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Alpha Balance Pts Results And Roadmap

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#241 Chados

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 09:26 AM

View PostJonathan8883, on 19 September 2018 - 05:40 AM, said:

Hey Chris, when is the lock-on nerf for missiles under 500m (cone change) going to be un-done?

I wish I had an easy way to take video in game. I have stopped using locking missiles most of the time since the nerf, but I still have at least a half dozen examples where I have the reticle midway between the edges of the target box and the middle of the box, and have not been able to get my mech to even start locking missiles on. Light mechs at short range are nearly impossible to get a lock on, unless their pilots are stupid. It's killed most of my Streak brawling boats, including my "most fun mech ever" Mishipeshu (2 SSRM4, 3 MPL, ECM).

I also am not seeing LRMs used at short range any more - only at long range. The LRMpocalypse continues, but it's only from the back line - the most toxic form of LRMing to the game. Bringing my Catapult up to the 400m mark (formerly optimal) means that I can't get or maintain locks reliably against any but the slowest enemies.

I haven't even tried my ATM mechs...too discouraging.


We warned Chris that this would be the result of the Artemis and lock cone nerfs. Repeatedly. And it all fell on thoroughly deaf ears.

Working as intended, I suppose. All but the worst kind of LRMing removed from the game. SSRMs and ATMs also removed from the game. Artemis is a useless waste of tonnage. Catapults are beneath trash tier now what with the missile nerfs and the armor nerfs from 2016. Everything Chris said they didn’t want to do, they did.

I dropped locking missiles other than an occasional LRM15 on Clan assault mechs for backup when I need indirect fire, because they’re armored enough that you can afford to stare. Otherwise, I stripped Artemis and on IS mechs run MRMs or non-Artemis SRMs exclusively.

Edited by Chados, 19 September 2018 - 09:35 AM.


#242 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 10:28 AM

View PostJonathan8883, on 19 September 2018 - 05:40 AM, said:

Light mechs at short range are nearly impossible to get a lock on, unless their pilots are stupid.

Good? "Hey my hard counter against one of the worst weight classes in the game isn't a hard counter anymore" Let me play the world's smallest violin for you?

#243 Rydiak Randborir

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 10:05 PM

October Patch needs the DHS heat dissipation rate dropped down to .20 heat per second (same as what PTS 2.1 had) from .22 heat per second. When combined with the new clan laser damage values, that would nerf clan laser vomit's overall effectiveness rather than buff it (October Patch has very high neutral heat DPS for laser vomit while not nerfing its maximum damage output as much, if at all, compared to PTS 2.1) in comparison to builds that don't boat heatsinks as much (e.g. ballistic or missile builds, and to a lesser degree IS laser vomit).

For example, a 2 UAC5 1 UAC10 Black Widow with skill tree has the following sustained (neutral heat) DPS values:
Live - 5.88 sDPS
PTS 2.1 - 6.00 sDPS (102.0% compared to Live)
October Patch with .22 DHS - 6.50 sDPS (110.5% compared to Live)
October Patch with .20 DHS - 6.00 sDPS (102.0% compared to Live)

and the following Damage Before Overheat values:
Live - 291.0 damage
PTS 2.1 - 288.7 damage (99.2% compared to Live)
October Patch with .22 DHS - 321.0 damage (110.3% compared to Live)
October Patch with .20 DHS - 290.4 damage (99.8% compared to Live)

A 2 HLL 4 ERML Hellbringer with skill tree has the following sustained (neutral heat) DPS values:
Live - 5.91 sDPS
PTS 2.1 - 6.99 sDPS (118.3% compared to Live)
October Patch with .22 DHS - 6.97 sDPS (117.9% compared to Live)
October Patch with .20 DHS - 6.33 sDPS (107.1% compared to Live)
October Patches include cHLL and cERML damage nerfs

and the following Damage Before Overheat Values:
Live - 229.4 damage
PTS 2.1 - 127.4 damage (55.5% compared to Live)
October Patch with .22 DHS - 224.4 damage (97.8% compared to Live)
October Patch with .20 DHS - 167.8 damage (73.1% compared to Live)
October Patches include cHLL and cERML damage nerfs

Comparing the two builds against each other, the Black Widow ballistic build has the following sustained DPS percentage values versus the Hellbringer energy build:
Live - 99.5%
PTS 2.1 - 85.8%
October Patch with .22 DHS - 93.3%
October Patch with .20 DHS - 94.8%

and the following Damage Before Overheat percentage values:
Live - 127%
PTS 2.1 - 227%
October Patch with .22 DHS - 143%
October Patch with .20 DHS - 173%


So if PGI wants to keep the heat capacity bonus of heatsinks in the October Patch, but still wants to limit the overall effectiveness of laser vomit in comparison to other builds and to Live laser vomit values, then they should at least return the DHS heat dissipation rate to that of PTS 2.1. And of course, because clan laser vomit mechs are able to boat more DHS than IS laser vomit mechs, this change would affect them more (especially since normal IS laser vomit weapons suffered no nerfs). I would support October Patch if PGI did that, as then the patch would be a decent enough compromise between all affected values.

