121 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tlords, on 27 August 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

What I think he's talking about is give them even more heat management - raise the skill level even further.

"increased heat management" doesn't require more skill, it just changes what you can viably use........in other words, you guys have no idea what you are talking about.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2018 - 03:44 PM.

[Tlords]

I guess I'd think the same if I was you. I'm curious how requiring more heat management and reducing the amount you can alpha at one time, doesn't increase the skill level across the board. Can you explain?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tlords, on 27 August 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

I guess I'd think the same if I was you. I'm curious how requiring more heat management and reducing the amount you can alpha at one time, doesn't increase the skill level across the board. Can you explain?

First, let's get one thing straight. Decreasing the power of alphas =/= magically increasing skill levels. People complain about alphas being devoid of skill but I see a lot of people who are absolutely horrendous playing with them so if they don't take much skill to play, why are so many people bad at them :thinking_man:.

Second, increasing heat's effectiveness at limiting damage doesn't change how you manage heat, just how many (or what type in the case of capacity) you can effectively use. This means the pacing of the game is changed and that can be a bad thing, after all forcing chain fire effectively makes this game like any other standard shooter in that you can only fire one gun at a time (and would have drastic impact on the effective tactics).

Third, there seems to be a lot of hate about cover being used. Cover being important means positioning being important which implies that tactics and strats actually matter. If tactics and strats don't matter, then this game just boils down to DPS facerushing each other on a flat map with open terrain and who does it better.

[Tlords]

hm.... I see what your saying...

Alphas require skill, increasing heat management means chain fire, and cover is important.

What if we could make it so firing weapons in groups equaled heat management (not chain fire, just no huge alphas), and heat management is what separated the skilled form the unskilled - would that take care of your concerns?

[Khobai]

heat management will never be a proper skill as long theres no penalty for constantly riding your heat high

players should be incentivized more to keep their heat low and not constantly ride it high. Mechs should at least suffer a speed penalty if their heat is high. You should have to give something up to ride your heat at like 90% constantly.

I would be okay with speed penalty for high heat as well as a variable heat cap (different heat caps for each weight class/mech instead of a universal heat cap of 50 for all mechs). But I am very much against having the same heat cap for all mechs, that makes no sense, since not all mechs are the same. Some mechs just need to run hotter, especially energy only mechs which have no choice to use ballistics.

Edited by Khobai, 27 August 2018 - 05:36 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 04:12 PM, said:

First, let's get one thing straight. Decreasing the power of alphas =/= magically increasing skill levels. People complain about alphas being devoid of skill but I see a lot of people who are absolutely horrendous playing with them so if they don't take much skill to play, why are so many people bad at them :thinking_man:.

Second, increasing heat's effectiveness at limiting damage doesn't change how you manage heat, just how many (or what type in the case of capacity) you can effectively use. This means the pacing of the game is changed and that can be a bad thing, after all forcing chain fire effectively makes this game like any other standard shooter in that you can only fire one gun at a time (and would have drastic impact on the effective tactics).

Third, there seems to be a lot of hate about cover being used. Cover being important means positioning being important which implies that tactics and strats actually matter. If tactics and strats don't matter, then this game just boils down to DPS facerushing each other on a flat map with open terrain and who does it better.

Tlords, on 27 August 2018 - 05:11 PM, said:

hm.... I see what your saying...

Alphas require skill, increasing heat management means chain fire, and cover is important.

What if we could make it so firing weapons in groups equaled heat management (not chain fire, just no huge alphas), and heat management is what separated the skilled form the unskilled - would that take care of your concerns?

