16 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

Clan XLs are obviously better than IS XLs, but why are Clan STDs the same as IS STDs? (I wonder how many will take the low hanging fruit?)

Shouldn't Clan STDs be better? Otherwise there's hardly a point for them. They could just focus on there XLs which would make them cheaper, etc.

[Mechteric]

TheArisen, on 15 October 2015 - 12:48 AM, said:

Clan XLs are obviously better than IS XLs, but why are Clan STDs the same as IS STDs? (I wonder how many will take the low hanging fruit?)

Shouldn't Clan STDs be better? Otherwise there's hardly a point for them. They could just focus on there XLs which would make them cheaper, etc.

Better is a relative term. Keep in mind that in the board game if you lose a torso with a Clan XL, you take 2 engine hits, which spikes up your heat by +10 per round, which is a lot. MWO is basically ignoring this potential balance point.

Also, XL engines cost more CBills and BattleValue, so that is also taken into consideration when balancing forces.

[RedDragon]

Do they even use STDs anymore? Lore-wise, they improved the Starleague XL engine so there wasn't any need for improving STDs. That's why Clans don't use any STDs in their front line units.

[TheArisen]

RedDragon, on 15 October 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

Do they even use STDs anymore? Lore-wise, they improved the Starleague XL engine so there wasn't any need for improving STDs. That's why Clans don't use any STDs in their front line units.

I'm pretty sure the Turkina & Kingfisher have STD engines.

I suppose it makes sense they'd focus on making XL's better.

[Nightshade24]

TheArisen, on 15 October 2015 - 12:48 AM, said:

Clan XLs are obviously better than IS XLs, but why are Clan STDs the same as IS STDs? (I wonder how many will take the low hanging fruit?)

Shouldn't Clan STDs be better? Otherwise there's hardly a point for them. They could just focus on there XLs which would make them cheaper, etc.

No, why would Clan STD's be better?
STD's have been around for a long time and is basically perfected as a basic cheap model.
XL's is newer and was lost by the succesion wars that in a way forced the clans to exist and the IS to be so poor with technological stand points, the IS lost hundreds of years of possible development time to improve it but the clans had it the whole time/ SLDF.

The Clan XL isn't obviously better (at least for omnitech standpoint ... in battletech standpoint? it seems balanced considering most of these mechs have HUGE torsos ie hunchback IIC, Orion IIC, and very low engine cap for a mech like that ie Highlander IIC... I wouldn't mind some local balancing acts occurring here but not a blanket nerf... )


Why take a Clan STD over Clan XL? Well same reason you would take IS STD over Clan XL, Personally I do not find clan XL vs IS XL a big difference, Due to lack of trades however there is no advantage over an IS XL and Clan XL on paper. (I do well in most of my IS mechs with XL and it has to do with playstyle and the build of the mech... well stalker is excluded from this rule as well as atlas...)

Why STD over XL? STD is smaller.
On the Orion it lets you able to have duel Gauss rifle in the SAME torso. It saves you 4 crit slots and makes you more durable... you do NOT die if both ST's are gone and when 1 is gone you got NO penalty what so ever... it has it's place and reasons to exist.



However if you want to carry on the topic of engines in BT...

"Compact" engine is a design that basically gives you a even smaller engine, in a way, reverse XL engine. It is 3 slots only but is 50% heavier. very useful if you want to cram an AC 10 or an ER PPC into the CT of your mech... or for able to boat 5 gauss rifles on your annihilator and have room for ammo. It is also more durable due to being smaller.

"XXL" engine is a design that's basically XL+. ...
It's 1/3rd the weight of a standard engine but compared to an XL is double the ST slots... so 6 slots in ST for IS... 4 slots in ST's for Clan... It also produces a lot more heat to the point that even standing will produce heat and also more heat when turning or moving arms... PS: to kill an engine technically, you need to destroy 3 of it's slots... this is why the ST of an IS XL goes boom but barely the Clan one survives... this means that the clan XXL will still die to ST destruction...

The IS also got a XL/ Standard engine hybrid that can survive a ST lost but forgots it's name... there are also engines not even fusion based and thus all laser weapons do not work...

CapperDeluxe, on 15 October 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

Better is a relative term. Keep in mind that in the board game if you lose a torso with a Clan XL, you take 2 engine hits, which spikes up your heat by +10 per round, which is a lot. MWO is basically ignoring this potential balance point.

Also, XL engines cost more CBills and BattleValue, so that is also taken into consideration when balancing forces.

Well they kinda made a bigger nerf then +10 per round... erm... depends...

They made it lose 20% of it's engine heatsinks... which say if it's 10 in the engine... 2 heatsinks... so "+28" per round technically if I did math right?...in a way, 2 less DHS... oh wait I forgot. Engine heatsinks are 2.0 instead of 1.4's... soooooo "+40" per round... I did math right yes?...

it is bigger for mechs with more then 10 heatsinks in CT but less effective for those with less heatsinks in CT and it depends if the mech has many on the outside or the inside because it won't effect say the meta timberwolf but would butcher LRM timberwolfs...



The problem is in TT heat means more then "keep firing till you shutdown". at like 50% onwards you have a growin chance for ammo to explode and like a slight chance to shut down... You also move more and more slower... for eg at 60% to 70% you are worse at turning, acceleration and decceleration and speed by say 5%... 70% to 80% it's 10%... 80% to 90% and you are down to 20%... 90% to 100% is around 40%.... rough math for example but not the truth...

