28 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

In this proposal, I will attempt to address 2 things at once:
1: IS Gauss Rifle weighing more
2: Perceived Clan Rifle + Laser Alpha Damage

Proposed Change:
While charging up, Gauss Rifle gets a glowing charged up effect.
While charging, armor of the gauss rifle carrying component is reduced to zero (if armor still exists)
Gauss rifle weapon explosion effect removed.

Concept:
Basically, it never made any sense to me that gauss rifle would explode like ammo when crit-ed. When a hunk of metal has no energy flowing through it, it's just a hunk of metal.

My change will address that. Your rifle won't just randomly explode along with half of your mech anymore. Will you still lose your weapon if it's hit? Yes, but you will just lose your weapon as any other weapon systems.

Glow effect, basically, your rifle can only be crit and explode IF it was hit during charge-up. This effect may happen REGARDLESS of armor status. Even with full armor status, being hit while charge up will assign a crit chance as if the component is unarmored. Thus, you may still lose half your mech with full armor if your rifle exploded while charging up.

However, as soon as the charge up and projectile fire are over, armor is restored and explosion damage no longer exists.

This will force more de-sync fire from Clan Alpha damage because if you charge up while receiving return fire, you will end up with a lot more damage than currently. Basically, a gauss rifle mech can be suppressed (with rapid fire weapons especially), and would require way more strategic positioning and timing to use.

(the graphical effect is basically a huge "hit me" sign, so proceed with caution)

Now, IS gauss have the added effect of being always having 5 armor during charge up (unless armor is less than 5, in which case, it will just use whatever available) so that they can take more beatings while charge up. The added safety net will justify the heavier weight and goes in line with the philosophy of robust Inner Sphere mechs.

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Discussion:

I like people to stay on topic regarding THIS idea alone pros/cons. Comments such as "no IS charge up time!" or your own idea of how this should be done is NOT interested at all, and frankly, explored over 9000 times already. If you want to insist on your not very original idea, use another thread, start another thread, don't really care... just not here.

I just want to here pros/cons/comments/discussions on my idea alone. Nothing else. If you can't think of anything before adding your reply, don't reply at all. I will report and downvote all irrelevant replies.

Have fun!

[The6thMessenger]

So basically, you are only vulnerable to gauss explosion while charging up your gauss?

So why would anyone bring gauss? That means there's constantly around 1.5s of vulnerability that could destroy your gauss with concentrated fire.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 19 August 2018 - 03:37 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

So... the Gauss rifle magically causes the armor which physically covers its section to not exist while charging? Ghost armor?

Ghost armor?

How in the entirety of known space does that even make sense?

*edit- Adding more mechanics that cannot immediately be justified at first glance would not do any favors for the game. Because of the importance of armor, it would render the whole weapon class instantly useless compared to ACs of similar tonnage, it would frustrate new and veteran players alike, and... well, it's silly. There are 'Mechs with weapon bay doors in the game already. This is basically forced weapon bay doors, but without the doors, or the armor.

Edited by WrathOfDeadguy, 19 August 2018 - 03:41 PM.

[Prototelis]

You should stick to healing hands..

[VonBruinwald]

I've always felt PPC's should have the charge up and Gauss should be insta-fire.

Gauss already has the trade-off of weight and ammo compared to their typically paired PPC's (and charge was implemented to break up this pairing).

It would also allow a bit of variance between L/Std/H/ER PPC's ((more damage>longer Charge)

[The6thMessenger]

If you made it so that Gauss Rifles only explode while being charged up, with regards to armor, I might consider.

In fact, it would be rather prudent to just give Gauss Rifles heat.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 19 August 2018 - 04:36 PM.

[panzer1b]

Im gonna be brutally honest, this is a stupid idea.

All it will do is make gauss be exclusively used by some ECM extreme range snipers, and thats about it. Any mech that is being shot at all (and any half decent player will take some hits here and there), is basically gonna have gauss explosions everywhere with this change.