I'm not hating on cover. Far from it. Cover is extremely important, and expertise in its use comes with an increase in skill. What I'm hating on, is that I pilot my stock DWF Prime (2 ERLL, 2 MPulse, and a UAC/5 on each arm, plus a left-shoulder LRM 10), I step around cover to shoot two of the ERLL, and I'm suddenly missing a side torso. I move to the other side of the cover, so I can try to shoot the two ERLL on the other arm, and I lose the other side torso and die. At the end of a match like that, I've typically done about 120 dmg, and most of that is from the LRM 10. That 'mech, with that loadout, is supposed to be the definition of ****-your-pants terrifying, and yet it pales in comparison to the customized high-alpha builds that we're fighting over on this forum. That build also is the epitome of heat management. It requires chaining the ERLL (I fire them in grouped pairs based on L/R, so I can try not to shoot friendlies in the back, or waste heat into cover), foregoing the ERLL entirely when enemies get within range of the MPulse, and managing the UAC/5's and LRM 10 as backups when even the MPulse are running too hot.

Or, I can buy a Mad Cat Mk II, put two heavy large, two ERML, and two gauss rifles all on group 1, pop out of cover, hold up the gauss charge, and release at the end of the laser burn, saying "buh bye!" to the side torso or leg that I was just shooting at.

I'm fairly certain that everyone here has fond memories of playing MechWarrior 2 (where you could typically fire a laser about three times before you had to cool off), MechWarrior 3, (where if you fired six large lasers at once you would explode on the spot without shutting down and waiting for it, but if you fired two you'd be cold again within a half-second), or MechWarrior 4, where you literally fight on a coverless beach against 10 Jade Falcon Elite Mechwarriors with yourself and your 7 other pilots, and have to beat Star Colonel Aisa Thastus in Zellbrigen. If that was MWO, facing down a Mad Cat Mk II, a Mad Cat, a Nova Cat, three Hellbringers, and four Mad Dogs, you would be hit with two Gauss Rifles from the Mad Cat Mk II, and more heavy and ER lasers than you could have imagined possible from each and every one of the remaining 'mechs. It would only take two of them to focus one target and burn right through the CT and out the back side (64 alpha each, for the Loki's, alone), and your rag-tag group of mercenaries would be dead on the beach before you could say "whuh?"

Yes, cover is important. But for slow, ponderous, 100 tonners, being able to charge across open ground is also important. My Dire Wolf and Atlas should each be able to march straight up to a Mad Cat Mk II and punch it in the nose. Where MWO currently stands, "if you blink, you die".

[Y E O N N E]

You can also take your DWF, put on two Gauss, two ERLL, and six ERML and blow away the CT on that same Mad Cat Mk. II.

The DWF can be terrifying, just not with stock builds. Nothing in this game is terrifying with stock builds and I don't think I really care about that.

MechWarrior multiplayer has never once been informed by BattleTech lore.

[C337Skymaster]

Khobai, on 27 August 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

heat management will never be a proper skill as long theres no penalty for constantly riding your heat high

players should be incentivized more to keep their heat low and not constantly ride it high. Mechs should at least suffer a speed penalty if their heat is high. You should have to give something up to ride your heat at like 90% constantly.

I would be okay with speed penalty for high heat as well as a variable heat cap (different heat caps for each weight class/mech instead of a universal heat cap of 50 for all mechs). But I am very much against having the same heat cap for all mechs, that makes no sense, since not all mechs are the same. Some mechs just need to run hotter, especially energy only mechs which have no choice to use ballistics.

Unfortunately, the PTS is showing light 'mechs to be in greater need of heat efficiency buffs, but tonnage-dependent heat caps is going to see higher heat caps for Heavies and Assaults (where is a light supposed to soak up all that extra heat? It violates the laws of physics for 20 tons of steel to sink more heat than 100 tons of steel). Even across the board is equitable, actually benefits light 'mechs because they don't carry as many heat-generating weapons as assault 'mechs do, so they won't be generating as much heat in the first place, and fits with the original Table Top rules that this game is based on, and which we all try to honor, within reason.

I am totally on board with the high heat penalties, though. That same TT heat scale came with penalties pretty much right from the bottom of the chart, as soon as you exceeded the capacity of your heat sinks, you took penalties, and those penalties were represented in MW3 and MW4 quite well. (I only ever got to play MW2 Titanium Edition and they took the heat effects away for some unknown reason, so if you overrode and then ramped the heat way up past the red-line, you could just keep shooting and nothing bad would happen).

