215 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Sable, on 23 August 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

Although it is a test session i think PGI went the wrong direction with this. The whole point is to curb alpha striking while encouraging splitting up damage to smaller max outputs spread over a period of time instead of all at once. How is that accomplished when you can alpha strike strike MORE efficiently because of faster cooling? If you can still pump up your total cooling from skillstree that means you can have a heat cap closer to 55-60. I think 40 was a good point if it was left unaffected by the operations tree but since you can gain extra heatcap i think lowering it to 35 would actually accomplish the goal of curbing high alphas. PGI has to accept that if they want to curb high alphas they need to bite the bullet and accept that they need to drastically change the way people will have to play. I mean really... a deathstrike can fire without consideration to heat now with the faster cooling and the heatcap at 50.

The point is not to curb alpha striking as a playstyle, just very large energy weapon alpha strikes. Firing all of your stuff in one volley will always be the most practical approach, it's just about reducing the size of that volley to a lower amount that our mech armor can more adequately cope with (in a way that doesn't require even more armor inflation that makes low firepower mechs even less effective by comparison).

That said, I am a bit skeptical of the values we're using because even at 40 cap my skilled up Virago could handle the full 2 HLL + 4 ERML volley at like 89% heat or so on River City on land (because PGI thought it would be a good idea to give the hero Hellbringer -10% energy heat lol). And of course the Gauss Rifle remains as a massive outlier in terms of damage-per-heat ratio (along with its range and pinpoint damage).

Edited by FupDup, 23 August 2018 - 02:37 PM.

[IronEleven]

FupDup, on 23 August 2018 - 02:21 PM, said:

even at 40 cap my skilled up Virago could handle the full 2 HLL + 4 ERML volley at like 89% heat or so on River City on land (because PGI thought it would be a good idea to give the hero Hellbringer -10% energy heat lol). And of course the Gauss Rifle remains as a massive outlier in terms of damage-per-heat ratio (along with its range and pinpoint damage).

Oh really? I must have forgotten to try that when I did some science with the F LT, wound up going with 2xERLL 5xERML.

[Hiten Bongz]

cougurt, on 23 August 2018 - 03:59 AM, said:

i'm aware that ATMs are supposed to have built in artemis, but to my knowledge that doesn't mean anything in terms of their functionality in MWO. so, if i'm not mistaken, the only thing that's changed is that they no longer benefit from increased lock on speeds. spread and tracking should be completely unaffected by any changes made to artemis.

MrKvola, on 23 August 2018 - 04:38 AM, said:

ATMs and streaks got fixed, not nerfed. Selecting Artemis should have had zero effect on them in the first place.

The way that weapons work in MWO changing the Artemis subsystem does not affect ATM base stats (i.e. spread) - so they will function the same, just without the Artemis hack (that is selecting Artemis when you boat only ATMs and get reduced lockon time).

You guys are wrong, except for the fact that adding Artemis from the drop-down box should have never applied (blame spaghetti code?), and that the spread bonus isn't affected either way.

From patch notes, 18-OCT-2017

Missile Design Notes: ATMs are considered to have the Artemis Upgrade pre-attached to the weapon, and should function as such, but with the exception that their base level Spread is not augmented by Artemis (as it considered rolled into their baseline stats).

https://mwomercs.com...37-18-oct-2017/

Chris Lowrey, on 20 August 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

ATMs are considered to have Artemis baked into their core stats. This change will not affect their spread values as they where not affected by the Artemis upgrade just like MRM's and Rocket launchers. This will only affect the lock on angle and lock times.

Now, nobody is asking for "EXTRA ARTEMIS" (the exploit i.e. adding Artemis from the drop-down box) to come back. Okay?

ATMs (the stock launcher - no extra ARTEMIS added via drop-down box) used to have an innate 50% bonus to lock speed and tracking - as it's supposed to reflect having inbuilt Artemis - that has been completely removed with the patch. They now lock and track as slowly as a straight up non-Artemis LRM launcher (i.e. slow AF). Pre-patch (without the damn exploit!) they locked targets at the same speed as an Artemis enabled LRM launcher.

