that sustained DPS is untouchable; the BLR can only manage ~4.7 by firing partial salvos, and stepping up 10 tons to get an extra DHS only gets the IS to ~5.0 sustained DPS with partial salvos (and the Clans can step up 5 tons to widen the gap again using SHS boating). The time it takes to cool off a single alpha from the MAD-IIC is also significantly lower than the BLR; two and a half seconds!

Looking at the duration, the Clan ‘Mech will do 50.05 damage in the 0.9 seconds it takes the IS one to deal 55, and 58.6 after the extra 0.19 seconds it takes the cLPL to finish burning, with another 7.4 damage still on the way from the cERML. With bigger frames and less agility, the BLR is cooked unless it can get the jump. Exacerbating things, it’s 5 damage short compared to a Black Knight for no other changes in engine type or DHS count.

With such large deficits in alpha and sustained DPS for only a marginal advantage in max DPS, which it again can’t use because it runs so hot, there is no reason to ever consider an IS laser vomit Assault for 400-600 meter trading. It has the performance of a Clan Medium at twice the physical size.

All of the previous looks have been for the medium-long bracket (400-600 m). Now let’s quickly examine what happens at the Medium-Short bracket (300-450 m).

Medium

Spoiler

HBK-4P
- LFE 275
- 1x LPL
- 6x ML
- 17x DHS

Alpha: 40
Heat: 27.65
Max DPS: 9.54
Max HPS: 6.61
Dissipation: 3.05
Capacity: 60.5
Sustained DPS: 4.4

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 24.91, or 41% of the cap, and it takes 8.17 seconds to cool that to zero.


HBK-IIC-A
- cXL 275
- 6x cMPL
- 21x cDHS
- 1x JJ
- TC2

Alpha: 42
Heat: 28.5
Max DPS: 10.77
Max HPS: 7.31
Dissipation: 3.65
Capacity: 62
Sustained DPS: 5.38

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 41.15, or 41% of the cap, and it takes 6.9 seconds to cool that to zero.

The relative performance of the Clan ‘Mech compared against the IS ‘Mech is:
Alpha: +5%
Max DPS: +12.9%
Sustained DPS: +22%

Discussion:
It has to get a little closer from max range (504 m max after the TC2 vs. 540 on the IS), but within the optimum it steamrolls the IS option. More DPS, more sustained DPS, shorter cool-down between shots, same duration. The only baseline advantage the IS ‘Mech has here is in being marginally more range-flexible, with that LPL providing some annoying damage out to ~450 meters, but otherwise nothing to write home about.

Note, the Clan Medium-Long option from earlier is still putting out slightly better sustained DPS than the IS Medium-Close option, though not by much. To me, this suggests that the IS Medium-Short option is about as heat efficient as the IS Medium-Long option needs to be.

Heavy

Spoiler

BL-7-KNT
- XL 350
- 3x LPL
- 6x MPL
- 19x DHS

Alpha: 60
Heat: 42.15
Max DPS: 14.99
Max HPS: 10.56
Dissipation: 3.35
Capacity: 59
Sustained DPS: 4.76

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 39.14, or 66% of the cap, and it takes 11.6 seconds to cool that to zero.

EBJ
- cXL 325
- 8x cMPL
- 25x cDHS
- TC1

Alpha: 56
Heat: 47.03 (with ghost heat, 38 without)
Max DPS: 14.35
Max HPS: 12.05 (with ghost heat, 9.74 without)
Dissipation: 4.25
Capacity: 72.5
Sustained DPS: 5.06 (with ghost heat, 6.26 without)

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 43.205 with ghost heat (32.05 if you stagger-fire), or 60% (44%)of the cap, and it takes 10.17 seconds (7.54 seconds) to cool that to zero.

The relative performance of the Clan ‘Mech compared against the IS ‘Mech is:
Alpha: -6.7%
Max DPS: -4.3%
Sustained DPS: +6.3% with ghost heat, +31.5% if staggered.

Discussion:
This is an oddball case where the IS has both the larger alpha and the higher DPS, even if only just. Like the HBK, the IS also has slightly better max range. Inside the optimum for both, though, the Clan has the ability to poke for a burn just as short as the IS or stagger-fire to push with. Either option results in greater sustained output, it’s just a question of how much.