I would love it if a Loki stepped around cover, dunked a huge Alpha, ran his heat up to 90%, and then found himself stuck there until his heat dropped back to 70% before he could start moving again. Honestly, I think this would have been a lot easier to implement prior to Engine Desync, because all PGI would need to code is an inverse relationship between heat and engine size (so at 50% heat, your "engine size" is down 10 points. At 60%, down 30 points. And so on. Or maybe a percent, since the Urbie's engine only starts at 60 anyway ). Now they have to code in each individual maneuverability attribute and tie it to heat.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

C337Skymaster, on 27 August 2018 - 05:54 PM, said:

I'm not hating on cover. Far from it. Cover is extremely important, and expertise in its use comes with an increase in skill. What I'm hating on, is that I pilot my stock DWF Prime (2 ERLL, 2 MPulse, and a UAC/5 on each arm, plus a left-shoulder LRM 10), I step around cover to shoot two of the ERLL, and I'm suddenly missing a side torso.

First, sounds like you are piloting wrong if the minute you step out you are missing a side, that or you don't have the aim to punish those that do step out against you. The Whale is not for beginning or even some of the experienced players, it has a very high skill floor.

Second, this game isn't balanced around stock nor should it be because just like in TT there is always some mech that is simply more optimized and thus more effective for the tonnage/bv whatever.

Third, as Yeonne pointed out you can do a slightly beefier version of the famed Deathstrike and just obliterate things that look at you. Even better, take dakka and do the above but better. The Whale is one of my pet mechs so it isn't a slouch when you pilot it right, or take something that isn't stock.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2018 - 06:10 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 27 August 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

heat management will never be a proper skill as long theres no penalty for constantly riding your heat high

This makes zero sense, they only difference between a penalties world and a no penalties world is one is a soft cap while the other is a hard cap. They both have turning points that make say "do not cross this threshold", one is just a tad bit more immersive than the other. Penalties don't magically make heat management "skillful", they just change the dynamic a bit more (create a bit of immersion and create a more snowball effect on mechs that are heat capped easily).

Khobai, on 27 August 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

Some mechs just need to run hotter, especially energy only mechs which have no choice to use ballistics.

I'm in agreement here, some mechs should get heat cap quirks just like some should get dissipation quirks.

[C337Skymaster]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 August 2018 - 05:58 PM, said:

You can also take your DWF, put on two Gauss, two ERLL, and six ERML and blow away the CT on that same Mad Cat Mk. II.

The DWF can be terrifying, just not with stock builds. Nothing in this game is terrifying with stock builds and I don't think I really care about that.

MechWarrior multiplayer has never once been informed by BattleTech lore.

Yes, but that's not Battletech, and that's not fun. Battletech's heart and soul comes from the wide variety of flavors, and when every 'mech is running laser/gauss spam, that's taking all the other flavors out, and just leaving Vanilla. People like Vanilla, but not all the time, and not as their only option. Sometimes they're in the mood for Rocky Road...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

C337Skymaster, on 27 August 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

Yes, but that's not Battletech, and that's not fun.

What does that even mean? The Whale's majority of builds is high powered direct fire death machine. Just because it isn't actually a stock build doesn't mean it violates the spirit of the mech.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

This makes zero sense, they only difference between a penalties world and a no penalties world is one is a soft cap while the other is a hard cap. They both have turning points that make say "do not cross this threshold", one is just a tad bit more immersive than the other. Penalties don't magically make heat management "skillful", they just change the dynamic a bit more (create a bit of immersion and create a more snowball effect on mechs that are heat capped easily).