So being hotter then normal is much more of a negative then in MW: O...

I do hope heatscale in some form is added and the ties for ghost heat is loosened... But Clan XL's already got a penalty but I got no problem with clan BATTLEmechs getting this penalty as there 'ballance' of fixed engines and somecases obselete engine numbers isn't a problem...

[Karl Streiger]

TheArisen, on 16 October 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure the Turkina & Kingfisher have STD engines.

The Kingfisher and the Stooping Hawk both OmniMechs use STD engines
And they are really hard to kill in comparison to other ClanMechs using XL engine.

Of course some second line BattleMechs use STD engines too - including the wicked Warhammer IIC.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

My beloved Stone Rhino (Behemoth) is running on a STD.

[TheArisen]

Marack Drock, on 16 October 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

Am I the only one that chuckles at this abbreviation on these forums? I mean seriously... how can I not?

Lol I hinted at this in my OP.

To be honest, when I made this thread I was only thinking of this game.

[WonderSparks]

Far as I can tell, Clan STD and IS STD are equal because, frankly, they're "standard", not advanced, that type of thing.
Just like Clan and IS standard armor/structure are basically the same thing. Same weight, same "space" (or rather lack of eating up crits), the works.

Besides... do we really need more reasons for certain types of people to cry "Clams OP"?

[TheArisen]

WonderSparks, on 17 October 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

Far as I can tell, Clan STD and IS STD are equal because, frankly, they're "standard", not advanced, that type of thing.
Just like Clan and IS standard armor/structure are basically the same thing. Same weight, same "space" (or rather lack of eating up crits), the works.

Besides... do we really need more reasons for certain types of people to cry "Clams OP"?

I certainly wasn't advocating buffing the Clans. I think I was being too logical with this.

[TheArisen]

I'm just thinking "out loud" but it seems plausible that they could've made a std engine that weighed as much as the IS Light Fusion. Obviously that wouldn't be balanced but if we think is realistic terms (in universe) the clans should have more goodies.

[Karl Streiger]

TheArisen, on 20 October 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

I'm just thinking "out loud" but it seems plausible that they could've made a std engine that weighed as much as the IS Light Fusion. Obviously that wouldn't be balanced but if we think is realistic terms (in universe) the clans should have more goodies.

They shouldn't have any goodies at all. Why should they?

[Tarl Cabot]

The IS XL engine that acts like a Clan XL engine is the LFE (Light Fusion Engine) and it was 3/4s the weight of a standard engine.

For the boardgame, having engine parts in more than one place in a game that used dice to determine hit/miss and location provided a greater opportunity to destroy said mech with 3 engine crits.

With MWO though, with the pinpoint accuracy and no engine crits, the loss of a side torso for an IS XL engine should not destroy a mech. With the current penalty setup that IS mech with only one side torso gone should have a higher heat penalty than the Clan XL. To facilitate that a player would need to add case (give IS players a reason to really use case). The LFE would has a heat penalty that lies between the IS and Clan XL.

And speed is also life in MWO. The other aspects of the heatscale needs to be added. Do not need all the thresholds but 2-3 thresholds where a mech slows down and becomes less agile. Leave the ammo explosions possibilities at max threshold. And a hardcap on Heatsink. Would not need to be at 30.

Consider the environment, MWO is not a dice rolling/boardgame, there is no asymmetry forces, ie Clan Star+ 1 or 2 Points vs IS company, no actual engine crits (anything that actual affects engine part in the CT).

FASA creators have admitted that Clan tech were overpowering. It took them introducing the Dark Ages in an attempt to wipe the slate clean, in order to bring things into line. The first series of playtesting of the Clans had they using their tactics but with Star League era mechs. The results ended with Clans barely getting a foothold in the Innersphere. Again, boardgame, dice rolling, three possible locations instead of one location for more opportunities to take out the engine. They went back to the drawing table, the introduction of Clan tech to make the asymmetry combat work, as well as the story line.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 20 October 2015 - 06:12 AM.

[TheArisen]

I'm not talking about in MWO or in TT. I was talking about a logical progression as if it were RL, where balance isn't important. I'm not advocating a buff or anything, this is a completely hypothetical discussion.

[Tarl Cabot]

TheArisen, on 20 October 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

I'm not talking about in MWO or in TT. I was talking about a logical progression as if it were RL, where balance isn't important. I'm not advocating a buff or anything, this is a completely hypothetical discussion.

How better though? Have to remember the number of mechs that left with the Star League forces, and what Clan mechs get the standard engines. And it was easier to produce standard engines. And those mechs that used standard engines, as omni's became available were reassigned to garrison forces, not front line forces. As for progression, that would be part of the lore seen in Technical Readouts, where engines from one mfg would have +/- but bringing them into gameplay would wreck havoc. Clans turned the Star League XL engine into the Clan XL engine.

As for the engines, they are fusion engines that provide power to all the other components which produces additional heat. They are basically the battery/alternators. There would be constraints on what can be done with them and that wraps around the containment and shielding. Which is one of the issues I have with MWO, the light mechs are actually too small while the other mechs are too large.