That and as much as i hate gauss explosions, they are reasonably balanced and keep the GR as a very powerful weapon but one with actual drawbacks besides its high tonnage. Right now IS vs clam is also fairly balanced imo, since clam gauss almost always goes up when anything looks at your open ST, while IS gauss is actually sorta ST safe in mechs like the warhammer.

[Abaddun]

For crying out loud, what is it going to take to make people understand.

A. Mechanically, gauss rifle explosions are there to offset the advantage of inert ammunition. I think we can all agree that 2 tons of ammo cooking off is lot more painful then 1 gauss rifle.

B. The charge up mechanic is there to offset the fact the gauss rifle has a 2000 m/s velocity, which is practically instantaneous unless firing over extended ranges. You want someone with twitch reflexes plugging you before you can react? I've been there, it's not fun. The only thing I can suggest to improve quality of life of the gauss is to up the ammo per ton, because 10 slugs per ton is just killing my effective combat time.

Edited by Abaddun, 19 August 2018 - 05:08 PM.

[El Bandito]

If people wanna remove Gauss charge up, then in return Gauss velocity should be reduced to 700 m/s.

[Josh Seles]

I proposed this in the PTS forum section as well:
- Light Gauss: 6 second reload, 10 dmg per shot
- IS Gauss: 7 second reload, 14 tons each
- Clan Gauss: 8 second reload
- Heavy Gauss: 9 second reload
- all charge-ups removed

The numbers are open for debate, but the premise behind the suggestion stands: significantly longer reloads in exchange for charge-ups being removed.

This doesn't break stock builds, it's only partly a nerf, and narrows down the Clan advantage.
I'd consider dropping the charge-ups a decent buff.

Some people have mentioned that Clan Gauss has too much of an advantage over IS Gauss and those people have been asking for yet more nerfs and I've had enough with yet more nerfs. If IS Gauss is too heavy, logically, just make IS Gauss 1 ton lighter. Simple.

We could justify it lore-wise with reverse-engineering C-Gauss and thus improving IS Gauss. Taking a little while to recharge all those capacitors and electromagnets seems reasonable and likely as well, at least to me. Really, lore and TT rules should be taking a back seat to making a good FPS game.

The recoil effect can stay for all I care. Gauss/PPC is ghost heated, so that combo is dead and the new PTS with low-capacity/high-dissipation heat system seems to be well-received, which just cements Gauss/PPC being dead even more: much easier to overheat. I'm desperately hoping the current PTS goes through. PLEASE let it go live.

Edited for formatting and better English.

Edited by Josh Seles, 19 August 2018 - 08:41 PM.

[Khobai]

Josh Seles, on 19 August 2018 - 08:22 PM, said:

The numbers are open for debate, but the premise behind the suggestion stands: significantly longer reloads in exchange for charge-ups being removed.

no one is gonna use Cgauss with an 8 second cooldown. lmao.

the biggest problem with gauss is that it generates almost no heat. they should just make gauss generate like 7-8 heat.

gauss generating very little heat is why it has always been broken in conjunction with energy weapons. because the low heat gives it natural synergy with high heat weapons like PPCs/lasers (PPCs not so much anymore lol).

the lack of heat is also why gauss will become an overpowered weapon if this 40 heat cap nonsense goes live. heavy gauss especially will become so gross that PGI will have to nerf it almost immediately.

yeah its not lore. but gauss was also a broken weapon in tabletop too. it should not be broken in MWO for the same reasons it was broken in tabletop. So just increase its heat.

if gauss is changed to generate a non-insignificant amount of heat, you can probably get rid of chargeup then too.

Edited by Khobai, 19 August 2018 - 09:15 PM.

[Akhri Mala]

razenWing, on 19 August 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

While charging up, Gauss Rifle gets a glowing charged up effect.
While charging, armor of the gauss rifle carrying component is reduced to zero (if armor still exists)

Having a shooter where the enemy gets a glowing "shoot me here" sign when looking at you is not good.