I'm in agreement here, some mechs should get heat cap quirks just like some should get dissipation quirks.

makes perfect sense because thats how it works in battetech

in battletech you suffer cumulative penalties as long as your heat remains above a certain threshold

the reason battletech has heat penalties is the same reason MWO needs heat penalties: It rewards people who are able to keep their heat lower while punishing people who constantly run their mech in the red.

by offsetting higher heat with heat penalties you make heat management into an actual skill. suddenly people have to weigh the consequences of riding their heat, instead of it being an automatic behavior.

im not saying that heat penalties should be absolutely crippling or anything. just that there should be some penalty for constantly running your mech at 80%+ heat. you shouldnt be rewarded for constantly riding your heat at high levels; that behavior should be discouraged. not rewarded.

Edited by Khobai, 27 August 2018 - 06:55 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

C337Skymaster, on 27 August 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

Yes, but that's not Battletech, and that's not fun. Battletech's heart and soul comes from the wide variety of flavors, and when every 'mech is running laser/gauss spam, that's taking all the other flavors out, and just leaving Vanilla. People like Vanilla, but not all the time, and not as their only option. Sometimes they're in the mood for Rocky Road...

Everything isn't laser and Gauss spam, though, there are plenty of ballistics and missiles to go around. There are plenty of off-meta 'Mechs that remain deadly effective in the normal game modes without bringing the bread-and-butter loadouts of UAC boat, laser boat, and missile-boat. What matters is that your weapons have synergy together and that you build the infrastructure in to support them. You have a LRM10 just taking up space and sucking up tonnage and slots that could be used to better cool your lasers or feed your autocannons (or that could be used to bring bigger autocannons). I have a Marauder 5D that I adore and it runs 2 Snubs, 2SRM6s, 3MedLas, and an XL350 with JJs and about as many DHS as a MAD can hope to fit regardless of loadout (17 out of 18 or 19); all of the weapons work in the same range, it hops so it can maximize the benefit of front-loaded damage of the Snubs and SRMs, and the lasers give it extra punch when the opportunity presents. Not at all meta, works just fine in QP.

All that said, even in BattleTech the boring boats were stronger than bracket builds.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 27 August 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

makes perfect sense because thats how it works in battetech

you suffer cumlative penalties as long as your heat remains above a certain threshold

That doesn't mean heat management magically becomes a skill which is what I was referring to as not making sense.

[C337Skymaster]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

First, sounds like you are piloting wrong if the minute you step out you are missing a side, that or you don't have the aim to punish those that do step out against you. The Whale is not for beginning or even some of the experienced players, it has a very high skill floor. Second, this game isn't balanced around stock nor should it be because just like in TT there is always some mech that is simply more optimized and thus more effective for the tonnage/bv whatever. Third, as Yeonne pointed out you can do a slightly beefier version of the famed Deathstrike and just obliterate things that look at you. Even better, take dakka and do the above but better. The Whale is one of my pet mechs so it isn't a slouch when you pilot it right, or take something that isn't stock.

Oh, I've done well in stock builds of the Dire Wolf, myself. Frequently getting 600 dmg games, occasionally getting over 800 dmg, and once getting 1100 in a stock DWF-A. (I found myself in a good flank position and nobody seemed to notice me).

But that was all before Civil War tech, and long before Engine Desync. A lot has changed since then.

My first DWF in MWO was the -W variant, which, once I got it figured out, was actually extremely strong. But it required switching between the long-ranged and short-ranged weapons on the fly. The control challenge is what makes it fun. 8x UAC/2's is entertaining for a little while, but it's not nearly the challenge and entertainment of 4x UAC/2's, two ERPPCs, two MPulse, one ERSL, and one LBX10. [DWF-B].

And there's nothing about "piloting wrong" or "bad aim". There is, however, the difference of two ERLL and an LRM 10, with the other two ERLL and the two UAC/5's planned for 2 seconds later, and the return fire of two Gauss, two heavy large, and four ER Medium lasers, all at exactly the same time. (Or two Heavy Gauss and a bunch of Medium lasers. Those need to be one-at-a-time).

Or the fact that my NVidia GTX 980M can only render 7 frames per second while getting hit with missiles or ballistics...