Edit- DHS at .20 dissipation would also be better balanced against SHS, allowing SHS to have some builds where Damage Before Overheat is slightly higher than DHS (DHS still crushes SHS in sustained DPS) so as not to completely invalidate SHS as an edge-use item.

Edited by Rydiak, 20 October 2018 - 10:25 AM.


#244 Y E O N N E

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 02:38 PM

View PostRydiak, on 19 September 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:

Edit- DHS at .20 dissipation would also be better balanced against SHS, allowing SHS to have some builds where Damage Before Overheat is slightly higher than DHS (DHS still crushes SHS in sustained DPS) so as not to completely invalidate SHS as an edge-use item.


TBQH, leave the IS DHS at 0.22 and bring the Clan one down to 0.20. That would be a real start.

#245 PraetorGix

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 10:42 AM

I don't like the damage nerf to clan lasers without other balancing characteristics being added, like a slight duration buff. Some math on this thread shows that the overall performance remains pretty much as in live, so I guess we'll have to see, but I have the feeling clan mediums and heavy larges will massively drop out of use.

#246 Bud Crue

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 06:15 PM

Hey Chris,

While you are planning out the next several months of nerfs to all those mechs with "aggressive quirk assignments", can you do me a favor and go play all of the Jaggers for an evening and let me know how you can justify a mech that big, and with most of its weapons in the arms, but with only 32ish points of armor in each of those arms. Your weapons practically fall off when being glanced at by the enemy.

Back in the day I used to die from losing the CT, now I just get my arms blown off, the enemy laughs as I wander for a bit with 2 ML or whatever, and then they finish me off out of pity. Sad.

In order to avoid this fate the player is forced into a secondary roll of staying back and hoping to get a target of opportunity at range (else lose one or both arms to even some of the puniest of alphas...(do I really need over 60 points available in the legs but only 32 in the arms?)). It is the armor arrangement and lack thereof that is forcing the entire chassis into such a niche and singular role; and we all know how much you hate imposing such limitations on players. So please, give the Jaggers some armor love. As they are, they don't have many viable play styles and that's a damn shame.

#247 Nightbird

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 06:25 PM

Investing in Solaris is a bad idea, people hate responsibility for their loss;
PGI: we'll do it anyways
Buffing LRMs is a bad idea, it's boring for the user and frustrating for the victim;
PGI: we'll do it anyways
Buffing dissipation is a bad idea, TTK is already very low and will get lower;
PGI: we'll do it anyways

w/e

\_(ツ)_/¯

#248 Y E O N N E

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 07:11 PM

Don't forget the durability nerfs that will come at the same time as these damage output buffs!

#249 D V Devnull

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Posted 29 September 2018 - 06:24 AM

View PostChris Lowrey, on 06 September 2018 - 04:36 PM, said:

I want to start out with a big thank you for all who have participated and provided feedback over the various testing sessions.

Well, You're Welcome. I was actually kind of glad to get a chance to fight without a MatchMaker stomping me before matches began. Plus seeing weapons behave differently gives one a fresh outlook on a game's designs... B)

However, after reading your roadmap, I am left to ask a giant question. That happens to be...


Why aren't we getting a PTS 3.0 to help verify if this is really the right way to go?


...because after looking at the changes myself, it honestly does NOTHING to actually stop the 90+ Damage Gauss & Laser Alpha that people could be potentially upset about. You're barely knocking 7 points off it, while taking the sting out of the weapons when posed against the Inner Sphere's Mechs. Worse, it looks like you're trying to push some weapons into total disuse, as there's a breaking point when a Weapon's Heat exceeds 90% of the Damage, at which point people won't use the weapon anymore. Nobody wants to be penalized just for firing a single weapon, but that's what happens when a Heat Generation heavily exceeds the Damage Dealt. :(

Further, PTS 1.0 & 1.1 were grossly & severely hated by the Community in general, directly because it made the Inner Sphere into "Easy Mode", and the Clans into the equivalent of WORTHLESS PAPER. As it stands, they've taken too many nerfs to their Component & Equipment Health levels, and your current idea for changes does NOTHING to fix that. Like, why didn't you Buff the Health of Clan DHS and other things during those PTS 1.0 & 1.1 runs, anyway? When people take Inner Sphere Contracts for Faction Warfare, they want the Clan Mechs that they face to actually still be a challenge against them even when they're blowing it and mess up. The same even goes when they pick an Inner Sphere Mech and fight a Clan Mech in Quick Play! :wacko:

