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Increase Ppc Ghost Heat Limit


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#41 Khobai

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 04:39 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 03:56 AM, said:

MWO's CERPPC is actually designed to be used in closer range than IS ERPPC


no it isnt. i dont know where you got that nonsense from.

its just designed to force you to take a targeting computer to get the same velocity as the IS ERPPC.

if the CERPPC was designed to be used at closer range it wouldnt have the same max range as the ERPPC. They wouldve given the CERPPC a lower max range if it was intended to be used at shorter ranges.

also its okay for the CERPPC to be more versatile than the ERPPC since clans only have one type of PPC and not five types of specialized PPCs.

And for sake of argument, lets review the advantages of each:

ERPPC
-less heat for same PPFLD
-shorter cooldown
-way faster velocity
-way stronger and more prolific quirks (compared to the almost non-existent ppc quirks on the clan side)
-more crit health
-less tonnage if clans have to take a targeting computer to get similar performance out of the CERPPC

CERPPC
-less tonnage if you sacrifice performance compared to the ERPPC by not taking a TC (i.e. way less velocity)
-highly unreliable splash damage that disappears half the time and doesnt even directly contribute to killing mechs most of the time.


yeah im sorry im just not seeing why the CERPPC shouldnt get x3 ghost heat. It literally has only one advantage over the ERPPC (splash damage) and its not a very good advantage compared to what the ERPPC gets, especially if the ERPPC gets x3 ghost heat in addition to all those other advantages.

the CERPPC stacks up pretty poorly against the ERPPC in a side by side comparison. the only reason it performs better in-game is because clans have an unfair advantage when it comes to CDHS being way superior to ISDHS. And ISDHS absolutely should be buffed.

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 09 September 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

If it disappears half of the time, then it's effectively 2.5 splash-damage, so that's still 12.5 damage. You are still looking at 37.5 damage, for 6 tons, when Clans already have the capacity to mass so much DHS.


no its 30 meaningful damage and 7.5+ trash damage that almost never matters. and worse performance than the ERPPC in literally every other category. And it actually weighs more tonnage if you have to take a targeting computer.

and CDHS being better than ISDHS is not the fault of the CERPPC. the CERPPC shouldnt be punished because of that. its the fault of ISDHS not being as good as CDHS. I have said many times that ISDHS need to be buffed. ISDHS cost 3 crit slots instead of 2 crit slots so they should dissipate heat faster than CDHS.

Instead of punishing clan weapons constantly because CDHS are better, why not buff ISDHS to be on par? That makes so much more sense than continually nerfing clan weapons and not fixing the underlying problem of massive disparity between clan vs IS heatsink performance.

So yeah... x3 ghost heat for all non-heavy PPCs including CERPPC. And buff ISDHS so theyre not terribad anymore.

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2018 - 05:42 AM.


#42 El Bandito

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 05:50 AM

View PostKhobai, on 10 September 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

no it isnt. i dont know where you got that nonsense from.

its just designed to force you to take a targeting computer to get the same velocity as the IS ERPPC.


Lower velocity + no minimum range = should be used at shorter range than IS ERPPC.


View PostKhobai, on 10 September 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

ERPPC
-less heat for same PPFLD
-shorter cooldown
-way faster velocity
-way stronger and more prolific quirks (compared to the almost non-existent ppc quirks on the clan side)
-more crit health
-less tonnage if clans have to take a targeting computer to get similar performance out of the CERPPC

CERPPC
-less tonnage if you sacrifice performance compared to the ERPPC by not taking a TC (i.e. way less velocity)
-highly unreliable splash damage that disappears half the time and doesnt even directly contribute to killing mechs most of the time.


Doesn't matter cause of tech disparity. And PGI is not gonna be doing tech balancing any time soon. Also, you forgot to add no minimum range on CERPPC.


View PostKhobai, on 10 September 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:

no it isnt. i dont know where you got that
Instead of punishing clan weapons constantly because CDHS are better, why not buff ISDHS to be on par? That makes so much more sense than continually nerfing clan weapons and not fixing the underlying problem of massive disparity between clan vs IS heatsink performance.

So yeah... x3 ghost heat for all non-heavy PPCs including CERPPC. And buff ISDHS so theyre not terribad anymore.


I also want tech balancing, but 3 years of me harping on PGI didn't change their minds, so lets be realistic here.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 September 2018 - 05:54 AM.


#43 InspectorG

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 06:06 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 03:56 AM, said:


... is after comprehensive tech balance.


