34 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Hiten Bongz, on 21 August 2018 - 11:33 PM, said:

And no, 10% extra velocity ...

I think PGI missed a "0" on the extra velocity percentage.

[Viking Yelling]

Battlemaster56, on 22 August 2018 - 02:55 AM, said:

Personally ATM right now need a buff on it lock time, and usabilty in 500m (2 damage range) and it long range damage so it encourages more than lock srm nuke that it is now.

I made a post about this once. Something about making ATM-3 actually usable. something along the lines of having ATM-3 intentionally used only at the close and medium range marks. Cause ATM-3 at 1200m is not only redundant because or AMS, ECM, and LRM5 weighing less, but because ATMs inherently had a 3-point damage without a minimum range. the same could work for ATM-6 since most players want 9 or 12 for longer range. And No, before someone tries to say it, it would not replace Streak missiles, because they have a higher velocity and a different tracking system. edit: i forgot to add they have similar cooldown times as well.

As for Chris's quote, I don't really get why they would think ATMs would have Artemis built into the weapon system, and then think that it shouldn't get the the other buffs that Artemis gives the in-game targeting system. Maybe I'm interpreting Sarna incorrectly, or perhaps just alternatively.

Edited by Viking Yelling, 22 August 2018 - 09:25 AM.

[Daurock]

Viking Yelling, on 22 August 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

As for Chris's quote, I don't really get why they would think ATMs would have Artemis built into the weapon system, and then think that it shouldn't get the the other buffs that Artemis gives the in-game targeting system. Maybe I'm interpreting Sarna incorrectly, or perhaps just alternatively.

I suspect that the problem lies in the fact that they are unable to do 2 things based on the actual weapon mounted, and instead are baked into the "Switch" in the mechlab - those two things being, lock-on time, and Tracking strength. The fact that they alluded to these things being part of the streak "Bug" leads me to come to that conclusion.
I suspect that ATMs ALSO fell into that bug, but in the opposite fashion - I.E. if you had ATMs, but somehow DIDN'T have Artemis checkboxed in your mech, you would have had worse locking, and/or worse tracking. (I'm going to be honest, I don't even know if you can mount ATMS without artemis being checkboxed, so i don't know if it was actually a thing.)

Now that they've changed how the "Checkbox" works, and removed the Artemis locking/tracking bonus for ALL missiles when the artemis checkbox is turned on, they really need to do something to make the Artemis based systems stand out a bit better - most likely in things they CAN change on a weapon-by-weapon basis, such as speed, spread, or cooldown/heat/damage.

Edited by Daurock, 22 August 2018 - 10:21 AM.

[Hiten Bongz]

Daurock, on 22 August 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

I suspect that ATMs ALSO fell into that bug, but in the opposite fashion - I.E. if you had ATMs, but somehow DIDN'T have Artemis checkboxed in your mech, you would have had worse locking, and/or worse tracking. (I'm going to be honest, I don't even know if you can mount ATMS without artemis being checkboxed, so i don't know if it was actually a thing.)

Nah, ATMs functioned properly as if they had Artemis already (without adding it with the drop-down menu). Same lock speed as an Artemis-equipped LRM launcher.

Now, pre vs. post-patch, they have double the lock time. Less than half of the lock area. No "tracking" (still not sure wtf that is) bonus, either.

So basically 3 hard usability nerfs to ATMs, directly due to the Artemis nerf, and none of which were necessary for ATM launchers...at all. Oh but they gave us 10% increased velocity as a bone...lul...ok...FU.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 22 August 2018 - 03:38 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Hiten Bongz, on 21 August 2018 - 11:55 PM, said:

I have been asking for ATM buffs.

What did I get...ATM nerfs instead. GG, PGI, GG.