[kf envy]

razenWing, on 19 August 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

In this proposal, I will attempt to address 2 things at once:
1: IS Gauss Rifle weighing more
2: Perceived Clan Rifle + Laser Alpha Damage

Proposed Change:
While charging up, Gauss Rifle gets a glowing charged up effect.
While charging, armor of the gauss rifle carrying component is reduced to zero (if armor still exists)
Gauss rifle weapon explosion effect removed.

Concept:
Basically, it never made any sense to me that gauss rifle would explode like ammo when crit-ed. When a hunk of metal has no energy flowing through it, it's just a hunk of metal.

My change will address that. Your rifle won't just randomly explode along with half of your mech anymore. Will you still lose your weapon if it's hit? Yes, but you will just lose your weapon as any other weapon systems.

Glow effect, basically, your rifle can only be crit and explode IF it was hit during charge-up. This effect may happen REGARDLESS of armor status. Even with full armor status, being hit while charge up will assign a crit chance as if the component is unarmored. Thus, you may still lose half your mech with full armor if your rifle exploded while charging up.

However, as soon as the charge up and projectile fire are over, armor is restored and explosion damage no longer exists.

This will force more de-sync fire from Clan Alpha damage because if you charge up while receiving return fire, you will end up with a lot more damage than currently. Basically, a gauss rifle mech can be suppressed (with rapid fire weapons especially), and would require way more strategic positioning and timing to use.

(the graphical effect is basically a huge "hit me" sign, so proceed with caution)

Now, IS gauss have the added effect of being always having 5 armor during charge up (unless armor is less than 5, in which case, it will just use whatever available) so that they can take more beatings while charge up. The added safety net will justify the heavier weight and goes in line with the philosophy of robust Inner Sphere mechs.

--------

Discussion:

I like people to stay on topic regarding THIS idea alone pros/cons. Comments such as "no IS charge up time!" or your own idea of how this should be done is NOT interested at all, and frankly, explored over 9000 times already. If you want to insist on your not very original idea, use another thread, start another thread, don't really care... just not here.

I just want to here pros/cons/comments/discussions on my idea alone. Nothing else. If you can't think of anything before adding your reply, don't reply at all. I will report and downvote all irrelevant replies.

Have fun!

no just no

[Abaddun]

What if damage scaled based upon charge? A linear charge to damaged ratio going from -50% damage at no charge to +15% damage at max which could be 0.5S longer than the existing charge time.

[IIXxXII]

razenWing, on 19 August 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

Concept:
Basically, it never made any sense to me that gauss rifle would explode like ammo when crit-ed. When a hunk of metal has no energy flowing through it, it's just a hunk of metal.

AFAIK there are a bank of batteries or capacitors which contain energy utilized to power the gauss rifle. These explode when gauss remains in an uncharged state.

The charging effect and firing could be represented by a bank of super capacitors which provide the rapid discharge a high powered gauss rifle could require.

There could be two different types of energy storage present and that is represented by gauss rifles exploding even when in an uncharged state. Think of it like this. Lithium ion cells in a person's cellphone couldn't provide the rapid energy burst necessary to accelerate a projectile to high speeds. Likewise the type of fast energy discharged needed to generate high power electric fields quickly isn't the type of thing a person would want to keep charged all of the time and it would be more prone towards exploding, etc.

Edited by IIXxXII, 20 August 2018 - 04:04 AM.

[Vellron2005]

OP's idea - how about NO.

Gauss is way too powerful a weapon to only be vulnerable while charge-up. Also, the reason why it explodes (as opposed to it's ammo exploding), is that the gauss coils are constantly powered-up, (charge-up is a MWO exclusive), so basically you have a power reactor for the weapon. Their ammo however, has no propellant of it's own, so is non-explosive.

Historically, Gauss riffles were always explosive, that's the trade-off for the immense damage at long range.

I would support a visual glowing effect while charge up, but MWO's graphics are too old for that..

Edited by Vellron2005, 20 August 2018 - 04:47 AM.