Next, PTS 2.0 was only partially liked by the Community because it made builds involving PPCs & MRMs (as well as various forms of Large Lasers) not really that usable. It was starting to go in the right direction, but it missed a few things regarding Ghost Heat that should have been checked in tandem. Perhaps even Heat Gen Buffs could have been pushed to PPCs and MRMs for that matter. I suspect if they had been, then it might have been a near-ace for stopping the problematic Gauss & Laser Alpha combo, all while leaving most any playstyle functional. :o

PTS 2.1 however was where you basically hit the mark properly. A flat Heat Limit, Good Heat Dissipation, and every weapon seemed to work properly. It could even shut down launching those troublesome Gauss & Laser Alpha combos without penalizing most every other playstyle out there. Firing something too big should indeed shut the Mech down, just like it used to back in games like MechWarrior 2&3 did. ^_^

So then I sat back, thinking... I asked myself, "How can I help Chris Lowrey balance MWO, but keep things like the '18 Damage C-HLL' and other things unaffected in terms of their Baseline Heat & Damage? Further, how can I help him make using DHS not still too mandatory? Even further, how can I help Balance this so that it never leaves things easy for the 'Elite-Type, Competitive-Class Players' up top against anyone of lesser skills?", and the following things then just dawned on me. What do you think of the following numbers...
  • Base Heat Bar increased to 45 (from 30)(I think this part works too, as you're bumping Capacity down below.)
  • ALL HeatSinks (Single & Double)
    Removed settings related to differences between Engine and External Heatsinks.(Again, I think this part works, as you're bumping Capacity & Dissipation down below.)
  • Heatsinks (This part changed slightly... It just didn't seem right to me.)
    Dissipation Increased to 0.15 (from 0.13)
    Heat Capacity reduced to 0.825 (from 1.3)
  • Inner Sphere Double Heatsinks (This part not changed from how you intend... I think it works.)
    Dissipation Increased to 0.22 (from 0.15)
    Heat Capacity reduced to 0.5 (from 1.5)
  • Clan Double Heatsinks (This part changed slightly... It just didn't seem right to me.)
    Dissipation Increased to 0.20 (from 0.15)
    Heat Capacity reduced to 0.5 (from 1.5)
  • Quirks (This part also not changed from how you intend... I think it works.)
    Corrective Heat Dissipation quirks on sub 250 engine 'Mechs will be generally phased out.
    Some quirks may remain depending on if we wish to keep a small amount of dissipation as a specific flavor or Omnipod perk.
...for Heat Management? To me, laying it out with those appears to make things "Balanced But Different" in the Grand Scheme of MWO's Game Design. Now onward beyond this, I then looked at Damage/'Heat Generation', as well as the Ghost Heat Penalties for the various Weapons. How does this set of numbers...
  • I.S. ER Large Laser
    Heat remains at 8
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL I.S. Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL I.S. Medium Lasers
    I.S. ER Large Lasers may now fire 4 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 5 or more.
  • I.S. Large Pulse Laser
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL I.S. Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL I.S. Medium Lasers
    I.S. Large Pulse Lasers may now fire 4 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 5 or more.
  • I.S. Standard Large Laser
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL I.S. Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL I.S. Medium Lasers
    I.S. Standard Large Lasers may now fire 4 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 5 or more.
  • Clan ER Large Laser
    Damage remains at 11
    Heat decreased to 10.5 (from 10.8)
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL Clan Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL Clan Medium & Small Lasers
    Clan ER Large Lasers may now fire 3 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 4 or more.
  • Clan ER Medium Laser
    Damage remains at 7
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL Clan Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL Clan Medium & Small Lasers
  • Clan Medium Pulse Laser
    Damage remains at 7 (possible outlook of Buff to 7.5 or 8, depending on performance in these circumstances)
    Heat remains at 4.75 (possible outlook of Nerf to 4.9 or 5.1, depending on IF Damage gets Buff)
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL Clan Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL Clan Medium & Small Lasers
  • Clan Heavy Large Laser
    Damage remains at 18 (possible outlook of Buff to 19 or 20, depending on performance in these circumstances)
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL Clan Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL Clan Medium & Small Lasers
    Clan Heavy Large Lasers may still only fire 2 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 3 or more.
  • Clan Large Pulse Laser
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL Clan Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL Clan Medium & Small Lasers
    Clan Large Pulse Lasers may now fire 3 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 4 or more.
...look to you in terms of Damage, Heat Generation, and Ghost Heat Penalty? Here, I tried to factor in PTS 1.0 & 1.1, directly because of the idea introduced to my mind about Ghost Heat Penalty adjustments. In the idea that these changes which I propose present in terms of situations, I've also factored in the troublesome Gauss & Laser Alpha combos that everyone's been talking about, and have been overdue to be stopped, but fully without leaving Pure Laser builds in some kind of unusable state. This will still allow mixing of Gauss & Lasers, but only to a more limited extent that blocks the largest bursts unless the Pilot wants to sit for a few eating a Penalty. Yes, people will have to learn better firing discipline in not mixing Large Lasers with Mediums (and in the case of Clans, Small Lasers), but at least this puts a stopper on most of the "single-Alpha, insta-delete backshots" and such that nobody likes. Further in turn, I've also taken a page out of the I.S. Ghost Heat Booklet about tuning the Clan Side to still maintain "Balanced But Different", yet without taking away the Clan Weapon Sting that should be felt when someone using an Inner Sphere Mech makes a big error. I further think & feel that these numbers all avoid the push into a situation where I.S. Mechs would have to lose their Durability Quirks and such, items which happen to give the I.S. their own flavor that I feel should still be there. This even leaves room for Medium Mechs on both sides to come into their own alongside ALL of the Other Weight Classes, as well as not leave the slower Light Mechs in an underpowered state, which makes an excellent plus for not Nerfing the Baseline Damage on all those individual Weapons via the batch set you originally Roadmap as. :D