I know ATMs weren't supposed to get EXTRA, STACKING buffs from adding Artemis (added an edit to OP for clarification of this). I am fine about the loophole being closed (even though this also affects Streaks negatively - but that's a different discussion). I am not fine about the base launchers themselves getting nerfed - which they are, because there is still the baked-in and unremovable Artemis being negatively affected by these changes.

the only thing that changed was ATMs no longer get the Boost from the Artemis upgrade,
that 50% tracking Strength and 50% boost to lock on time, no longer apply, that exploit is now gone,
so now ATMs are working as intended,

if you ignore that Exploit with Artemis, or never used Artimes with ATMs them they did get a Buff,
as their Velocity did increase by 10%, and as such the missiles should arrive to the Target 10% sooner,

im not saying that ATMs are perfect, i feel they still need some love,
as i feel so do LRMs and Streaks, but only good can come out of the removal of this Exploit,
as now the weapon system can truely be buffed to where they need to be,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 22 August 2018 - 04:52 PM.

[Hiten Bongz]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 August 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

the only thing that changed was ATMs no longer get the Boost from the Artemis upgrade,
that 50% tracking Strength and 50% boost to lock on time, no longer apply, that exploit is now gone,
so now ATMs are working as intended,

if you ignore that Exploit with Artemis, or never used Artimes with ATMs them they did get a Buff,
as their Velocity did increase by 10%, and as such the missiles should arrive to the Target 10% sooner,

im not saying that ATMs are perfect, i feel they still need some love,
as i feel so do LRMs and Streaks, but only good can come out of the removal of this Exploit,
as now the weapon system can truely be buffed to where they need to be,

Wrong.

And I know this is wrong because I used ATMs aplenty pre-patch without using the extra Artemis exploit.

Pre-patch if you compared lock-on time of a LRM launcher to an ATM launcher, both WITHOUT adding Artemis to them, the ATM launcher acquired targets noticeably faster (because it already has Artemis, and thus decreased lock speed, baked in). I specifically tested for this in the practice maps after reading on Sarna and elsewhere that ATMs come with integrated Artemis.

Why is this such a hard concept for people to grasp? The ATM launcher COMES with Artemis. It COMES WITH IT. YOU CANNOT REMOVE IT. It always had a 50% lock speed bonus, you didn't need to add the exploit to get that! Adding the "exploit" Artemis got you a 100% lock speed bonus, i.e. double bonuses!

So, yes, pre-patch you could still add Artemis on TOP of the ATM launcher, and this would effectively result in DOUBLE ARTEMIS bonuses. 2x lock speed increase, 2x spread reduction, 2x tracking strength. That was the exploit/loophole that was fixed, which is fine. Problem is, they didn't just close the loophole, they also nerfed the living hell out of Artemis itself (removal of lock speed bonus, removal of tracking strength bonus), which in turn nerfed all ATM launchers. I'm not asking for DOUBLE ARTEMIS to make a return, I'm asking for the original lock speed and tracking strength bonuses from the integrated Artemis back. I don't want to see ATMs with 100% lock speed bonuses, but 50% as it was before, if you weren't exploiting.

For anyone who actually used ATMs before the patch - without the EXTRA Artemis (not using the exploit) - there has been a large increase in lock time (and equivalent decrease of "tracking strength"). It's exactly the same increase in lock time that a LRM launcher gets from stripping Artemis, +50% time to lock.

Please, PLEASE if you don't understand how the ATM/Artemis combo worked before, don't throw misinformation around like "it was actually buffed." ATMs received one small buff (10% velocity) at the cost of three - THREE - nerfs: lock-on speed, tracking strength, and locking angle.

And FYI, a paltry 20 m/s increase to missile speed does not make up for several additional seconds of lock time.

Andi Nagasia, on 22 August 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

now the weapon system can truely be buffed to where they need to be,

Well, we can hope and pray, but ATMs weren't all that awesome before the patch and now they're even worse usability wise. I'd like to see an actual Missile Balance PTS (it's okay for lasers only?) instead of huge blanket-nerfs to whole weapon systems. Or they could just make Artemis function properly (only LoS gives bonuses) but that just seems out of their league for unknown reasons..?