Pre-patch:

1. ATM has Artemis bonuses baked-in (50% lock speed bonus, 50% tracking, 75% spread)
2. You could still add Artemis on top, effectively doubling the above bonuses.

Post-patch:

1. ATM has Artemis bonuses baked-in, but since Artemis is nerfed, all that remains is 75% spread.
2. Cannot add Artemis on top

What does this mean? Even if you weren't exploiting ATMs pre-patch (like me), you lose the old 50% lock speed and tracking bonuses from all your ATMs. Cuz PGI.

Hope that clears up the ATM situation. There's a lot of wrong info and belief about how ATMs really worked pre-patch, mostly by players who didn't bother to actually test these specific things out (like I did).

But I digress. PTS, and things.

Edited by Hiten Bongz, 23 August 2018 - 03:39 PM.

[Nightbird]

What is the base heat cap with 10 engine SHS/DHS in the currently live MWO?

Edited by Nightbird, 23 August 2018 - 03:45 PM.

[NUMBERZero1032]

InnerSphereNews, on 22 August 2018 - 04:00 PM, said:

While the increased dissipation times for PTS 2.0 have shown promising results, the tested threshold values simply saw too many different types of loadouts pushed into unusable territories.

Are there any specific builds you would like tested? Name a chassis and a role you want played, and I will run it, even record it for you.

[Shadowomega1]

Increasing the heat cap to 50? Wasn't the alpha that people complained about from the Deathstrike 52 heat for that 94 point alpha?

Wouldn't it have been better to try 30 cap + 1 for each skill node taken (max 35) been a better test?

[BrunoSSace]

I miss out on the last pts. Still confused why the 55Toners have less agility then say a Zues or alot less then a quickdraw?

But all these changes look good. Push them forward and make them a reality. Mobility makes the game more fun.

[Sable]

Shadowomega1, on 23 August 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

Increasing the heat cap to 50? Wasn't the alpha that people complained about from the Deathstrike 52 heat for that 94 point alpha?

Wouldn't it have been better to try 30 cap + 1 for each skill node taken (max 35) been a better test?

With full heat gen skills from firepower and full heat skills from the operations tree that 94 point alpha can be fired and it's just enough to shut you down but when you power up you won't have any heat damage. If you did the more traditional 6 er mediums, you'll make your heat beep at you but it will be down quickly and you can keep on trucking. Thats why i think a slightly lower max heat would be better for the game overall

I just had an idea, make a higher heat cap a quirk like 10% for mechs with a lot of energy hardpoints while keeping the regular heatcap at 35-40 That way overall energy alphas would be put more in check while not hurting the outliers.

Edited by Sable, 23 August 2018 - 04:42 PM.

[Navid A1]

I know PTS hasn't started yet... but I ran some builds through my simulator and here are the results.
These are just raw comparisons... While my initial opinion is positive on the changes in this iteration, I'm gonna reserve any verdict for after I tested builds in the PTS with respect to gameplay.

MPL WLF:





Brawler LBK:






HBR Laser vomit:







PPC WHK:

[Commander James Raynor]

It seems to me that 50 is a bit much. 40 seemed restrictive enough, but I'll have to test it to be sure.

I don't want to miss the oportunity to talk about the mass machineguns (mostly clan) and the heavy gauss. They're OP, and I don't want people to forget.

Would it be too weird to reduce significantly the damage on all the gauss and remove the charge time? It would be a sort of long range, cooler AC, with a much lower damage per ton. A sniping AC. I know people won't like it, but I think the charged gauss is just weird. It feels weird and isn't satisfactory to use, nor is it satisfactory to get a 30 (or 50) damage on a single component. Just feeling the water.

[Navid A1]

Commander James Raynor, on 23 August 2018 - 04:39 PM, said:

It seems to me that 50 is a bit much. 40 seemed restrictive enough, but I'll have to test it to be sure.