Now, with all of this said, I also have to ask you why the "X-Pulse Lasers" were not introduced into the Inner Sphere Weapons Arsenal? They might have been able to pre-settle a lot of this mess before it even began. Further, in terms of Last Questions, why wasn't the Armor/Structure of ALL Mechs simply bumped up to around 2.5x to 3x what TableTop uses? It would have perfectly increased TTK to a reasonable extent without leaving matches to take all day long, allowed Mech Pilots to learn from their mistakes within a single match, and potentially promoted more Lance-based Operations versus the severe 'DeathBall'ing that we see now. Quite honestly, I would like to hear your thoughts on everything I've posted above in terms of a possible edit to your Roadmap, as well as these varied additional matters. I want to see MWO become totally fun again too, so please reply back and give me (and obviously everyone else here too) some return insight? :blink:

~Mr. D. V. "Finally getting a chance to ring in after 4 PTS Runs & 12.5 Pages of Discussion here..." Devnull





(p.s.: In case you're wondering, this post took me multiple hours to actually type. On top of that, it took quite some time to read through the whole thread, and about 10 to 14 days to reach enough mental thought to start typing. About 20 passes up and down the post later, here it is for your reading. So I'm really looking forward to understanding your thoughts, both from the Roadmap itself as well as how my proposal works in terms of any useful tweaks it might provide for your use!)





[One heck of an Additional Edit by Post Author for some formatting that totally nuked itself... UGH!]
[Also an Edit about 18 Hours Later by Post Author for a clarification they missed in the whole idea stack...and the ensuing formatting hell that got fixed again... Sorry about that!!!]

Edited by D V Devnull, 30 September 2018 - 12:24 AM.


#250 panzer1b

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:54 PM

Honestly i dont even understand the hate for lasers when they arent even that broken on live...

Id actually put massed dakka as the dominant strat in pubs since it has better range then any normal vomit mech (especially clam uac5s), has versatility and is very capable of brawling unlike vomit. It can actually sustain fire way better not to mention supress multiple people at the same time.

Seems that PGI has a hard-on for lasers and despite it being one of my fav mechs right now, doesnt do squat about the MCII-B and how its eating entire teams alive when played right. That and the entire MCII chassis is arguably the strongest assault in game, prefect hardpoints, good enough mobility stats, battlemech so no locked crap, and it can run every single meta assault loadout imaginable, namely dual gauss+lasers, 2uac10+2uac5 (which is flat out the most versatile dakka build there is) and even the strongest brawl build available to clan (and yes SRM+LBX is trash when it comes to damage focusing), UAC20+4-6 MPLs.

#251 D V Devnull

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 10:55 AM

View Postpanzer1b, on 02 October 2018 - 07:54 PM, said:

Honestly i dont even understand the hate for lasers when they arent even that broken on live...

Id actually put massed dakka as the dominant strat in pubs since it has better range then any normal vomit mech (especially clam uac5s), has versatility and is very capable of brawling unlike vomit. It can actually sustain fire way better not to mention supress multiple people at the same time.

Seems that PGI has a hard-on for lasers and despite it being one of my fav mechs right now, doesnt do squat about the MCII-B and how its eating entire teams alive when played right. That and the entire MCII chassis is arguably the strongest assault in game, prefect hardpoints, good enough mobility stats, battlemech so no locked crap, and it can run every single meta assault loadout imaginable, namely dual gauss+lasers, 2uac10+2uac5 (which is flat out the most versatile dakka build there is) and even the strongest brawl build available to clan (and yes SRM+LBX is trash when it comes to damage focusing), UAC20+4-6 MPLs.