Lol. Never gonna happen, my fellow pilot. Never gonna happen.

#44 Vlad Striker

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 06:11 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 08 September 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:


Cause Clanners can pack more DHS than IS could ever do thanks to base tech superiority, thus nullifying whatever heat advantage IS has. Tech balance first, then weapon balance, and finally mech balance. That's how a 12v12 game balance should work--but PGI is oblivious to it.

This is some sort of misunderstanding and common legend. Very few clan mech can be equpped more than 20 DHS. That because many of them used critacal slots for XL engine, FF armor, endo-steel and jump jets. It is remains not too much free critical slots for DHS on average clan mech or not enough free weight. For example, dedicated ERPPC Linebacker can carry up to 20 DHS by cost of lower 0.5t of armor.

#45 Abaddun

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 06:28 AM

View PostKhobai, on 10 September 2018 - 04:39 AM, said:


no it isnt. i dont know where you got that nonsense from.

its just designed to force you to take a targeting computer to get the same velocity as the IS ERPPC.

if the CERPPC was designed to be used at closer range it wouldnt have the same max range as the ERPPC. They wouldve given the CERPPC a lower max range if it was intended to be used at shorter ranges.

also its okay for the CERPPC to be more versatile than the ERPPC since clans only have one type of PPC and not five types of specialized PPCs.

And for sake of argument, lets review the advantages of each:

ERPPC
-better heat efficiency
-shorter cooldown
-way faster velocity
-way stronger and more prolific quirks (compared to the almost non-existent ppc quirks on the clan side)
-more crit health
-less tonnage if clans have to take a targeting computer to get similar performance out of the CERPPC

CERPPC
-less tonnage if you sacrifice performance compared to the ERPPC by not taking a TC (i.e. way less velocity)
-highly unreliable splash damage that disappears half the time and doesnt even directly contribute to killing mechs most of the time.


yeah im sorry im just not seeing why the CERPPC shouldnt get x3 ghost heat. It literally has only one advantage over the ERPPC (splash damage) and its not a very good advantage compared to what the ERPPC gets, especially if the ERPPC gets x3 ghost heat on top of all those other advantages.

the CERPPC stacks up pretty poorly against the ERPPC in a side by side comparison. the only reason it performs better in-game is because clans have an unfair advantage when it comes to CDHS being way superior to ISDHS. And ISDHS absolutely should be buffed.



no its 30 meaningful damage and 7.5+ trash damage that almost never matters. and worse performance than the ERPPC in literally every other category. And it actually weighs more tonnage if I have to take a targeting computer.

and CDHS being better than ISDHS is not the fault of the CERPPC. the CERPPC shouldnt be punished because of that. its the fault of ISDHS not being as good as CDHS. I have said many times that ISDHS need to be buffed. ISDHS cost 3 crit slots instead of 2 crit slots so they should dissipate heat faster than CDHS.

Instead of punishing clan weapons constantly because CDHS are better, why not buff ISDHS to be on the same level? That makes so much more sense than continually nerfing clan weapons and not fixing the underlying problem of the massive disparity between clan vs IS heatsink performance.

So yeah... x3 ghost heat for CERPPC. And buff ISDHS so theyre not terribad anymore.


Actually the heat efficiency for the Clan ERPPC is the same(if not better than the ISERPPC. ISERPPC has 13.5 heat for 10 damage and the CERPPC has 14.5 heat for 15 damage, and before you say it, the splash damage doesn't just "disappear" it deals 5 damage split between up to 2 adjacent components. That's the equivalent of a free SRM 2 shot over the standard PPC damage.

So it's 1 less ton and crit slot for reduced velocity and a longer cooldown. No you don't have to take a targeting computer, that's a choice, if you can't lead shots take lasers. Oh would you look at that, meaningful tradeoffs. PPC quirks are entirely mech dependent. Go on, try and convince me the Black Knight-7 is a better PPC boat then a Warhawk.

#46 Kubernetes

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 06:50 AM

IS ERPPC does not have a min range.

#47 Davegt27

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 06:52 AM

guys this thread is from 2016 stop digging up old threads

#48 Abaddun

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 06:55 AM

View PostVlad Striker, on 10 September 2018 - 06:11 AM, said:

This is some sort of misunderstanding and common legend. Very few clan mech can be equpped more than 20 DHS. That because many of them used critacal slots for XL engine, FF armor, endo-steel and jump jets. It is remains not too much free critical slots for DHS on average clan mech or not enough free weight. For example, dedicated ERPPC Linebacker can carry up to 20 DHS by cost of lower 0.5t of armor.