I don't want to miss the oportunity to talk about the mass machineguns (mostly clan) and the heavy gauss. They're OP, and I don't want people to forget.

Would it be too weird to reduce significantly the damage on all the gauss and remove the charge time? It would be a sort of long range, cooler AC, with a much lower damage per ton. A sniping AC. I know people won't like it, but I think the charged gauss is just weird. It feels weird and isn't satisfactory to use, nor is it satisfactory to get a 30 (or 50) damage on a single component. Just feeling the water.

To me, 50 is the rock bottom. anything lower and so many builds, configurations and roles are insta-invalid

Machine guns are anything but OP... same as heavy Gauss

Edited by Navid A1, 23 August 2018 - 04:42 PM.

[Navid A1]

Nightbird, on 23 August 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

What is the base heat cap with 10 engine SHS/DHS in the currently live MWO?

base heat cap on Live client with 10 SHS is 42

base heat cap on Live client with 10 DHS is 50

Edited by Navid A1, 23 August 2018 - 04:45 PM.

[Commander James Raynor]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

To me, 50 is the rock bottom. anything lower and so many builds, configurations and roles are insta-invalid

Machine guns are anything but OP... same as heavy Gauss

It's not really machineguns, it's the PIR-1 and the MLX-G. Every other weapon has a limit to how many you can shoot, either by ghost heat or a hard limit (gauss). The machineguns in these mechs provide the ability to have a 20 ton mech with 14.4 DPS, with no heat worries, that can move at 150+ KPH and can strip components like crazy. For comparison, a NTG with 2 UAC10 and 3 MPL has a 13.37 DPH, and it can overheat. The only "weakness" of the MG PIR-1 is its range. I can't stress this enough: that mech is just too much.

Heavy gauss... well, that's just too much because of the no heat pinpoint 50 damage.

[Navid A1]

Commander James Raynor, on 23 August 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

It's not really machineguns, it's the PIR-1 and the MLX-G. Every other weapon has a limit to how many you can shoot, either by ghost heat or a hard limit (gauss). The machineguns in these mechs provide the ability to have a 20 ton mech with 14.4 DPS, with no heat worries, that can move at 150+ KPH and can strip components like crazy. For comparison, a NTG with 2 UAC10 and 3 MPL has a 13.37 DPH, and it can overheat. The only "weakness" of the MG PIR-1 is its range. I can't stress this enough: that mech is just too much.

Heavy gauss... well, that's just too much because of the no heat pinpoint 50 damage.

The greatest weakness of the PIR-1 is being made of paper. You can hit it with basically anything and its dead.
Its a mini glass cannon, very potent if ignored, falls apart if shot at.

There are a limited number of mechs that can run dual HGR. And those mechs have their own limitations.... one of them is getting flanked by lights... like the PIR-1

[cougurt]

Commander James Raynor, on 23 August 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

It's not really machineguns, it's the PIR-1 and the MLX-G. Every other weapon has a limit to how many you can shoot, either by ghost heat or a hard limit (gauss). The machineguns in these mechs provide the ability to have a 20 ton mech with 14.4 DPS, with no heat worries, that can move at 150+ KPH and can strip components like crazy. For comparison, a NTG with 2 UAC10 and 3 MPL has a 13.37 DPH, and it can overheat. The only "weakness" of the MG PIR-1 is its range. I can't stress this enough: that mech is just too much.

Heavy gauss... well, that's just too much because of the no heat pinpoint 50 damage.

those limits primarily exist to keep large amounts of upfront damage in check. machine guns don't have any such restrictions because they do their damage over time, and that entails a great deal of risk for the lighter mechs that typically use them.

[Commander James Raynor]

Navid A1, on 23 August 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

The greatest weakness of the PIR-1 is being made of paper. You can hit it with basically anything and its dead.
Its a mini glass cannon, very potent if ignored, falls apart if shot at.