Hi, panzer1b... Pardon me while I get into a rant here, as well as use some Capital Letters... Sorry for how harsh I come off sounding, as I'm not meaning to direct this in an angry tone... I think you'll still find it partially enlightening. :unsure:

The problem with Lasers is that to make them usable, they have to be able to do damage quickly. If they're forced into a 'Damage Over Time' role, the person firing them is exposed too long to have any chance of really doing any damage and/or surviving. If they're made too much 'Quick To Hit', some people can't react to them properly, particularly when the Ghost Heat Penalties aren't configured right. Unfortunately, when they're paired with Gauss Rifles, it ends up creating hyper-powerful builds that just rip away the battlefield, which of course can only be properly used by the very top players. But geez, do they use them to grand effect, all while the rest of us suffer. :(

This then brings us to Ballistics. You're right, they are insanely powerful on their own. Unfortunately, PGI can't seem to cause Recoil in the same way as it was in "MechWarrior 3", where you had to deal with it physically shifting the whole Mech when fired unless you had equal-force shifts on both sides at the same time. So your opponents can blind and shake you, and they usually don't have to put up with anything throwing their aim that they would have to fight to maintain alignment. This also makes the very top players untouchable, generally speaking. <_<

But then we have the problem that PGI is trying to Balance through Direct Nerfs to anything that an 'Elite-type, Competitive-Class Player' can easily abuse. Sadly, they don't understand the amplified effects that has against anyone of lesser skills, and how it just shuts down pretty much everyone below including new players. Now if I'm right (which I likely am, and that's frankly kind of sad in this case), that is NOT the effect that PGI really intended to have upon MWO in general, but that's what they keep doing to things. Topple against this the whole stack of issues with Missiles right now, the lack of 'Active Radar /w Passive Toggle' which the earlier MechWarrior Games had (AND "MechWarrior: Living Legends" HAS!!!) , and MWO is so far out of Balance that I'm beginning to think it will never recover. -_-

Also as a last note, there's been no posts from Chris Lowrey here in quite a while. Creepily enough, that's sending me all kinds of Red Warning Flags, the variety of which is startling. I have the bad feeling that PGI's Staff are unwilling to test their solution and get feedback before pushing it Live, as well as are sadly failing to be open to other reasonable solutions. Right now, what they're seeking to do is going to basically make life easy for the Inner Sphere Mech Pilots, totally trash the Clan Mech Pilots, ruin the Balance completely, and make Ballistics the only thing of value on the battlefields. I think we can all agree that's definitely NOT a MechWarrior game anymore, instead being more like "TitanFall" (without the Pilot's ability to hop out), or perhaps a "Call Of Duty" (but in big stompy robots, aka Mechs) variation of some kind. Now 2.5+ years ago, what MWO is turning into now is EXPLICITLY (AND IMPLICITLY) NOT what I came to play, and that may finally be the gong that drives me out the door forever. Unfortunately, the MechWarrior Series seems to be cursed with incarnations that for some reason or another are not maintainable for extended periods. :mellow:

~Mr. D. V. "Feeling like I'm chatting over a dead horse here... and pardon my usage of Caps!" Devnull





[One Edit about 10 Minutes Later by Post Author for something they missed in their initial posting.]

Edited by D V Devnull, 03 October 2018 - 11:04 AM.


#252 MechTech Dragoon

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 08:13 AM

Increased dissipation is great, and lower heat threshold on heatstinks is too.
But 45 is too high of a baseline cap if you are going to still have heatsinks increase capacity.

For mechs with just 10 doubles in the engine...they whent from a 50 heat cap with 2 dissipation/sec, to a 50 heat cap with 2.2 dissipation/sec.

For most mechs outside of high alpha, this is an increase in dps. And even for high alpha mechs, its a very very tiny change

If your direction is to increase TTK, this isn't doing it.

And i mean...90% of my mechs dont follow the whole high alpha thing, i prefer dps. Virtually every mech in my stable got buffed....I usually don't complain about that lol.

Either decrease the baseline heat cap, or remove the increase to heat cap provided by heatsinks.

People liked the high dissipation low cap model in the PTS sessions allot. This very barely moves towards that.

#253 MechWpnsTech

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Posted 16 October 2018 - 09:58 PM

View PostD V Devnull, on 29 September 2018 - 06:24 AM, said:

Well, You're Welcome. I was actually kind of glad to get a chance to fight without a MatchMaker stomping me before matches began. Plus seeing weapons behave differently gives one a fresh outlook on a game's designs... Posted Image

However, after reading your roadmap, I am left to ask a giant question. That happens to be...


Why aren't we getting a PTS 3.0 to help verify if this is really the right way to go?


