76 replies to this topic

[timff8]

Hello everyone,

I haven't played MWO in a long time. I got bored and wandered off to play World of Tanks. I'm thinking about coming back after reading about the Timber Wolf nerfs. This will finally give me a reason to play a Summoner, so why the hell not. It's my fave. Anywho, I wanted to talk about why I left, and why I felt WoT is a better game

PART 1: MY MECH IS A FAT ****

MWO made me happy to play because it let me return to playing with mechs I remember from MW2 and 3. However, when I played those games I was a kid and had no concept of actually playing well. It was just drive up to a mech, shoot it, and move on. Playing MWO I had to actually try. And boy, did I not like trying. The most egregious part of trying was trying to move my mech's fat corpse from place to place. Mechs in this game are... sedentary. Some medium mechs and all the lights are fine; they move quickly, they're responsive. Anything above that is like having bags of water softener salt tied to your ankles. I absolutely despise this. Every movement feels so deliberate, and so permanent, that I feel afraid to venture out, because if I do, it will take so long to get back into position that PGI will have release 4 new mechs for me by then.[/color]

PART 2: MY MECH CLINGS DESPERATELY TO LIFE

WoT is a fun game. The sweet spot in my opinion is around tiers 6 and 7, that's where tanks are strong enough to take a punch, but not so tough that it takes an avalanche of vaguely racist (it's a WWII game, it's gonna be racist) punches to bring them down. They also have enough firepower at those tiers to throw solid punches, but not so solid that they obliterate eachother in seconds like at low tiers. MWO is in the avalanche camp. Even medium mechs feel like they take so much firepower to bring down that it's obnoxious. Why is this a bad thing? Because I am only one mech. I am only one person. When the opponent adds torso twisting to their durability, it can take an eternity to claw away at what should be an easy kill buy tabletop standards.

PART 3: MY MECH IS STAPLED HORRIBLY TO THE GROUP

These two previous parts create the mechanic of the game that I most dislike: stay in the group, get the group to murderball the enemy murderball. Because mechs take so long to reposition, they can't afford to go out on their own. A misstep can mean they die, because not only are they incredibly slow to retreat, but terrain in MWO is often all-or-nothing; you're behind a giant rock or you're not. There's no such thing as concealment that you can use to hide yourself with a probability, or use to safely peek from.

In addition, because each mech is far too durable, staying in one giant clump is the best strategy. In WoT, I can peek out, find a target, fire, take away a solid chunk of his hp, and roll back into cover. In MWO, one salvo doesnt' do 1/3rd of the enemy's hp unless you're an assault mech and they're a light. This means that individual surprise is far less important. I can't pop over a ridge, dump a shell on someone's engine deck, and roll back. Instead, I pop out, get spotted by 5 mechs, I get hit for far more damage than I did, and my personal initiative counts for nothing.

The vast majority of battles I've been in are either 1: everyone warily pokes at the other team until we all die very, very slowly or 2: everyone starts poking, and then momentum starts and one gunline rushes the other gunline and we all brawl until we all die. There's no flank pushing to control parts of the map. There's no organized retreats to encircle someone. There's no use of hull-down tactics in which one entrenched heavy holds off some smaller enemies. It's all MechBlobOnline. Any yes, these are slight exaggerations. Yes, I've been in interesting battles. But they're not common. Battles are largely the same, and they're largely not based on skill or map control or out-thinking your opponent. It's just about who steps out of cover first, and who blobs best.

PART 4: WHY AM I PLAYING THIS?

The big draw that WoT had to me, I realized, was reason to play. I liked playing the game, not just because the gameplay was fun, but because the game made me earn things. Your tanks need their better treads and engines and guns unlocked. You earn that huge howitzer, dammit, and then you derp your enemies and cackle as your HE rounds knock out their crew. Your crews have skills they can increase and they're night-and-day differences. Having Sixth Sense, which allows you to know when your tanks is spotted, is a massive power increase that you have to earn, slowly. Having a camo crew makes your tank way, way harder to spot, so you can snipe way more effectively. The skills are way more impactful than they are in MWO and more importantly aren't what make a bad mech okay, they make a good tank even better.

Most importantly, you can't just buy any tank. You have to earn it by grinding xp out on the tank below it. And then you play more, to get the next one. It's great. It gives me a reason to keep playing that tank line, it feels like I'm earning my tanks and increasing my skills. I'm advancing, I'm getting there, I have goals along the way with each tank line. Playing a tank line is an experience; your tanks start out terrible and junk, and by the end they're monsters that shouldn't exist. In MWO, that doesnt' exist. Got 20,000,000 cbill? Here, have literally any mech you want. Take it. Any weapon? Unlocked. Done.