[SFC174]

El Bandito, on 19 August 2018 - 08:19 PM, said:

If people wanna remove Gauss charge up, then in return Gauss velocity should be reduced to 700 m/s.

Ohh, I know, let's make velocity proportional to charge up time. Click and release, 500 m/s. Hold for 2 seconds, 1500 m/s. Like to see PGI code that one. Wouldn't want to play it

[Mister Glitchdragon]

Vellron2005, on 20 August 2018 - 04:22 AM, said:

the immense damage at long range.

LOL 15 points out to 660m. Out-ranged and out-damaged, for almost half the tonnage and crit-slots, by a pair of ERLLs that don't explode when you look at them funny and require no ammo.

[FupDup]

Mister Glitchdragon, on 20 August 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

LOL 15 points out to 660m. Out-ranged and out-damaged, for almost half the tonnage and crit-slots, by a pair of ERLLs that don't explode when you look at them funny and require no ammo.

There's this thing called heat, which is going to matter a lot more if the PTS low heat cap makes it to the live server.

Not to mention Ghost Heat making it impractical to just keep stacking more lasers past a certain point (i.e. just two ERLL on the Clan side with the main exception of the Supernova being able to make more than two work). Gauss comes in by letting you add considerably more damage to your alpha without perceptibly increasing your heat generation.

Edited by FupDup, 20 August 2018 - 10:57 AM.

[razenWing]

Vellron2005, on 20 August 2018 - 04:22 AM, said:

OP's idea - how about NO.

Gauss is way too powerful a weapon to only be vulnerable while charge-up. Also, the reason why it explodes (as opposed to it's ammo exploding), is that the gauss coils are constantly powered-up, (charge-up is a MWO exclusive), so basically you have a power reactor for the weapon. Their ammo however, has no propellant of it's own, so is non-explosive.

Historically, Gauss riffles were always explosive, that's the trade-off for the immense damage at long range.

I would support a visual glowing effect while charge up, but MWO's graphics are too old for that..

Since this has been brought up a few times, I will address the power-up mechanics. Obviously in a perpetually charged state, there shouldn't be a charge up or cooldown. So regardless of how it would work IRL, I am merely giving interpretation based on existing mechanics. My guess has always been that there is no additional battery, and why would there be when there's a fission reactor as the reactor core?

I assume space human figured out that keeping something forever in a volatile state is extremely dangerous, so they only charge the coil when they need to fire. That would be my interpretation. (and unlike modern tech, perhaps they figured out a way to fast charge, so without charge, it's as I assumed, just a hunk of metal.

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Now to address overall opinions, I appreciate at the least that most people are on topics, despite the hostility. It's just a proposed change, and anyone can give their opinions on it.

Maybe it's too harsh of a punishment to go from 80 to 0 armor as soon as a button is pressed, so perhaps a curved decrease like someone else suggested.

Under such pretense, we can actually add more interesting mechanics. Let's assume gauss charge works like this...

0 - 0.5 sec = charge up phase, 0.5 - 1.2 sec = applicable to fire, 1.2 - 2.5 = overcharge (unlock-able only with skills in extended charge)
armor change (roughly estimate)
0 = 100% 0.5 = 85% 0.7 = 60% 1 = 20% 1.2 = 10% 1.21 = 0% (as soon as you enter overcharge)

Overcharge give you extra 5 damage at the cost of completely 0 armor

IS works at the same scale, except baseline before overcharge is 5 armor, not 0. So the lowest, even at 10%, is 5 (assuming more than 5 armor remaining)

The proposed change is to re-interpret gauss rifle as a more situational weapon rather than a high alpha complement. It will further differentiate roles of gauss vs other ballistics. Like UAC double tap, there is more of a sense of risk/reward. (high velocity pinpoint vs possibility of being suppressed)

Anyways, conversation has been good. Keep up the good work and stay on topics.

Edited by razenWing, 20 August 2018 - 11:06 AM.