...because after looking at the changes myself, it honestly does NOTHING to actually stop the 90+ Damage Gauss & Laser Alpha that people could be potentially upset about. You're barely knocking 7 points off it, while taking the sting out of the weapons when posed against the Inner Sphere's Mechs. Worse, it looks like you're trying to push some weapons into total disuse, as there's a breaking point when a Weapon's Heat exceeds 90% of the Damage, at which point people won't use the weapon anymore. Nobody wants to be penalized just for firing a single weapon, but that's what happens when a Heat Generation heavily exceeds the Damage Dealt. Posted Image

Further, PTS 1.0 & 1.1 were grossly & severely hated by the Community in general, directly because it made the Inner Sphere into "Easy Mode", and the Clans into the equivalent of WORTHLESS PAPER. As it stands, they've taken too many nerfs to their Component & Equipment Health levels, and your current idea for changes does NOTHING to fix that. Like, why didn't you Buff the Health of Clan DHS and other things during those PTS 1.0 & 1.1 runs, anyway? When people take Inner Sphere Contracts for Faction Warfare, they want the Clan Mechs that they face to actually still be a challenge against them even when they're blowing it and mess up. The same even goes when they pick an Inner Sphere Mech and fight a Clan Mech in Quick Play! Posted Image

Next, PTS 2.0 was only partially liked by the Community because it made builds involving PPCs & MRMs (as well as various forms of Large Lasers) not really that usable. It was starting to go in the right direction, but it missed a few things regarding Ghost Heat that should have been checked in tandem. Perhaps even Heat Gen Buffs could have been pushed to PPCs and MRMs for that matter. I suspect if they had been, then it might have been a near-ace for stopping the problematic Gauss & Laser Alpha combo, all while leaving most any playstyle functional. Posted Image

PTS 2.1 however was where you basically hit the mark properly. A flat Heat Limit, Good Heat Dissipation, and every weapon seemed to work properly. It could even shut down launching those troublesome Gauss & Laser Alpha combos without penalizing most every other playstyle out there. Firing something too big should indeed shut the Mech down, just like it used to back in games like MechWarrior 2&3 did. Posted Image

So then I sat back, thinking... I asked myself, "How can I help Chris Lowrey balance MWO, but keep things like the '18 Damage C-HLL' and other things unaffected in terms of their Baseline Heat & Damage? Further, how can I help him make using DHS not still too mandatory? Even further, how can I help Balance this so that it never leaves things easy for the 'Elite-Type, Competitive-Class Players' up top against anyone of lesser skills?", and the following things then just dawned on me. What do you think of the following numbers...
  • Base Heat Bar increased to 45 (from 30)(I think this part works too, as you're bumping Capacity down below.)
  • ALL HeatSinks (Single & Double)

    Removed settings related to differences between Engine and External Heatsinks.(Again, I think this part works, as you're bumping Capacity & Dissipation down below.)
  • Heatsinks (This part changed slightly... It just didn't seem right to me.)

    Dissipation Increased to 0.15 (from 0.13)
    Heat Capacity reduced to 0.825 (from 1.3)
  • Inner Sphere Double Heatsinks (This part not changed from how you intend... I think it works.)

    Dissipation Increased to 0.22 (from 0.15)
    Heat Capacity reduced to 0.5 (from 1.5)
  • Clan Double Heatsinks (This part changed slightly... It just didn't seem right to me.)

    Dissipation Increased to 0.20 (from 0.15)
    Heat Capacity reduced to 0.5 (from 1.5)
  • Quirks (This part also not changed from how you intend... I think it works.)

    Corrective Heat Dissipation quirks on sub 250 engine 'Mechs will be generally phased out.
    Some quirks may remain depending on if we wish to keep a small amount of dissipation as a specific flavor or Omnipod perk.
...for Heat Management? To me, laying it out with those appears to make things "Balanced But Different" in the Grand Scheme of MWO's Game Design. Now onward beyond this, I then looked at Damage/'Heat Generation', as well as the Ghost Heat Penalties for the various Weapons. How does this set of numbers...
  • I.S. ER Large Laser

    Heat remains at 8
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL I.S. Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL I.S. Medium Lasers
    I.S. ER Large Lasers may now fire 4 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 5 or more.
  • I.S. Large Pulse Laser

    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL I.S. Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL I.S. Medium Lasers
    I.S. Large Pulse Lasers may now fire 4 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 5 or more.
  • I.S. Standard Large Laser

    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL I.S. Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL I.S. Medium Lasers
    I.S. Standard Large Lasers may now fire 4 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 5 or more.
  • Clan ER Large Laser

    Damage remains at 11
    Heat decreased to 10.5 (from 10.8)
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL Clan Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL Clan Medium & Small Lasers
    Clan ER Large Lasers may now fire 3 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 4 or more.
  • Clan ER Medium Laser

    Damage remains at 7
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL Clan Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL Clan Medium & Small Lasers
  • Clan Medium Pulse Laser