Compared with a dedicated ERPPC Thunderbolt 9S which carries 18 DHS with fewer DHS in the engine, and moves 30 KPH Slower. Really? You're going to try and tell me clan mechs have less space for DHS? Even ignoring Clan Battlemechs, crit space only really becomes a major issue on omni mechs 75 tons and up where you definitely have to fight for space.

#49 Mystere

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 07:13 AM

View PostThe6thMessenger, on 09 September 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

Fairly common. Lets say half of the time. That is still effectively 2.5 effective-damage each, total of 12.5, that is still effectively 37.5 damage.


So that's 2.5 damage that never goes where I intend it to. I call that a waste -- except for those extremely rare occasions where 2.5 or less is what's needed to kill the target.

I thought people here hated RNGJeesus like The Devil Incarnate Himself?


View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 03:56 AM, said:

And yes, there is the splash, which is still better than no splash.


See above.

Edited by Mystere, 10 September 2018 - 07:16 AM.


#50 Khobai

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 07:17 AM

View PostAbaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

Actually the heat efficiency for the Clan ERPPC is the same(if not better than the ISERPPC. ISERPPC has 13.5 heat for 10 damage and the CERPPC has 14.5 heat for 15 damage, and before you say it, the splash damage doesn't just "disappear" it deals 5 damage split between up to 2 adjacent components. That's the equivalent of a free SRM 2 shot over the standard PPC damage.


nope. ERPPC does the same PPFLD as CERPPC for less heat. so its more heat efficient at doing PPFLD.

also the splash damage DOES disappear. if you hit an arm or a leg or a head for example you dont do 5 splash damage. you only do 2.5 splash damage. splash damage is highly unreliable in that sense.

paying extra heat for trashy splash damage is undesirable most of the time. especially when you have to deal with worse velocity, a slower rate of fire, and worse everything else too.

View PostAbaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 06:28 AM, said:

So it's 1 less ton and crit slot for reduced velocity and a longer cooldown. No you don't have to take a targeting computer, that's a choice, if you can't lead shots take lasers. Oh would you look at that, meaningful tradeoffs. PPC quirks are entirely mech dependent. Go on, try and convince me the Black Knight-7 is a better PPC boat then a Warhawk.


you do have to take a targeting computer if you want the same velocity

without a targeting computer the CERPPC is straight up worse at long range compared to the ERPPC

if you want the CERPPC to have the same performance as the ERPPC, you have to take a targeting computer, and it actually ends up weighing more than the ERPPC.

View PostAbaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

PPC quirks are entirely mech dependent. Go on, try and convince me the Black Knight-7 is a better PPC boat then a Warhawk.


1) but the fact remains that IS gets about 3 times more mechs with PPC quirks. and most of those mechs get better PPC quirks than clan mechs.

2) the primary reason the warhawk is good at using CERPPCs is CDHS. It has nothing to do with its quirks or CERPPC being better than ERPPC (because its not). It has to do with CDHS being vastly superior to ISDHS.

View PostMystere, on 10 September 2018 - 07:13 AM, said:


So that's 2.5 damage that never goes where I intend it to. I call that a waste -- except for those extremely rare occasions where 2.5 or less is what's needed to kill the target.


exactly its trash damage. people dont seem to understand how splash damage works. 90% of the time splash damage isnt helping you kill the mech any faster. Maybe 10% of the time it matters...

its the PPFLD that kills mechs. not the splash damage.

View PostAbaddun, on 10 September 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

Compared with a dedicated ERPPC Thunderbolt 9S which carries 18 DHS with fewer DHS in the engine, and moves 30 KPH Slower. Really? You're going to try and tell me clan mechs have less space for DHS? Even ignoring Clan Battlemechs, crit space only really becomes a major issue on omni mechs 75 tons and up where you definitely have to fight for space.


And once again the issue is ISDHS sucking.

The CERPPC should not be punished because ISDHS are bad.

instead ISDHS should not be bad and the CERPPC should not be punished.

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2018 - 07:33 AM.


#51 Mystere

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 07:20 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 10 September 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

guys this thread is from 2016 stop digging up old threads


WUT? Posted Image

#52 El Bandito

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 07:29 AM

View PostMystere, on 10 September 2018 - 07:13 AM, said:

So that's 2.5 damage that never goes where I intend it to. I call that a waste -- except for those extremely rare occasions where 2.5 or less is what's needed to kill the target.