What's my motivation to play this mech? It's not getting me a new mech. It's not unlocking a new gun. It's not going to advance to a higher level. It's just... there. And I didnt' earn it. I didnt' have to play through all the Jaguar mechs to get the Summoner. I didn't have to play with medium lasers to unlock heavy medium lasers. I didn't have to play the Prime variant to unlock the other omnipods. I just get everything right away. It's so, so underwhelming. Nothing has any value because it's all immediate. I dont' feel like I've earned anything, and more importantly it doesnt' feel like an experience.

PART 5: WHAT DO I WANT?

I don't know. I'm giving this game a swing again. Maybe I'm wrong. But these are why I left. I strongly feel like these are issues that make the game not fun to gamers who enjoy other games in this same, vague genre. And yes, I'm well aware of the problems World of Tanks has. I know that people still hate artillery, I know people hated the Obj. 268 v4, I get it. But that game was still way, way more satisfying to me.

Edited by timff8, 21 August 2018 - 12:25 AM.

[Dago Red]

Man most of the things that really bug you are features not bugs. Hell depending on who you ask time to kill is still too fast and should be adjusted further.

It sounds suspiciously like WOTis more your jam and you should just stick to it.

[timff8]

Honestly I just want to enjoy this game so much and I just can't. It's incredibly frustrating to me but I just can't.

[Anjian]

Why is peek and boo ever fun at all? If this is the ultimate game style in WoT, that also leads to stagnation, as that is the only winning game style you have from Tier 1 to Tier 10 and worst yet, from 2012 to 2018.

From what I hear is that the Russian players even despise this, and they prefer to clump up, mob, charge and brawl in waves. They also have the same feelings in World of Warships, as they seem to hate players just play there in stand offish ranges and lob shells one another all game along safely on their side of their map. In WoWS, when players fleet up, which is the equivalent to a mob in MW, head out to engage another fleet in close range battle, the fun truly starts.

I believe that its because the players in the North American servers of WoT and WoWs, just like to peek and boo, camp and snipe, especially with the German tanks that encourage that style, is also why the reason why the population of these regional servers are so low and down, compared to the Russian servers where people mob and brawl all the time. If you think about it, isn't that what the Russian tank formations did during World War 2? They charge and charge?

I stopped playing WoT a long time ago because it isn't fun. I choose to play tanks on War Thunder instead. I love the feeling of my T-34 racing down the green plains of Mozdok in a formation with other T-34s and KV-1s to secure a spot before the Germans could grab it. Now that's immersion. Hiding in rocks to peep and pop, that simply isn't what I think is fun.



I studied a few other games, and I have come to the conclusion that high TTK leads to more aggressive brawling play, which is more fun, more movement required, and more dynamic, than low TTK, which leads players to play hide and seek, peek and boo, camp and snipe. Also affecting the style of play is the ratio of damage to range, as high alpha damage to high range lends the game being a more campy meta, while high burst damage or DPS to short range leads to more brawling.

As for the mob effect, this has to do with the high number of players on each team (12 vs. 12) with no respawn. Incidentally WoT also mobs in the form of lemming trains of tanks. Games with a low number of players on each team (5 vs 5, 6 vs. 6) with respawns facing an objective mode of game, tends not to exhibit mobs.

Edited by Anjian, 21 August 2018 - 03:18 AM.

[Nameless King]

World of Tanks is a horrible horrible game.

[Eisenhorne]

For dealing with points 1-3.... maybe you're just not playing a weight class you like?

One of my recent favorite faction play mechs is the Laser Vomit Top Dog (though the WHM-6D can fill the same role). 52 damage alpha strike with 3 LL + 5 ERML, with a speed of ~75 KPH, and plenty of agility. I feel like it can reposition fast enough that it's not "stuck" places, its pretty quick for it's size. Against mediums and lights, it really depends on the opposing pilot's skill. I've one-shot light mechs that run in predictable lines, if you can hold a laser burn on a side torso of any light / medium mech it will either die or be crippled / opened up by a 52 damage alpha strike. And many light pilots are pretty bad, running straight at or away from me, so it's trivially easy to line up a laser burn on them and pop a side torso. Going off on your own isn't always great, but I've occasionally broken off with 1-2 other guys to go for a flank, and it's devastating. You can't go solo, but you can move in small groups.

Most of this experience is in faction play though, I don't play QP much anymore because I dislike the randomness of it all.

[SmokedJag]

BT/MW has never had the exploit and RNG riddled mechanics that drive World of Tanks play. Shot drift turning a kill shot into an "autobounce," being able to engage with true invisibility, critical components not actually where art shows them etc.