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 22 August 2018 - 07:14 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Jackal Noble, on 22 August 2018 - 12:06 AM, said:

Further, what about MRMs and RLs? They get off scot free, as Artemis still works for those.

No it doesn't. Artemis does literally nothing to them.

[Andi Nagasia]

Hiten Bongz, on 22 August 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

Pre-patch if you compared lock-on time of a LRM launcher to an ATM launcher, both WITHOUT adding Artemis to them, the ATM launcher acquired targets noticeably faster (because it already has Artemis, and thus decreased lock speed, baked in).

actually no this is incorrect,
as the lock on time with ATMs Equipped(@400m) was 1.3sec,
as the lock on time with LRMs Equipped(@400m) was 1.3sec,
for all the above, it was closer to 0.7sec(@400m) with Artemis,

little known fact, if you want to test lock on time go into a to a Match/Academy/Training-Grounds,
point at a target, if you dont have a Lockon weapon active in your weapon groups you wont lock on,
even if you have it equipped you wont lock on unless you toggle it to a weapon group,

so to test remove the Missile system from your weapon groups,
look at a target, and add it to a weapon group as you use a stop watch(frame count works too)
test several times by hitting control to unequip your system(you'll lose lock) and test it again,

Hiten Bongz, on 22 August 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

Why is this such a hard concept for people to grasp?

Yes, you could still add Artemis on TOP of the ATM launcher, this would effectively result in DOUBLE ARTEMIS bonuses. 2x lock speed increase, 2x spread reduction, 2x tracking strength. That was the exploit/loophole that was fixed. I'm not asking for DOUBLE ARTEMIS to make a return, I'm asking for the original lock speed and tracking strength bonuses back.

this information is factually incorrect,

Hiten Bongz, on 22 August 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

For anyone who actually used ATMs before the patch - without EXTRA Artemis (not using the exploit) - there was a large increase in lock time (and "tracking strength").

not correct, because even if what you say was true, than not having Artemis would only reduce your tracking by 50%,
it would not also remove the tracking or lock on from the already existing ATMs, this just isnt how it worked,

Hiten Bongz, on 22 August 2018 - 05:16 PM, said:

Please, PLEASE if you don't understand how the ATM/Artemis combo worked before, don't throw misinformation around like "it was actually buffed." ATMs received one small buff (10% velocity) at the cost of three - THREE - nerfs: lock-on speed, tracking strength (?), and locking angle.

we tested this allot, back when civil war first came out, also with many others here on the Forums,
Bishop, El Bandio, Navid, and others, to my knowledge and testing, Target time was always about the same,

if you dont include the Artemis Exploit(using Artemis with ATM)
then ATMs have only been Nerfed with the Lock on Angle, nothing else,

[Andi Nagasia]

.
dont get me wrong i also think ATMs need abit of love, as do i feel with LRMs and SSRMs still,
but changes to Artemis are independent from any changes to the ATM system, in lore its backed in,
but in MWO, its its own weapon system, that has no relation to Artemis,

[Hiten Bongz]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 August 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

if you dont include the Artemis Exploit(using Artemis with ATM)
then ATMs have only been Nerfed with the Lock on Angle, nothing else,

It's like I'm talking to a brick wall...okay man, believe whatever you want! But you are wrong.

Chris Lowrey, on 20 August 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

ATMs are considered to have Artemis baked into their core stats. This change will not affect their spread values as they where not affected by the Artemis upgrade just like MRM's and Rocket launchers. This will only affect the lock on angle and lock times.

lock times.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 22 August 2018 - 06:00 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Hiten Bongz, on 22 August 2018 - 05:59 PM, said:

Andi Nagasia, on 22 August 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

if you dont include the Artemis Exploit(using Artemis with ATM)
then ATMs have only been Nerfed with the Lock on Angle, nothing else,

It's like I'm talking to a brick wall...okay man, believe whatever you want! But you are wrong.