Again, though, the efficiency on the IS option is about where the Medium-Long needs to be at.

Assault:

Spoiler

BLR-3M
- LFE 350
- 3x LPL
- 5x ML
- 20x DHS

Alpha: 55
Heat: 38.75
Max DPS: 13.86
Max HPS: 9.79
Dissipation: 3.5
Capacity: 65
Sustained DPS: 4.96

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 35.6, or 55% of the cap, and it takes 10.17 seconds to cool that to zero.


MAD-IIC
- cXL 350
- 9x cMPL
- 28x cDHS
- TC2

Alpha: 63
Heat: 58.9 (with ghost heat, 42.75 without)
Max DPS: 16.15
Max HPS: 15.10 (with ghost heat, 10.96 without)
Dissipation: 4.7
Capacity: 77
Sustained DPS: 5.02 (with ghost heat, 6.93 without)

The Net Heat after a single alpha is 54.67 with ghost heat (36.17 if you stagger-fire), or 71% (47%) of the cap, and it takes 11.63 seconds (7.70 seconds) to cool that to zero.

The relative performance of the Clan ‘Mech compared against the IS ‘Mech is:
Alpha: +14.55%
Max DPS: +16.5%
Sustained DPS: +1% with ghost heat, +40% if staggered.

Discussion:
This is a repeat of what we saw with the Heavies, except the IS does not possess any advantage in alpha or max DPS. The Clan option once again has the ability to poke comparably to the IS one or thrash it on the push. There is enough cooling overhead to use a larger TC as well, closing the range gap with the IS option.

Once again, though, even the Medium-Long Clan option is out-cooling the IS Medium-Close option.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 12 August 2018 - 04:09 PM.

[Korz]

So it would seem to me to fix the issue would be to simply quirk IS laser mechs to cool a little more efficiently. They already tend to have more internals and armor so adding in some cooling efficiency for them would be easier then screwing up all lasers for every mech.

And would be far easier to tweak and fix then messing with lasers as a class.

Or did I miss something?

[Y E O N N E]

Korz, on 12 August 2018 - 06:25 AM, said:

So it would seem to me to fix the issue would be to simply quirk IS laser mechs to cool a little more efficiently. They already tend to have more internals and armor so adding in some cooling efficiency for them would be easier then screwing up all lasers for every mech.

And would be far easier to tweak and fix then messing with lasers as a class.

Or did I miss something?

It depends entirely on what direction PGI wants the game to go in, and options include (but are not limited to):

1. Reducing damage, duration, and/or heat efficiency on Clan lasers so builds more closely align with IS,

2. Buffing the dissipation on IS DHS and then buffing some of the IS lasers in cooldown or damage (ERML CD to 3.5 seconds, LPL damage to 11, etc.) to allow the IS to use DPS as compensation for the lack of alpha power.

3. Buffing IS armor across the board instead of on a handful of 'Mechs, leaving the weapons hot and weak and having the IS rely on sheer tanking power to give their weapons enough time to work.

Lots of options.

Personally, I am a fan of Option 2, since I think TTK is getting too long and because that would feel the best to play for both sides. PGI's current stance seems to align more with Option No. 1, though, and they seem to be of the opinion that TTK is still too short.

I will also say that there is an elephant in the room regarding XL engines. You can see above that the most competitive IS chassis on paper remains the BLK-7-KNT with an XL engine equipped, but most 'Mechs cannot spread damage as well as a Black Knight and are thus severely disadvantaged when using an XL. I don't really mind XLs exploding, but something really ought to be done about having some durability perks associated with equipping an XL. Barring that, IS XL behaving like cXL would be a simple enough solution.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 12 August 2018 - 11:12 AM.

[Nicodemus Rosse]

Been away from the game a bit due to life stuff, but I listened to the podcast yesterday and had a thought I'd like to hear feedback on from more experienced players.

What if, rather than quirking specific chassis or making global changes to weapon damage, range, or heat, something conceptually midway between ghost heat and energy draw were applied? Specifically, I'm thinking about something that downgrades the damage output on lasers, but only when a bunch are firing at the same time.

