15 replies to this topic

[AedanCousland]

So as I understand it, ECM cuts the targeting range of opponents by two thirds. So if their range is 800 meters, they need to come within 200 meters to target me. So let's say there's two of us side by side, does that mean the enemy needs to come within 50 meters to target me and so on and so forth? Or does it not stack?

[TheCaptainJZ]

No, it gives you a bubble of 90 meters (without skills, but I think the patch just changed this or will change this range higher). It doesn't prevent locks, just slows them down. To be honest, I don't recall the exact stats of ECM anymore since the last change. ECM doesn't stack, or none of it's effects ever have before, but overlapping ECMs will work if one of them is jammed or countered.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 19 August 2018 - 04:38 PM.

[AedanCousland]

TheCaptainJZ, on 19 August 2018 - 04:37 PM, said:

No, it gives you a bubble of 90 meters (without skills, but I think the patch just changed this or will change this range higher). It doesn't prevent locks, just slows them down. To be honest, I don't recall the exact stats of ECM anymore since the last change. ECM doesn't stack, or none of it's effects ever have before, but overlapping ECMs will work if one of them is jammed or countered.

Oh OK because the Wiki clearly states it reduces target lock by three quarters?

Quote

When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM:


Enemy Mechs will have to come within 1/4 the normal distance (200 m instead of 800 m, by default) for hidden Mechs to show up on their battlegrid and HUD.

It does go onto say that it also slows down Target lock as well. So this info is incorrect?

Edited by AedanCousland, 19 August 2018 - 04:47 PM.

[Tier5ForLife]

I'd like a mech with TWO ECMs, one set on disrupt and one on to counter.

But then I also would like a left Ballistic torso for the Hellbringer.

Sorry for the ramble, I've had forums fights over ECM vs the BAP or Clan Probe. I've been told that not only do you never need both, they counteract each other.

So ECM makes little sense at times. However, the ECM skill nodes are good to have, that is supposed to decrease the range you can be seen or targeted.

With the LRM buffs, having ECM is back also, lol.

[Roland09]

LikeUntoBuddha, on 19 August 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

Sorry for the ramble, I've had forums fights over ECM vs the BAP or Clan Probe. I've been told that not only do you never need both, they counteract each other.

On a mech without ECM, having a BAP/CAP counters the nearest 1 enemy ECM. So, in this regard, a BAP/CAP acts like an ECM set to counter-mode (I don't know the range atm, however).

On a mech with ECM and BAP/CAP installed, this automatic counter-mode provided by the active probe is lost. If this mech's pilot wants to counter enemy ECM, he will have to switch his own ECM to counter-mode, thereby becoming visible to normal enemy sensors at usual targeting range. The other bonuses provided by active probes (for example, the boost to targeting range and target info gathering speed) will remain.

This is what is meant by 'ECM counteracting BAP/CAP when installed on the same mech'.

[AedanCousland]

None of which answer my question.Please don't hijack my thread for your own questions.

[Tier5ForLife]

Roland09, on 19 August 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

On a mech without ECM, having a BAP/CAP counters the nearest 1 enemy ECM. So, in this regard, a BAP/CAP acts like an ECM set to counter-mode (I don't know the range atm, however).

On a mech with ECM and BAP/CAP installed, this automatic counter-mode provided by the active probe is lost. If this mech's pilot wants to counter enemy ECM, he will have to switch his own ECM to counter-mode, thereby becoming visible to normal enemy sensors at usual targeting range. The other bonuses provided by active probes (for example, the boost to targeting range and target info gathering speed) will remain.

This is what is meant by 'ECM counteracting BAP/CAP when installed on the same mech'.

This is what I meant that gets complicated.



Here is what it looks likes and what it says. One of the many things that bother me about this game is that nowhere do they explain anything to you.

I'd send a PM to Tesunie or Koniving

[TheCaptainJZ]

Skills also affect the ranges. It is rather complicated.

ECM is meant to slow down locks. It doesn't actually reduce sensor ranges.

EDIT: By this I was thinking along these lines: ECM doesn't change the sensor range of an enemy mech outside ECM. Detecting things from outside into the ECM field is affected though. Not sure why my brain thought to say mechs outside ECM still have full sensors to other mechs outside ECM. I was at work so probably not thinking straight.

It works as a protective bubble around the ECM mech so mechs inside the ECM affect are harder to target and lock onto. This includes the paperdoll info.

Well, mechs inside an ECM's range will have their sensors cut off (maybe this is the reduced range). I often forget this part because you have to be so close to be within the radius. The way it used to work is you were completely cut off from your allies sensor data. You could still target enemies very near you, but none of that was shared with your team. Now, I'm not sure it's so absolute. You used to completely disappear from your allies' battle grids too, as far as the little carrot above your head but that was added back I'm pretty sure.

But no, the range reduction was never stacked and I'm fairly certain it never would be. Again, skills can adjust the radius a bit on ECM and on sensor range but not by huge amounts.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 20 August 2018 - 03:56 PM.

[salkeee]

AedanCousland, on 20 August 2018 - 02:14 AM, said:

None of which answer my question.Please don't hijack my thread for your own questions.

No it does not stack.

[AedanCousland]

TheCaptainJZ, on 20 August 2018 - 09:55 AM, said:

Skills also affect the ranges. It is rather complicated.

ECM is meant to slow down locks. It doesn't actually reduce sensor ranges. It works as a protective bubble around the ECM mech so mechs inside the ECM affect are harder to target and lock onto. This includes the paperdoll info.

