Jump to content

Controversial Topic For Pts: Fixing Gauss...?


19 replies to this topic

#1 Ragedog4

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 87 posts

Posted 26 August 2018 - 01:37 PM

I would Like to know ALL of your personal solution to fix Gauss. Give all the ideas, lets talk about pros and cons for each one.

Now because of 2.0 and 2.1 PTS, a lot have been bringing up the mostly good direction with the changes but also bringing up a issue of Gauss still hurting the Balance because its 15 dmg long range with only 1 heat.

Im not sure of the anwser, however I do like what Bjorn_Juma8877 on Kanajashi's recent video's comments said: "What if the charge time on the gauss generates a certain base heat until released? Like JJ's but charge up vs burn time. For the capacitation of the energy built up for the shot." (https://youtu.be/DlHkS-n2o0s)

Its like the Charge before the shot creates some heat but when fired it cools down. This would Give heat if you fire your lasers as you charge or have heat built when you fire your Gauss and lasers at the same time.

Some have said the heat should be for Gauss...like 4, maybe H.Gauss 5-6 heat, and L. Gauss a heat of 2-3*. So if you only have Gauss or H.Gauss firing with no other weapons, then it doesn't matter, giving your fun Gauss stand alone builds still your heavy shots, but prevent the high Aplha Energy and Gauss builds a tad nerf to balance things out, etc etc.

What are YOUR ideas. I want to know. Because like I said, I DONT KNOW the anwser on this one. I am really interested what YOU think.

*(For the love of God, please give Light Gauss a increase of DMG to 10 so we actually want to use it, its just so much tonnage for so little success in weaponry).

*Edit: Just so you know, this is the first time since I joined way back before Founders Beta that I am accepting the idea of nerfing Gauss. I thought they were fine until a lot of you convinced me otherwise for the sake of balance and game play so...yes, your opinion matters with this.

Edited by Ragedog4, 26 August 2018 - 01:40 PM.


#2 Sable Dove

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 1,003 posts

Posted 26 August 2018 - 02:37 PM

Reduce the max gauss charge to one at a time. If that's not enough, make it so firing other weapons will disrupt the charge. These both discourage the use of more than one gauss, and the latter also prevents it from being used in an alpha with other weapons.

If both ideas are done, gauss weaponry may need a small buff; lower cooldown, maybe, but for a zero-heat weapon, I'm not sure this is too far.

Another option is that the gauss rifles generate heat when they're charged but not fired. All that energy has to go somewhere, and this would at least keep people from maintaining the charge pretty much indefinitely. I don't like this idea as much, but it's an idea.

#3 Ragedog4

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 87 posts

Posted 26 August 2018 - 03:41 PM

So here is something interesting. An actual Gauss Rifle (What is called a Rail Gun) actually produces so much heat it has issues of melting internal components. So Gauss DOES have heat. A LOT. And it is produced as it is CHARGED. Perhaps we should do a charged heat of...lets say 4...and it stays charged with that 4 until you release it. I know its against Lore but that would make it more of a practical logic of why it has heat. *shrug*

Edited by Ragedog4, 26 August 2018 - 03:50 PM.


#4 Josh Seles

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 163 posts

Posted 26 August 2018 - 10:23 PM

I'm not opposed to giving Gauss more heat, maybe 4 or 5.

What I'm actually interested in is the possibility of removing the charge-ups. What I wouldn't mind seeing is this:
- much longer reloads (like 5.5 to 6 seconds at the shortest for Light Gauss and longer for more powerful Gauss Rifles)
- diminishing returns: slightly longer reloads the more Gauss Rifles are mounted
- 4 or 5 heat as an instant heat spike when fired like with PPCs. Probably more heat for H-Gauss and maybe C-Gauss.
- IS Gauss lightened to 14 tons (from the current 15) to help narrow the Clan advantage.

Also, Light Gauss dealing 10 dmg? Yes please.
Even if these changes were in a PTS first.

Edited for better English.

Edited by Josh Seles, 26 August 2018 - 10:26 PM.


#5 Morte Nilsum

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Survivor
  • 45 posts

Posted 27 August 2018 - 08:43 AM

I'm a sucker for simple solutions. Increase the weight so that it can't be paired with so many other weapons, or reduce damage so that it's not so deadly.

#6 MechaBattler

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • Survivor
  • 4,842 posts

Posted 27 August 2018 - 09:27 AM

I'm for giving it heat. It would fit with the lower heat cap changes. And it's a simple change.

#7 Cypherdrene

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 81 posts
  • LocationCabo

Posted 27 August 2018 - 09:28 AM

My poll pretty much proves everyone wants a form of Gauss nerf, heat seems to be the most viable while limiting 1 gauss charge comes in second. However, this is only IF 45-50 heat cap makes it to live, if heat cap were to remain at 40 it'd limit the overall damage that mech can do per alpha, so no nerf necessary.

Edited by Cypherdrene, 27 August 2018 - 09:28 AM.


#8 Morte Nilsum

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Survivor
  • 45 posts

Posted 27 August 2018 - 09:54 AM

Set the limit to 1 gauss charge instead of 2 is a decent idea, I like it.