    Damage remains at 7 (possible outlook of Buff to 7.5 or 8, depending on performance in these circumstances)
    Heat remains at 4.75 (possible outlook of Nerf to 4.9 or 5.1, depending on IF Damage gets Buff)
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL Clan Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL Clan Medium & Small Lasers
  • Clan Heavy Large Laser

    Damage remains at 18 (possible outlook of Buff to 19 or 20, depending on performance in these circumstances)
    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL Clan Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL Clan Medium & Small Lasers
    Clan Heavy Large Lasers may still only fire 2 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 3 or more.
  • Clan Large Pulse Laser

    Ghost Heat Penalty of ALL Clan Large Lasers becomes linked with ALL Clan Medium & Small Lasers
    Clan Large Pulse Lasers may now fire 3 before Ghost Heat, Penalty will occur when firing 4 or more.
...look to you in terms of Damage, Heat Generation, and Ghost Heat Penalty? Here, I tried to factor in PTS 1.0 & 1.1, directly because of the idea introduced to my mind about Ghost Heat Penalty adjustments. In the idea that these changes which I propose present in terms of situations, I've also factored in the troublesome Gauss & Laser Alpha combos that everyone's been talking about, and have been overdue to be stopped, but fully without leaving Pure Laser builds in some kind of unusable state. This will still allow mixing of Gauss & Lasers, but only to a more limited extent that blocks the largest bursts unless the Pilot wants to sit for a few eating a Penalty. Yes, people will have to learn better firing discipline in not mixing Large Lasers with Mediums (and in the case of Clans, Small Lasers), but at least this puts a stopper on most of the "single-Alpha, insta-delete backshots" and such that nobody likes. Further in turn, I've also taken a page out of the I.S. Ghost Heat Booklet about tuning the Clan Side to still maintain "Balanced But Different", yet without taking away the Clan Weapon Sting that should be felt when someone using an Inner Sphere Mech makes a big error. I further think & feel that these numbers all avoid the push into a situation where I.S. Mechs would have to lose their Durability Quirks and such, items which happen to give the I.S. their own flavor that I feel should still be there. This even leaves room for Medium Mechs on both sides to come into their own alongside ALL of the Other Weight Classes, as well as not leave the slower Light Mechs in an underpowered state, which makes an excellent plus for not Nerfing the Baseline Damage on all those individual Weapons via the batch set you originally Roadmap as. Posted Image



Now, with all of this said, I also have to ask you why the "X-Pulse Lasers" were not introduced into the Inner Sphere Weapons Arsenal? They might have been able to pre-settle a lot of this mess before it even began. Further, in terms of Last Questions, why wasn't the Armor/Structure of ALL Mechs simply bumped up to around 2.5x to 3x what TableTop uses? It would have perfectly increased TTK to a reasonable extent without leaving matches to take all day long, allowed Mech Pilots to learn from their mistakes within a single match, and potentially promoted more Lance-based Operations versus the severe 'DeathBall'ing that we see now. Quite honestly, I would like to hear your thoughts on everything I've posted above in terms of a possible edit to your Roadmap, as well as these varied additional matters. I want to see MWO become totally fun again too, so please reply back and give me (and obviously everyone else here too) some return insight? Posted Image

~Mr. D. V. "Finally getting a chance to ring in after 4 PTS Runs & 12.5 Pages of Discussion here..." Devnull





(p.s.: In case you're wondering, this post took me multiple hours to actually type. On top of that, it took quite some time to read through the whole thread, and about 10 to 14 days to reach enough mental thought to start typing. About 20 passes up and down the post later, here it is for your reading. So I'm really looking forward to understanding your thoughts, both from the Roadmap itself as well as how my proposal works in terms of any useful tweaks it might provide for your use!)





[One heck of an Additional Edit by Post Author for some formatting that totally nuked itself... UGH!]
[Also an Edit about 18 Hours Later by Post Author for a clarification they missed in the whole idea stack...and the ensuing formatting hell that got fixed again... Sorry about that!!!]



well written,well said

#254 Jungle Plague

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 01:45 PM

Full disclosure before anyone gets started reading anything:

First disclosure - I know next to nothing.

Second disclosure - I assume that any of these ideas I will list below are not implementable in the current build of the game - at least not without a lot of work - these are ideas that would have to wait until a big re-build of the game... *crosses fingers for MWO 2.0 in UE4*

Third disclosure: Specific numbers are for reference sake/easy math's sake.

WHAT IF - the way that weapons were balanced was not done by changing the damage of weapons, or their heat levels (I am looking at you ghost heat... its time for you to leave in Jungle-Land), rather by changing their accuracy? Examples below, starting with laser weapons.