You'd get an alert in the MechLab like you do for ghost heat, but it'd be something like "Warning: This loadout may exceed your BattleMech's power transfer capacity. Firing multiple energy weapons and/or charging Gauss Rifles simultaneously will reduce the power output of the weapons overall."

Here's the logic:

Firing a PPC or laser, or charging a Gauss Rifle, pulls power from the engine and power management system, and less is available. Your 'Mech will still fire the lasers, but they won't get as much power and their damage output (and theoretically heat) will be lower. The power output of a laser directly correlates to the amount of energy in the beam; if you cut the power to a BattleMech laser it can be used to paint targets for artillery fire (happened in the novels). A PPC bolt would carry less energy as well. For the Gauss Rifle, technically it ought to prolong the charge-up time so that it sounds like it's charging but doesn't actually start until the end of the beam duration for lasers, OR lower the muzzle velocity a bit and therefore reduce the damage (because they're a kinetic weapon, so a slower round means less damage; in one of the novels firing one off reduced the energy in the 'Mech for a moment, like a mini-brownout).

The mechanic could literally work just like ghost heat, but instead of "firing X at once means +Y heat" it applies "firing X at once means -Y damage."

I know theoretically this was the idea behind energy draw, but the energy draw system as I understood it was just ghost heat: For each X damage your volley deals above Y, you get an extra half a heat point added to your heat for that volley. Also, it applied to autocannons and missiles which is...well, triggering those expends propellant, not megawatts of energy from the power plant.

Pros:

- Uses a mechanic similar to one already implemented, not hard to understand

- Makes sense for the fluff

- Allows devs to directly cap alpha damage output for boated weapons and weapon combinations, in a way that's a bit harder to minmax your way around; all you can really do is increase stare time and fire multiple groups or chain fire

- Keeps individual weapons viable when used in small enough groups

- If you apply it to the HGR such that two HGRs trigger the overload on each other, you can cap dual HGR pinpoint damage OR require a significantly longer charge-up ramp before they deal full damage.

- Decouples damage output from cooling measures, so cool shots don't bump up your alpha above the cap, and extra heat sinks don't counter the way they do for ghost heat

- Engine size doesn't mean an increase in capacity the way it does with heat sinks (you'd think it might, but it doesn't necessarily mean the overall power system changes—it's not like you can bump up the engine size to get more energy hardpoints currently)

- Could theoretically replace ghost heat entirely for energy & Gauss weapons

- Specific chassis could be quirked to get around it for certain signature weapons or loadouts

- Can be tailored to Clan or IS weapon platforms independently

- "Clan lasers are so powerful that warriors must take care to avoid overtaxing 'Mech power relays during sustained alpha strikes, a problem encountered less frequently in the Inner Sphere." sounds better than "we are nerfing your gunz" and isn't obviously counter to "Clan weapons are smaller, lighter, more powerful, longer-ranged, and run cooler" which is kind of what the Clans were for in lore.

Cons:

- Someone will just hate this idea so much

- ?

[Eisenhorne]

I agree with your conclusions, Yeonne. I just wish they'd go with Option 3 you listed... I like the idea of IS being tankier, with lower damage output. Keep the factions different.

[Viking Yelling]

Quote

TL;DR: Clan builds empirically run COLDER with BIGGER ALPHAS and LONGER RANGE

I've looked this up before. it's mostly because IS has the same damage to heat ratios and IS heatsinks take up more space, ie, cant mount more of them.


There's literally tons of options for changing Energy weapon competition, but I think PGI has a focus on exclusively reducing Clan laser Alpha. I don't like it, I don't think it particularly requires it as an incentive for the weapon systems value, and Alpha/DPS combos are technically better in most cases. I'm sure PGI is sincere in their concern for the game, but why with all this mulberry bush business.

[Y E O N N E]

Nicodemus Rosse, on 13 August 2018 - 12:55 AM, said:

Been away from the game a bit due to life stuff, but I listened to the podcast yesterday and had a thought I'd like to hear feedback on from more experienced players.

What if, rather than quirking specific chassis or making global changes to weapon damage, range, or heat, something conceptually midway between ghost heat and energy draw were applied? Specifically, I'm thinking about something that downgrades the damage output on lasers, but only when a bunch are firing at the same time.