#9 Quicksilver Kalasa

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Professional
  • The Professional
  • 10,744 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:13 AM

View PostMorte Nilsum, on 27 August 2018 - 09:54 AM, said:

Set the limit to 1 gauss charge instead of 2 is a decent idea, I like it.

It's also dumb, because it pretty much removes Gauss from the meta rather than curtailing their power.

#10 Morte Nilsum

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Survivor
  • 45 posts

Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:16 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 10:13 AM, said:

It's also dumb, because it pretty much removes Gauss from the meta rather than curtailing their power.

Not really, it just reduces the power of the meta, which is kind of the point. When you think about it, it is exactly curtailing their power. 30 PPFLD becomes 15 for GR, and 50 becomes 25 for HGR. That solves a lot of problems actually.

Edited by Morte Nilsum, 27 August 2018 - 10:20 AM.


#11 Quicksilver Kalasa

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Professional
  • The Professional
  • 10,744 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:23 AM

View PostMorte Nilsum, on 27 August 2018 - 10:16 AM, said:

Not really, it just reduces the power of the meta, which is kind of the point. When you think about it, it is exactly curtailing their power. 30 PPFLD becomes 15 for GR, and 50 becomes 25 for HGR. That solves a lot of problems actually.

It doesn't reduce the power of the meta, it shifts it and in turn it removes Gauss from being really being viable in pairs because of how unwieldy it becomes. This problem ALL stems from the fact that Gauss needs special mechanics to keep to limit its damage output because it doesn't follow the same path that all other weapons (outside MGs) follow with regards to heat.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 August 2018 - 10:25 AM.


#12 Reno Blade

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blade
  • The Blade
  • 3,346 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 27 August 2018 - 01:35 PM

It's perfectly enough if the current Gauss would generate more heat, as it would fall from the throne of Gauss+Laser Vomit being the top.
Having 3-5 heat on Gauss and about 5-6 heat on HGauss doesnt sound like much when considering an uAC10 is about 3.5 heat and a AC20 has 7 heat, but it is enough to impair the performance of the lasers that have perfect synergy with that low-heat weapon.

Also the Ghost Heat of PPC + Gauss can be reduced too, or even removed, as it would have the same effect.
e.g. 2x cGauss + 1x cERPPC would be something like 5+5+15 (4 more on each cGauss)
e.g. 1x Gauss + 2x PPC would be something like 4 + 9.5 + 9.5 (3 more than before)

#13 Ragedog4

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 87 posts

Posted 27 August 2018 - 02:23 PM

I have to agree I like the Idea of Heat way more than other ideas. Because I like the Builds that are ONLY duel Gauss. 30 Sniper Damage. Makes sense. But cutting it down so you only can have one would hurt Heavy mechs the most since they are the ones who can only carry two Gauss, like the stealth Thanatos (which that variant really is not good without it.)

However with some heat it then hurts the Laser Vom that pairs WITH the Gauss because thats the point.

Maybe if some heat does not fix it, then we have to find a way where paring with laser vom gives a large neg impact. Like maybe Gauss just cannot be fired with other weapons? The charge makes it impossible to fire anything else?? Then once you fire you can fire everything else giving longer expose time???

Edited by Ragedog4, 27 August 2018 - 02:23 PM.


#14 Quicksilver Kalasa

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Professional
  • The Professional
  • 10,744 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 27 August 2018 - 02:43 PM

View PostRagedog4, on 27 August 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

Maybe if some heat does not fix it, then we have to find a way where paring with laser vom gives a large neg impact. Like maybe Gauss just cannot be fired with other weapons? The charge makes it impossible to fire anything else?? Then once you fire you can fire everything else giving longer expose time???

Depends on your definition of "fixed", the point is to reduce the effectiveness of Gauss when combined with lasers. Gauss and lasers covers eachothers weaknesses. Laser vomit has some of the lowest sustained DPS of any weapon while Gauss has consistent DPS (because heat has negligible impact on it). Gauss doesn't have that good of punch these days due to all the survivability that's been added to mechs, so lasers help add significant amounts of damage to the alpha with minimal investment. Adding heat to Gauss, especially if you added AC20 levels of heat to it, suddenly ruins the heat neutral and consistent DPS. You can no longer fire with impunity when heat capped. There should be no need to add any extra mechanics (in fact some should be able to be removed) because that alone should mitigate the main reason why Gauss is used with high heat weapons.

#15 Ragedog4

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 87 posts

Posted 27 August 2018 - 03:44 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 27 August 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

Depends on your definition of "fixed", the point is to reduce the effectiveness of Gauss when combined with lasers. Gauss and lasers covers eachothers weaknesses. Laser vomit has some of the lowest sustained DPS of any weapon while Gauss has consistent DPS (because heat has negligible impact on it). Gauss doesn't have that good of punch these days due to all the survivability that's been added to mechs, so lasers help add significant amounts of damage to the alpha with minimal investment. Adding heat to Gauss, especially if you added AC20 levels of heat to it, suddenly ruins the heat neutral and consistent DPS. You can no longer fire with impunity when heat capped. There should be no need to add any extra mechanics (in fact some should be able to be removed) because that alone should mitigate the main reason why Gauss is used with high heat weapons.