In their current state, lasers fire exactly where the cursor is pointing, and they stay on point with the cursor for the length of the burn. What if we made lasers first impact on point of aim, and then drift over the course of their burn (like recoil of automatic weapons in other video games) and the rate of that drift was proportional to the current heat of the mech?

Example - say at 1000m (and 0% heat) all laser weapons have a possible drift radius of 5m, and a drift rate of .5m/s (and for ease of discussion we will operate on X and Y axis). So if the laser were fired it would start at (0,0) and over the course of a 10-second burn it would drift out to (-5,0), (0,5) (5,0) or (0,-5) - where it would cease its drift.

At 100% heat, at 1000m, said laser would initially impact (0,0) and then drift at a rate of 5m/s to one of four points (-5,0), (0,5) (5,0) or (0,-5).

Each initial point of impact would always be on (0,0) but each laser fired would have a randomized direction of drift along one of the four X/Y axes.

As a group of lasers is fired, the heat spikes rapidly and thus increases the random rate of drift for each laser - so it becomes almost impossible to focus a high-alpha laser strike on one component of an enemy mech - effectively turning laser-boats into splash damage weapons at long range - IF they are firing large alpha strikes. Smaller numbers of lasers will result in less heat, thus less rapid drift - and keeping us able to focus the damage on certain components - it will just focus less damage.

These effects on accuracy will obviously be lessened the shorter ranged the engagement gets.

Ballistic weapons still function in a similar manner - where their accuracy degrades as heat increases - but instead of starting at (0,0) and drifting, as heat increases it increases the possible impact radius/cone of the projectile. At 0% heat - the possible impact cone at 1000m is 0m diameter - at 100% heat the possible impact cone at 1000m is 10m diameter.

Where I see this idea giving fits is with gauss rifles and PPCs. Since gauss rifles generate almost no heat, they would have no accuracy impacts (provided the player is firing ONLY gauss rifles to keep at 0% heat) - and in my opinion, that is a decent thing - it would be good to have a dedicated long range pinpoint weapon - but we have to find a way to degrade its usefulness as ranges close - and I think the way to do that is by playing with the cooldown/reload times.

With PPC's they need to fall under the same rules as ballistics - impact area cone proportional to current heat levels at times of firing.

I think this archetype of idea would create a balance of play styles - where some players/builds are incentivized to keep enemies at range, where some are encouraged to close range to minimize the "impact cones" of their weapons, and where some players are encouraged to find the balanced middle ground - between possible accuracy and raw DPS.

Obviously this idea needs a lot more fleshing out to remotely achieve balance - like, "How does firing multiple projectile weapons at 0% heat affect accuracy - especially something like PPCs?" to avoid having the game turn purely into a long-range toaster pastry-fest (poptarts should not be THE name of the game) but I think this is an interesting train of thought - any ideas?

#255 Sable Dove

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 09:21 PM

Half the players would be okay with it, and the other half would go insane because WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN'T SHOOT ALL OF MY WEAPONS AT ONCE AND HIT A TARGET THE SIZE OF A DIME WITH ALL OF THEM?!?!?!

Really. Some people think that a build is ruined if you can't alpha strike instantaneously and hit a single component.

#256 Void Angel

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 05:07 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 19 September 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

Good? "Hey my hard counter against one of the worst weight classes in the game isn't a hard counter anymore" Let me play the world's smallest violin for you?

I realize I'm late to the party, but as a Light pilot that made me laugh for a good twenty seconds solid - thanks!

#257 Natural Predator

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 08:29 AM

Clan laser vomit was fine pre patch. If anything it is better now. Just take it back to pre patch. It certainly doesn’t need to be worse than pre patch.

#258 Y E O N N E

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 09:51 AM

View PostSable Dove, on 29 October 2018 - 09:21 PM, said:

Half the players would be okay with it, and the other half would go insane because WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN'T SHOOT ALL OF MY WEAPONS AT ONCE AND HIT A TARGET THE SIZE OF A DIME WITH ALL OF THEM?!?!?!

Really. Some people think that a build is ruined if you can't alpha strike instantaneously and hit a single component.


Laser vomit is pointless if it can't do more damage to a single part than a double-tap of massed UACs or a single shot of PPFLD in a similar amount of exposure time for either. Unless you can't fit those alternatives on the 'Mech (i.e. Lights), stagger-fired laser vomit lacks the pushing power and range of the ballistics, the safety and precision of the PPFLD, and the focused damage of either.

You will have riots if you start suggesting a pair of HPPC cannot be fired together, a pair of Gauss cannot be fired together, or even a pair of UAC/10 cannot be fired together without steep accuracy penalties.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 01 November 2018 - 09:53 AM.


#259 AlphaPiAlpha

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 09:49 PM

Okay, MechCon is over, give us the roadmap you promised for after MechCon cause you did not present anything at MechCon itself.
TY in advance.





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