You'd get an alert in the MechLab like you do for ghost heat, but it'd be something like "Warning: This loadout may exceed your BattleMech's power transfer capacity. Firing multiple energy weapons and/or charging Gauss Rifles simultaneously will reduce the power output of the weapons overall."

~snip~

Cons:

- Someone will just hate this idea so much

- ?

Speaking entirely for myself here:

• I do not believe alpha strikes are a problem or need shrinking in the first place
  
• Your solution does not resolve the primary issue I am raising in the OP, that the Clans have such dramatically superior cooling that they will out-DPS the IS even if you compel them to use smaller sized alpha strikes
  
• If we are forced into a DPS meta (which we are already in, by the way), then the lasers just get cast off in favor of ballistics and missiles
  
• BattleTech gets the fundamentals of powerplants all wrong; powerplants cannot spike generation well at all, which is why you need to bank it up in a capacitor; as such, what should really happen is all of your cooldowns are increased if you fire a volley whose total draw during recharge exceeds what the reactor can generate

Eisenhorne, on 13 August 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

I agree with your conclusions, Yeonne. I just wish they'd go with Option 3 you listed... I like the idea of IS being tankier, with lower damage output. Keep the factions different.

The issue with that approach is that we end up with a system where the Clans have an advantage that is always there at all times at any point during a match where the IS have a finite advantage that requires teamwork (or bad teamwork on the other side) to actually use, lest the team run out of armor before it figures it out. It's not unlike AMS shielding from LRMs, where you have a finite amount time to take advantage of the shield before it runs out of ammunition.

Viking Yelling, on 13 August 2018 - 03:41 PM, said:

I've looked this up before. it's mostly because IS has the same damage to heat ratios and IS heatsinks take up more space, ie, cant mount more of them.

Yes. ER Mediums are identical, ER Smalls are a little over a tenth of a point stronger, ER Larges are about two-tenths of a point stronger. Mediums are almost identical to Clan Medium Pulse, and IS Medium Pulse are only one tenth of a point stronger.

The only ones that are much colder for the damage are Small, Small Pulse, and Large Pulse. The first two are pathetic in damage, the second is not good enough in damage for its weight and that weight is so much that it eats into the DHS capacity needed to get the DPS.

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There's literally tons of options for changing Energy weapon competition, but I think PGI has a focus on exclusively reducing Clan laser Alpha. I don't like it, I don't think it particularly requires it as an incentive for the weapon systems value, and Alpha/DPS combos are technically better in most cases. I'm sure PGI is sincere in their concern for the game, but why with all this mulberry bush business.

No argument, here. We are currently in a more DPS-oriented meta; the laser-vomit builds are still strong, but they do not dominate. Dominating right now is the MCII-B with the UAC/30 spam, the ANH running similar, and HGauss with a side of MRM/ATM/LRM spam from lighter chassis. MGs for Lights.

Again speaking for myself, I do not think TTK needs to be further increased. At least, not the passive TTK (aka damage out vs. hitpoints). Instead, I think weapons need to be a little bit more lethal, and TTK should be increased by increasing players' options for mitigating or evading damage (AKA, more agility, more speed).

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 14 August 2018 - 11:46 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 August 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

The issue with that approach is that we end up with a system where the Clans have an advantage that is always there at all times at any point during a match where the IS have a finite advantage that requires teamwork (or bad teamwork on the other side) to actually use, lest the team run out of armor before it figures it out. It's not unlike AMS shielding from LRMs, where you have a finite amount time to take advantage of the shield before it runs out of ammunition.

True, and I do understand what you mean, but consider how good that advantage is at times when IS presses it correctly. Annihilators, Roughnecks, Victors, and other heavily quirked close range powerhouses are things that make the clanners crap themselves if they get close enough.

Mechs like the Top Dog, running laservomit with enough structure quirks so it can overheat itself and survive (unlike a hellbringer) give IS additional burst DPS through laservomit that clanners just can't emulate, because they'd die. Like, I can actually pull 4 50 pt alphas off in quick succession with a Top Dog if I'm willing to use a coolshot and eat some structure damage. Clanners cannot do that.