Ya, I should of said "If heat is not enough" or "if we dont use heat. But ya either way I think either heat or not being able to fire weapons at the same time would be a good way to go around this.

#16 Kalleballe

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 239 posts

Posted 28 August 2018 - 12:21 AM

Just replace arm armor with structure on offending chassis so the gauss explode like it is supposed to.

#17 Khobai

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 22,846 posts
  • LocationStranded on Isla Nublar

Posted 01 September 2018 - 01:53 AM

Increase gauss heat to 7-8.

Then remove gauss chargeup and increase gauss/PPC ghost heat limit to 3 so it can be used with PPCs again.


View PostReno Blade, on 27 August 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

Having 3-5 heat on Gauss and about 5-6 heat on HGauss doesnt sound like much when considering an uAC10 is about 3.5 heat and a AC20 has 7 heat, but it is enough to impair the performance of the lasers that have perfect synergy with that low-heat weapon.


7-8 heat sounds better for Gauss to me.

Gauss should not be less heat than an AC20. Considering that Gauss can do 15 damage at a significantly longer range than the AC20 is capable of.

AC20 is 6 heat. So 7-8 is where Gauss should be set at.

Edited by Khobai, 01 September 2018 - 01:56 AM.


#18 xe N on

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,315 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 02 September 2018 - 06:40 AM

Sarna:

Introduced in 2590 by the Terran Hegemony, the Gauss Rifle utilizes a series of electromagnets to propel slugs of ferrous nickel-iron alloy at extremely high velocities, making it a devastating and lethal long-range weapon.[5] So powerful is it that one hit from a Gauss Rifle is capable of killing nearly any Light 'Mech.[6] Unlike most traditional ballistic weapons, the Gauss Rifle does not use combustible propellant, so its firing generates very little heat. However, the sheer mass and bulk of the weapon limits its applications.[5] The Gauss Rifle also has fairly heavy power requirements which, if used at the same time as similarly energy-intensive systems, forces the unit's computer to cycle and allocate power to meet the demands. If for example a pilot tried to fire both a Gauss Rifle and several lasers at once, there would be a delay in the time it would take to get the entire salvo off.[7]

and

Heat 1[3]
Damage 15[3]
Minimum Range 2[3]

Gauss Rifle:
- remove charge up
- Gauss rifles cannot be fired with other weapons (including other Gauss rifles). After a gauss rifle is fired, there is a 0.5 sec window that prevent to fire other weapons
- Give Gauss-Rifle a minium range of 60-90 m

Clan Gauss Rifle:
- Charge up stays (clanners are more skilled and can handle that Posted Image)
- Gauss rifles cannot be fired with other weapons (including other Gauss rifles). After a gauss rifle is fired, there is a 0.5 sec window that prevent to fire other weapons
- Give Gauss-Rifle a minium range of 60-90 m

Light Gauss:
- remove charge up
- everything else stays

Heavy Gauss rifle:
- Charge up stays
- Heavy Gauss rifles cannot be fired with other weapons. After a gauss rifle is fired, there is a 0.5 sec window that prevent to fire other weapons
- remove screen shake

Edited by xe N on, 02 September 2018 - 06:51 AM.


#19 Reno Blade

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blade
  • The Blade
  • 3,346 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 02 September 2018 - 11:41 AM

I guess the base heat could be pushed past the 3 heat for Gauss.

But where I disagree strongly is the charge.
Gauss Charge provides some flavor, a bit of a downside/trade off and also simulates the "min-range" of BT.
Having some kind of damage min-range zone like the PPCs does not make sense for a Gauss, but having the charge on the gauss is exactly providing the "difficulty" modifier in melee range that the BT table top had.

With that said, I would personally aim for something like this:
1 heat for LGauss,
4 heat for Gauss,
5 for CGauss and
7 for HGauss
keep charge (personally no-go to remove charge)
keep all other stats (explosion, ammo, cooldown, velocity...)
keep GH for PPC+Gauss

and in addition also tweak AC10s and 20s for the IS to have a bit less heat overall and less hps with higher dps (maybe 15% less), maybe reduce AC20 cooldown and heat both by 10-20% overall to make it more worth, but keep Gauss long cooldown
and we can even think of tweaking PPC's velocity/heat/cd for a small buff.

#20 Khobai

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 22,846 posts
  • LocationStranded on Isla Nublar

Posted 05 September 2018 - 11:14 PM

4-5 heat isnt enough. It needs to be at least AC20 levels of heat if not higher. because gauss does 15 damage at almost three times the range of the AC20. theres no way 4-5 heat is balanced for that capability. 7-8 heat is more appropriate for gauss. clan gauss should be even hotter yet since its 3 tons lighter.

also heavy gauss needs to be limited to fire one at a time or have substantial ghost heat when firing two, like AC20. AC20 and heavy gauss should also be buffed to work better as singleton weapons.

Light Gauss needs 10 damage too.

Edited by Khobai, 05 September 2018 - 11:19 PM.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users