Well, mechs inside an ECM's range will have their sensors cut off (maybe this is the reduced range). I often forget this part because you have to be so close to be within the radius. The way it used to work is you were completely cut off from your allies sensor data. You could still target enemies very near you, but none of that was shared with your team. Now, I'm not sure it's so absolute. You used to completely disappear from your allies' battle grids too, as far as the little carrot above your head but that was added back I'm pretty sure.

But no, the range reduction was never stacked and I'm fairly certain it never would be. Again, skills can adjust the radius a bit on ECM and on sensor range but not by huge amounts.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer, however, the following is from the skill tree:

Enhanced ECM Systems 1 [also applies to 2]

Decreases the Max range at which an ECM-protected 'Mech can be targeted, and decreases the Cooldown Duration required before Stealth Armor can be re-activated.

Current value:

ECM Target Range Reduction +45%

New value:

ECM Target Range Reduction +25.5%

I've removed the values for Stealth armor since they aren't relevant to the topic. First off, this explicitly says target range reduction, not target time increase. Secondly, why is the value going down rather than up? If the skill decreases the Max range at which an ECM-protected 'Mech can be targeted, surely the value should go up? I'm confused.

[TheCaptainJZ]

That is pertaining to allied mechs within an ECM bubble. With the skill on, the allies within the 90 meters are not targetable by enemies within in their sensor ranges to a point. The smaller value tightens that range. So for example, Mech A has ECM and B is an ally within that ECM bubble. Mech X is an enemy mech that is 300 m away from B. Max sensor range is 800 m. With no skills, mech B would only be detectable by mech X within 45% * 800 or 360 m. Mech B is 300 m away so it can be targeted (but locks should be slower). Now with the skills in place, the range is 25.5% * 800 or 204 m so Mech B is now not targetable by Mech X. This is what I indirectly described as being able to target mechs very near you, but not exactly how I remember it working. This example is if mech X is not inside the ECM bubble. My recollection is if it was inside the bubble (it was 180 m back then). Previously, you were not able to target a mech inside the bubble at all unless countered by tag or narc or the ECM was countered by BAP or counter ECM mode or hit by a PPC (disabled for 4 seconds). Edit: These counters are still all in place.

I just figured out the numbers above just now so if someone has better information, feel free to correct me. I have not kept up with game nuances in the last couple years.

Edit:
I don't know, that still doesn't sound right.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 20 August 2018 - 02:21 PM.

[Chris Lowrey]

ECM Target Range Reduction refers to the range at which a 'Mech is detectable for a sensor lock.

Normally, 'Mechs can be detected once they enter into sensor range. (800 meters base.) But ECM grants a reduction to this value which means that they are only detectable under a certain percentile of a targets sensor range depending on skill tree investment. (So a 50% reduction would mean an enemy would only be able to detect you once you reach 50% of its max sensor range. 400 meters base.)

This only refers to the base detection. You can be under sensor lock and still be under the other benefits of ECM (the eyeball icon in the hud.) When you are under the influence of friendly ECM, there is a 50% increase in Missile lock on time.

[TheCaptainJZ]

I think this is the first time a dev has posted in the New Player section. Kudos to Chris!

I have also added an edit to one of my earlier posts to clarify my line of thinking (which really wasn't useful).

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 20 August 2018 - 03:59 PM.

[AedanCousland]

Chris Lowrey, on 20 August 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

ECM Target Range Reduction refers to the range at which a 'Mech is detectable for a sensor lock.

Normally, 'Mechs can be detected once they enter into sensor range. (800 meters base.) But ECM grants a reduction to this value which means that they are only detectable under a certain percentile of a targets sensor range depending on skill tree investment. (So a 50% reduction would mean an enemy would only be able to detect you once you reach 50% of its max sensor range. 400 meters base.)

This only refers to the base detection. You can be under sensor lock and still be under the other benefits of ECM (the eyeball icon in the hud.) When you are under the influence of friendly ECM, there is a 50% increase in Missile lock on time.

Thank you for taking the time to answer.

[Koniving]

This is late as I was on hiatus. Expanding on what Chris said:

The increase in lock time is only for acquiring the lock. Once the lock is acquired they can fire all they want until the lock is broken. But they must also maintain the lock to maintain the homing nature of said missiles.

There are nodes to help make the lock last after losing it and nodes to break the lock faster, too.

Some equipment can soft-counter and hard-counter (to be honest my list of what does what is out of date so I won't get into it). Just know that at one point different PPC-class would have what seemed to be different levels of countering for different lengths of time. Different equipment also counters in different ways.

For example Artemis can only counter the lock speed reduction of ECM. (soft counter)

TAG can counter the lock speed and allow an ECM user (or those hidden by the ECM user) to be targeted outside of the reduced detection range that an enemy ECM imposes, but once the ECM user is no longer touched by the laser the lock is (or was) instantly lost, meaning tag's additional time to keep a target locked after losing it doesn't work against ECM. (soft counter+)

A UAV will allow an ECM user to be targeted, but will not counter any lock delays and locks are instantly lost if the ECM user goes out of sight of the UAV (think of the UAV as a camera with a range of 800 meters down [and yes I mean down, if you're on top of the UAV you're invisible to it, if you're on level with it you're invisible to it) and the horizontal range depends on how high up it is (the lower to the ground the UAV is the smaller the horizontal square of vision is...and yes it is a rectangular prism of view and not a cone).

NARC on the other hand will completely disable the ECM (Hard counter) until the beacon is out of power or until a fellow ECM user comes within 90 meters (which instantly kills the NARC).

[Horseman]

Artemis no longer affects the lock-on speed, Kon.