I just like how "different" they feel, even if armor and health is an advantage that can be "wasted" while extra range / damage is one that is always there.

[Viking Yelling]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 August 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

Yes. ER Mediums are identical, ER Smalls are a little over a tenth of a point stronger, ER Larges are about two-tenths of a point stronger. Mediums are almost identical to Clan Medium Pulse, and IS Medium Pulse are only one tenth of a point stronger.

The only ones that are much colder for the damage are Small, Small Pulse, and Large Pulse. The first two are pathetic in damage, the second is not good enough in damage for its weight and that weight is so much that it eats into the DHS capacity needed to get the DPS.

so why these attempts at drastically changing Clan lasers? As with Tarogato's points, there was only initially a small change mentioned. I know PGI wants to reduce Clan laser alpha damage, but It really isn't the weapon system that's broken. Maybe in need of some small, purposeful maintenance, but the problem is more inherent with Mechs gulty of Hardpoint spam. This is true for every type of mech with a build that is above the power curve or over powered.

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No argument, here. We are currently in a more DPS-oriented meta; the laser-vomit builds are still strong, but they do not dominate. Dominating right now is the MCII-B with the UAC/30 spam, the ANH running similar, and HGauss with a side of MRM/ATM/LRM spam from lighter chassis. MGs for Lights.

Ironically, This is the type of Chain-fire Meta that PGI says they want.(only with balistic weapons) Jagermech w/ AC2 spam, HBKIIC with 4 AC2/LB2 ect.

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Again speaking for myself, I do not think TTK needs to be further increased. At least, not the passive TTK (aka damage out vs. hitpoints). Instead, I think weapons need to be a little bit more lethal, and TTK should be increased by increasing players' options for mitigating or evading damage (AKA, more agility, more speed).

Definitely not. Being in a Mech should feel like being in a mech. But that works both ways. Over buff mobility and we will be playing Call of Duty in less than a month. I havent played a Heavy IS assault in a while, only my Victor. My Clan assaults feel under mobile though. Making Mobility a problem for both factions.

[MechaBattler]

Seems like nerfing clan dubs would be the change to implement. Not internal engine dubs. So as to leave mechs with low tonnage/space less effected.

[Viking Yelling]

MechaBattler, on 15 August 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

Seems like nerfing clan dubs would be the change to implement. Not internal engine dubs. So as to leave mechs with low tonnage/space less effected.

Under what relevancy? Clans are supposed to have better heat-sinks through available slots. Making them less efficient removes that entire purpose.

[Y E O N N E]

Viking Yelling, on 14 August 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

so why these attempts at drastically changing Clan lasers? As with Tarogato's points, there was only initially a small change mentioned. I know PGI wants to reduce Clan laser alpha damage, but It really isn't the weapon system that's broken. Maybe in need of some small, purposeful maintenance, but the problem is more inherent with Mechs gulty of Hardpoint spam. This is true for every type of mech with a build that is above the power curve or over powered.

Well, I'm not the one changing the lasers, PGI is. And from what PGI has said, they think the Clan volleys are too efficient compared to the IS ones. They are technically right, I just don't agree that nerfing the Clan lasers is the way to go; I'd much rather increase the efficiency of the IS ones.

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Definitely not. Being in a Mech should feel like being in a mech. But that works both ways. Over buff mobility and we will be playing Call of Duty in less than a month. I havent played a Heavy IS assault in a while, only my Victor. My Clan assaults feel under mobile though. Making Mobility a problem for both factions.

There is zero to no danger of this game feeling anything like CoD.

[MechaBattler]

So no balance then? Because making one side flat out better at a core mechanic of the game is imbalanced. I guess it's just better that PGI keep nerfing the weapons rather than the dubs. It's going down one way or another. I'm simply suggesting that nerfing the dubs might be the better way to address that.

[Y E O N N E]

MechaBattler, on 16 August 2018 - 08:14 AM, said:

So no balance then? Because making one side flat out better at a core mechanic of the game is imbalanced. I guess it's just better that PGI keep nerfing the weapons rather than the dubs. It's going down one way or another. I'm simply suggesting that nerfing the dubs might be the better way to address that.

Or, like I suggested in the third post in this thread, they can buff IS dubs instead.