There are a limited number of mechs that can run dual HGR. And those mechs have their own limitations.... one of them is getting flanked by lights... like the PIR-1

Ok, but that's a weakness that it shares with every light, including, for example, the flea or other, less machinegunny, piranhas, none of which can do the same damage. Either every other light and medium in the game is off, or it's the machinegun PIR, because not even the most damage oriented lights can overcome the heaviest heavy mech damage-wise.

Edited by Commander James Raynor, 23 August 2018 - 05:15 PM.

[Shadowomega1]

Those that think 40 heat is to low need to go play Mechwarrior 3, 4 and Living Legends.

[FupDup]

Shadowomega1, on 23 August 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

Those that think 40 heat is to low need to go play Mechwarrior 3, 4 and Living Legends.

Those aren't good examples. MW4 allowed huge alphas and MW3 had super dissipation that let you cool down quad Clan ERPPCs faster than they could generate heat (you would shut down for less than a second, then immediately start back up and have all your heat gone by the time the guns are reloaded).

[Hiten Bongz]

cougurt, on 23 August 2018 - 05:07 PM, said:

those limits primarily exist to keep large amounts of upfront damage in check. machine guns don't have any such restrictions because they do their damage over time, and that entails a great deal of risk for the lighter mechs that typically use them.

~14 damage PER SECOND with no heat does not quantify "great deal of risk."

Oh, you said "typically." Gotcha. So...what you mean to say is that the PIR-1 when boating mass MGs is indeed an exception to the rule? Hmm.

[Cypherdrene]

I've done some math and as an example, an unskilled HBR with 4xERML and 2xHLL sits at 64 damage and 71 Heatcap, a full alpha yields about 70-71% heat (51 points), which leaves a pretty high overhead for that much pinpoint damage.

With the PTS cap at 50, the mech would instantly overheat and actually receive damage from the same salvo. By dropping one ERML, the heat would reach 95% (44.7 points) for 57 alpha damage, riding the threshold. With PTS dissipation, the mech would be incredibly heat efficient at around +75% (with current values it's already at 60% efficiency).

Now, I don't know if PGI was targeting mechs like the HBR, but a 65 ton mech with that much juice is dangerous AF, it's almost at 1 damage PER TON!!, but lets do the math for the MCII-DS shall we?. Alright..

Current stats (unskilled):
365 XL
17 DHS = 60.5 Heat
2xGauss, 2xHLL, 2xERML = 80 alpha = 42.1 heat or 69% @ 47% efficiency.

PTS stats (unskilled):
Same engine & DHS
50 heat cap
Same loadout = 87% heat but cools MUCH faster.

See the problem PGI? The same build but at about +60% heat efficiency in PTS. With 40 heat cap as the previous PTS, that same DeathStrike would have to drop or chain fire the ERML's. Sure its only 14 points less of alpha damage, BUT IT IS STILL LESS DAMAGE!! which was the whole point of this PTS series.

ANH with 2xHGR and 4xERML deals 70 damage at a measly 17.9 points of heat, that's only 35%!! insanely low!! quite literally it can fire without breaks for as long as it has ammo!... *breathes*... Sure, GRs and HGR's require some timing and a small degree of skill to be used, so these builds are seemingly not the target?? O.K., lets keep goin...

At 50 cap, the maximum Laser only damage -that I could come up with- without overheat or ghost heat is:
Clan: DWF, 64 (1xHLL, 1xLPL, 5xERML)
IS: BLR/BNC @ 54 (3+3 LL) or TDR-TD/BNC @ 52 (3xLL, 5xERML) and quite a bit less efficient than Clan

This PTS has already taken a step back and it's not even out yet @ 40 heat cap, Clan would need to drop 1 ERML and this actually brings them more in line with IS.

Navid, I'm really interested in this WLF build, I'm guessing it's LF 230 and with the PTS values of dissipation. Any Chance you could add 5-10% more dissipation @ 40 heat cap and compare it to the proposed 2.1?? I'd really appreciate it if you did

Navid A1, on 23 August 2018 - 04:35 PM, said:

PS: Why the Hunchback hate?