Chris Lowrey, on 20 August 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

ATMs are considered to have Artemis baked into their core stats. This change will not affect their spread values as they where not affected by the Artemis upgrade just like MRM's and Rocket launchers. This will only affect the lock on angle and lock times.

lock times.

he also didnt mention ATMs losing Tracking Strength,
if the Artemis upgrade lost (Lock on time) & (Tracking Strength) and ATMs only lost (Lock on time)
if then wouldnt that also mean that a Change to Artemis doesnt effect ATMs as their (Tracking Strength) didnt change?

we can only assume he misspoke, if he misspoke it could go in ether one of our favors,
so in this instance this quote, doesnt help settle whether or not an Artemis change effects ATMs,

ill tweet Chris and get his thoughts on this,

[Gen Lee]

I've been using ATMs on some mechs for quite some time now, and I can definitely tell a difference in the lock times post-patch. I was getting quicker locks with ATMs before the patch nerfed Artemis, because now it takes longer even when a player is in my LOS. From what I've always heard and read, Artemis was part of ATMs, and that's partly what made them worth taking. I never have the Artemis option selected when running any missiles on the mechs I run, so I haven't been getting quicker locks due to that.

All I can say is that this patch totally wrecks ATMs, isn't helpful for Streaks, and promotes the worst kind of LRM use. Whatever direction the devs are wanting to take the game in, I hope this was a step in the other direction.

[Hiten Bongz]

Gen Lee, on 22 August 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

I've been using ATMs on some mechs for quite some time now, and I can definitely tell a difference in the lock times post-patch. I was getting quicker locks with ATMs before the patch nerfed Artemis, because now it takes longer even when a player is in my LOS.

I never have the Artemis option selected when running any missiles on the mechs I run, so I haven't been getting quicker locks due to that.

All I can say is that this patch totally wrecks ATMs, isn't helpful for Streaks, and promotes the worst kind of LRM use.

My experiences exactly. Anyone else claiming different, is simply ignorant, misinformed, or tested incorrectly. Not trying to be rude, but I've extensively tested this exact thing against targets in training grounds and the base ATM lock-on speed was quite obviously faster when compared to non-Artemis LRM lock speed.

Andi Nagasia, on 22 August 2018 - 05:55 PM, said:

dont get me wrong i also think ATMs need abit of love, as do i feel with LRMs and SSRMs still

Now THIS we can agree on, bruh.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 22 August 2018 - 06:23 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Hiten Bongz, on 22 August 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

My experience exactly. Anyone else claiming different, is simply ignorant or misinformed. Not trying to be rude, but I've extensively tested this exact thing against targets in training grounds and it was quite obvious.

may i just ask at what distance were you locking on,
and what your times were pre and post patch,

[Hiten Bongz]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 August 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

may i just ask at what distance were you locking on,
and what your times were pre and post patch,

Distance usually 200-400m.

I didn't record times - I really didn't need to. It was immediately clear that a stock ATM launcher acquired locks ~50% faster than a stock LRM launcher, and that coincides with Artemis boosted stats. I confirmed what I read, and that was enough for me.

I suppose we could both be right, y'know...if you tested ATMs a long time ago, it's possible that PGI didn't implement the baked-in Artemis properly when they released ATMs. But IDK, I wasn't playing MWO back then. All I can say is I just recently tested ATM lock speed 1 maybe 2 months ago tops, and the stock launcher functioned properly as to having an integrated Artemis system.

I have about 10 different Clan mechs that run some combo of ATMs. None of them had Artemis added pre-patch (wasn't aware it stacked, doh), and now every single one is suffering +50% lock times.

This change is very obvious to someone who runs (non-exploited) ATMs on a regular basis.

Then throw a 50% angle nerf on top as icing on the cake, and now I'm swimming in salt

From patch notes, 18-OCT-2017

Missile Design Notes: ATMs are considered to have the Artemis Upgrade pre-attached to the weapon, and should function as such, but with the exception that their base level Spread is not augmented by Artemis (as it considered rolled into their baseline stats).

https://mwomercs.com...37-18-oct-2017/

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 22 August 2018 - 07:06 PM.