[El Bandito]

WoT's grind is what keeps me from playing it in the first place.

[jss78]

I don't like Tanks much, but I do like Warships quite a lot. Been playing it much more than MWO recently. For me this really has come down to three things.

1. I can easily play Warships with 1-2 friends. In Warships we can enter the 12 vs 12 random queue with a division of max 3 people. It's recognized as a balance issue in that game, but not a crippling one. I know opinions will vary on this, but I've always held that MWO has done a mistake in disregarding small groups. The population playing in twos and threes in Warships is quite large, and I suspect MWO has lost many of these people to other games.

2. More long-term goals. Why do I play this Mech/Ship? MWO doesn't really have a grind or progression at all, in the sense of Warships. We can get any 'mech and fully pimp it out with 91 skill nodes in a few dozen games. Then we repeat that. In Warships you grind down the tiered vehicle tree, which takes a lot longer. You also grind crew XP for each ship, up to a maximum of about 1.7 million XP. Fully crew-XP'd ship can then be used to transfer crew XP to other ships.

Grind is really a double-edged sword. On one hand MWO is incredibly fair in the near-absence of grind -- but Warship is better in telling me why I should take out that old favourite of mine, for the 200th time.

3. More tactically interesting random queue. The tactical roles matter more, better balance between capping/killing, less death-balling. It's a mystery to me why Warships achieves this where MWO doesn't.

MWO has massive strengths as well, especially in that BattleTech mystique and art assets. It's a great game.

Edited by jss78, 21 August 2018 - 06:28 AM.

[Leone]

timff8, on 21 August 2018 - 12:23 AM, said:

Anywho, I wanted to talk about why I left, and why I felt WoT is a better game

Sorry, but you lost me here. There's a reason I'm on here and not there.

~Leone

[JRcam4643]

That feeling of not earning anything is why I think they need to change how planets are won and lost in faction play. They could change it so units have a better chance of landing their tag on a planet and earning the mc reward. the nice thing about this idea is all they would need to do is count points earned in battles and add a few buttons to the star map.

But one thing I learned is there aren't enough people that are willing to get behind any particular idea to push it over the top. You might find an isolated case like the ability save load outs but that was more luck I think than anything. There was no organized effort to that there just happened to be enough yelling about it at the same time and even a that it took a long time.

I see threads that were posted yesterday that have over 500 views so there are enough people wandering through here to make a difference if they wanted but If you look at the feature suggestion page even if someone posts a really good idea there will probably be less than half a dozen folks that support it.

[Tetatae Squawkins]

I agree with your first point. Though PGI appears to recognize this is an issue and is giving back some agility. Everything else is what makes MWO a unique game instead of a carbon copy of WOT in a robot skin.

[Horseman]

Quote

PART 1: MY MECH IS A FAT ****

MWO made me happy to play because it let me return to playing with mechs I remember from MW2 and 3. However, when I played those games I was a kid and had no concept of actually playing well. It was just drive up to a mech, shoot it, and move on. Playing MWO I had to actually try. And boy, did I not like trying. The most egregious part of trying was trying to move my mech's fat corpse from place to place. Mechs in this game are... sedentary. Some medium mechs and all the lights are fine; they move quickly, they're responsive. Anything above that is like having bags of water softener salt tied to your ankles. I absolutely despise this. Every movement feels so deliberate, and so permanent, that I feel afraid to venture out, because if I do, it will take so long to get back into position that PGI will have release 4 new mechs for me by then.

PGI is looking at mech mobility at the very least. Last PTS featured substantially buffed mobility on most chassis.

[MechaBattler]

Basically you want firepower and mobility. Play a mid weight heavy. That's the closet you can get to having it all.

If you want to hurt your enemy as much as possible in a single alpha. Roll an assault with dual heavy gauss rifles, but your every movement is a tactical decision on where you commit.

If you want to engage and disengage at will, play a light or the low end mediums. But don't be surprised if you're chased by equally fast machines.

Sorry you can't turn invisible while camping in a bush. You'll have to try harder in this game. If having to make hard choices, like what mech you choose, how you build the mech, and how you use it to the best advantage of your team. If that's too much, well then this game really isn't for you.

[timff8]

Anjian, on 21 August 2018 - 03:12 AM, said:

I studied a few other games, and I have come to the conclusion that high TTK leads to more aggressive brawling play, which is more fun, more movement required, and more dynamic, than low TTK, which leads players to play hide and seek, peek and boo, camp and snipe. Also affecting the style of play is the ratio of damage to range, as high alpha damage to high range lends the game being a more campy meta, while high burst damage or DPS to short range leads to more brawling.