Edited by C337Skymaster, 27 August 2018 - 06:57 PM.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 06:47 PM, said:

That doesn't mean heat management magically becomes a skill which is what I was referring to as not making sense.

actually it does make it more of a skill. because you have to weigh the consequences of constantly running hot against the benefits of not constantly running hot.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 27 August 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

actually it does make it more of a skill. because you have to weigh the consequences of constantly running hot against the benefits of not constantly running hot.

Again, that's why it is a soft cap because almost all of those are going to be inconsequential, just like they were in MW4 and the benefits of not running hot will almost never override not doing damage until a certain condition is met and that is most likely going to be static.

[Khobai]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 07:06 PM, said:

Again, that's why it is a soft cap because almost all of those are going to be inconsequential, just like they were in MW4 and the benefits of not running hot will almost never override not doing damage until a certain condition is met and that is most likely going to be static.

If its so inconsequential that people wont care, then theres absolutely no harm in adding heat penalties.

Having an inconsequential penalty is still better than having no penalty as far as im concerned.

Because right now theres zero incentive to keep your heat lower at all. Having some incentive is better than having no incentive at all.

So your argument doesnt really make sense. Youre basically saying there shouldnt be a penalty because people wont care about the penalty. Well thats all the more reason there should be a penalty...

unless youre admitting that theres situations where the speed loss might not be entirely inconsequential... which also only serves to validate why we should have heat penalties.

so I mean either way, why not have heat penalties? either people wont care at all. or they will care.

Edited by Khobai, 27 August 2018 - 07:23 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Khobai, on 27 August 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

makes perfect sense because thats how it works in battetech

in battletech you suffer cumulative penalties as long as your heat remains above a certain threshold

the reason battletech has heat penalties is the same reason MWO needs heat penalties: It rewards people who are able to keep their heat lower while punishing people who constantly run their mech in the red.

by offsetting higher heat with heat penalties you make heat management into an actual skill. suddenly people have to weigh the consequences of riding their heat, instead of it being an automatic behavior.

im not saying that heat penalties should be absolutely crippling or anything. just that there should be some penalty for constantly running your mech at 80%+ heat. you shouldnt be rewarded for constantly riding your heat at high levels; that behavior should be discouraged. not rewarded.

Funny how these conversations swing. On this I agree with Khobai. Heat penalties shouldn't simply be structure damage after you hit your heat threshold. There were mobility penalties that were very minor, but started at very low heat, and progressed to be absolutely crippling at extreme heat. At the same time, you suffered penalties to your aiming (ideally this would mean that as soon as you fire your laser bursts and try to fire your gauss rifles, the gauss shots run a higher risk of missing wide of the target because your targeting computer can't focus. In MWO, the best PGI can do is some sort of reticle shake, which doesn't actually make sense to have, since they don't have cone of fire).

https://i1.wp.com/ww...ecord_Sheet.jpg

For anyone who's unfamiliar, look at the boxes in the lower right corner of the page. These penalties kick in when heat exceeds what the heat sinks can hold (1 heat per standard heat sink, or 2 heat per double). So taking this chart to its fullest, as soon as this Dragon fires 10 heat, its heat sinks are saturated. At 15 heat, it takes a hit to its mobility. At 18 heat, it takes a hit to its aim. At 24 heat, it attempts to shut down the 'mech, which must be overridden (and which should be easy to override at that low heat level). At 29 heat, it begins to run the risk of an ammo cookoff, which could destroy the whole 'mech. At 40 heat, the pilot no longer has the option to override and the 'mech WILL shut down. Where each of these things kicks in, the chances of it happening start out low, and become greater with increasing heat. This heat scale is where we get our current heat cap of 70 or 80: two for each double heat sink, plus 30 for this heat scale, but without any of the penalties displayed on this heat scale.

So honestly, any Clan 'mech that has 25 double heat sinks should be trying to shut down when it hits 64 heat, and should be cooking off ammunition at random by 69 heat., all while the 'mech is moving more and more slowly, and losing more and more maneuverability. That same 'mech would be free of all penalties at anything below 55 heat.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 27 August 2018 - 07:51 PM.