Honeslty I cant' stand brawling, and that's definitely a failure on my part. I cant' handle the complete lack of structure, need to be exactly perfect on when you commit or don't, or else you get killed for being the first in, or lose for not helping soon. I especially can't handle the rapid torso twisting, it's very disorienting and stressful honestly makes me feel very sick. This is entirely my fault, but I can't play it.

Anjian, on 21 August 2018 - 03:12 AM, said:

As for the mob effect, this has to do with the high number of players on each team (12 vs. 12) with no respawn. Incidentally WoT also mobs in the form of lemming trains of tanks. Games with a low number of players on each team (5 vs 5, 6 vs. 6) with respawns facing an objective mode of game, tends not to exhibit mobs.

WoT has teams of 15 and you dont' get the same giant mob effect. Lemming trains of tanks happens but not all the time, and it's never to the extent as it is in MWO. Yeah you do get trains but it's not literally everyone on the team.

MechaBattler, on 21 August 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Basically you want firepower and mobility. Play a mid weight heavy. That's the closet you can get to having it all.

I would LOVE if the summoner could stop sucking. Like seriously, I would love that. But it sucks, and I can't do anything about that. "Play 2 PPCs! Meta!" Hell no. I'm not playing a build I can fit on a Kitfox. That's demeaning.

Eisenhorne, on 21 August 2018 - 06:02 AM, said:

Most of this experience is in faction play though, I don't play QP much anymore because I dislike the randomness of it all.

I'm sure faction play is better, it would almost have to be. But I really don't want to commit to that. I want to be able to play on my own time, when I want to, with what I want. I dont' want to be beholden to group politics and be yelled at for not being good enough.

[FupDup]

timff8, on 21 August 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

I would LOVE if the summoner could stop sucking. Like seriously, I would love that. But it sucks, and I can't do anything about that. "Play 2 PPCs! Meta!" Hell no. I'm not playing a build I can fit on a Kitfox. That's demeaning.

Sure, you CAN put two ERPPCs on a Kit Fox, but you are going to reach the top of its heat threshold very quickly and remain at the top of that heat bar for a long time because you can't dissipate any heat at all from lacking any extra DHS. The Summoner on the other hand can keep pushing out those nipple lightning bolts for quite a while, not to mention being actually durable instead of armored in tissue paper like the Fox.

All of that aside, if you really wanna do double ERPeeps on a light mech the one true answer is Adder Prime because of its heat and velocity quirks.

Edited by FupDup, 21 August 2018 - 02:14 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Problem is the Summoner only has 20 tons. By comparison the Novacat has around 36. The Linebacker has about 16, but it's the most agile clan heavy.

[tutzdes]

timff8, on 21 August 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

I would LOVE if the summoner could stop sucking. Like seriously, I would love that. But it sucks, and I can't do anything about that. "Play 2 PPCs! Meta!" Hell no. I'm not playing a build I can fit on a Kitfox. That's demeaning.

It doesn't suck for me. I played various builds and love the mech. It is my favourite heavy in the game and I played "meta" ones too.

[Abaddun]

timff8, on 21 August 2018 - 12:23 AM, said:

Hello everyone,

PART 3: MY MECH IS STAPLED HORRIBLY TO THE GROUP

These two previous parts create the mechanic of the game that I most dislike: stay in the group, get the group to murderball the enemy murderball. Because mechs take so long to reposition, they can't afford to go out on their own. A misstep can mean they die, because not only are they incredibly slow to retreat, but terrain in MWO is often all-or-nothing; you're behind a giant rock or you're not. There's no such thing as concealment that you can use to hide yourself with a probability, or use to safely peek from.

In addition, because each mech is far too durable, staying in one giant clump is the best strategy. In WoT, I can peek out, find a target, fire, take away a solid chunk of his hp, and roll back into cover. In MWO, one salvo doesnt' do 1/3rd of the enemy's hp unless you're an assault mech and they're a light. This means that individual surprise is far less important. I can't pop over a ridge, dump a shell on someone's engine deck, and roll back. Instead, I pop out, get spotted by 5 mechs, I get hit for far more damage than I did, and my personal initiative counts for nothing.

You sound like you want to be playing Clan Laservomit. That's pretty much exactly what you have described. Oh and you've most likely rejoined and dropped into tier 5 where everybody's a spud it's less about firefights and more about milling around aimlessly.

And you're the first person I've seen that actually want's grind. I'm a bit perplexed really. I'm also confused by how you described your experience buying mechs. Personally I've never just bought a mech as is and stuck to one build. I will buy it, and go to town tinkering with different loadouts, engine sizes, equipment skills etc. Normally each mech is a 15-30 million investment at a minimum.

[Prototelis]

Honestly... I wish this game had something to grind other than mechs and stats.