I thought people here hated RNGJeesus like The Devil Incarnate Himself?

See above.


Are you so godly now that every single CERPPC shot you make connects with the exact component you wanted to hit? I didn't think so. Which means splash does in fact help.


View PostVlad Striker, on 10 September 2018 - 06:11 AM, said:

This is some sort of misunderstanding and common legend. Very few clan mech can be equpped more than 20 DHS. That because many of them used critacal slots for XL engine, FF armor, endo-steel and jump jets. It is remains not too much free critical slots for DHS on average clan mech or not enough free weight. For example, dedicated ERPPC Linebacker can carry up to 20 DHS by cost of lower 0.5t of armor.


Linebacker actually runs out of tonnage rather than space due to huge engine--your example is gravely flawed. Compared to that, an equal tonnage Hellbringer with 2xCERPPC can equip up to 25 DHS. Something completely impossible for IS mechs. Clan battlemechs, which are not engine bound can equip even more!

Edited by El Bandito, 10 September 2018 - 07:34 AM.


#53 Khobai

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 07:35 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 10 September 2018 - 06:52 AM, said:

guys this thread is from 2016 stop digging up old threads


its from 2018

but yes similar threads also existed in 2016

because in 2 years PGI still has not fixed the major balance problem of CDHS being way better than ISDHS

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

Are you so godly now that every single CERPPC shot you make connects with the exact component you wanted to hit? I didn't think so. Which means splash does in fact help.


No one is saying splash damage doesnt help. It certainly helps a small amount.

But it certainly doesnt help enough that the CERPPC shouldnt get x3 ghost heat limit

Even if both the CERPPC and ERPPC are both x3 ghost heat limit, the ERPPC retains several key advantages over the CERPPC. I listed them all above.

And once again the real problem is ISDHS sucking compared to CDHS. Thats the only reason clan mechs are better at using PPCs; because they can carry more CDHS and dissipate the heat way faster. ISDHS need to be buffed.

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

Linebacker actually runs out of tonnage rather than space due to huge engine--your example is gravely flawed. Compared to that, an equal tonnage Hellbringer with 2xCERPPC can equip up to 25 DHS. Something completely impossible for IS mechs. Clan battlemechs, which are not engine bound can equip even more!


And like ive been saying the problem is that ISDHS are bad.

18-19 ISDHS needs to be equal to 24-25 CDHS.

Because ISDHS are 3 crit slots and CDHS are only 2 crit slots. But also being 3 crit slots means they cant fit in locations like CT and legs which even further reduces how many ISDHS can be equipped.

Dont punish clan weapons because ISDHS are bad. Buff ISDHS instead.

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2018 - 07:46 AM.


#54 Mystere

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 07:36 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

Are you so godly now that every single CERPPC shot you make connects with the exact component you wanted to hit? I didn't think so. Which means splash does in fact help.



Isn't that the entire appeal of PPFLD?

And who said I do not use the CERPPC as a Clan snub-nose(*)? Posted Image


Edit: I just checked my CERPPC and IS snub-nose stats. Posted ImagePosted Image

Edited by Mystere, 10 September 2018 - 07:38 AM.


#55 El Bandito

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 07:39 AM

View PostMystere, on 10 September 2018 - 07:36 AM, said:

Isn't that the entire appeal of PPFLD?

And who said I do not use the CERPPC as a Clan snub-nose? Posted Image


1. Dollars to donuts your hit ratio with CERPPC is no where even close to 100%, much less hitting the component you want.

2. One reason why CERPPC doesn't need GH increase, cause of the lack of minimum range handicap.

#56 Mystere

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 07:49 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

1. Dollars to donuts your hit ratio with CERPPC is no where even close to 100%, much less hitting the component you want.


So what? What does that have to do with the appeal of PPFLD? <smh>


View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

[/color]
2. One reason why CERPPC doesn't need GH increase, cause of the lack of minimum range handicap.


Given the Clans have only one PPC-type weapon, that rationale is on the weak side, especially given that CQC using CERPPCs is a dangerous proposition.


Edit: Hot damn! The CERPPC is my second most used PPFLD weapon, and trailing the CUAC/5 by less than 200 shots. I need to change that ... next season. Posted Image

Edited by Mystere, 10 September 2018 - 07:55 AM.


#57 El Bandito

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 08:05 AM

View PostMystere, on 10 September 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

So what? What does that have to do with the appeal of PPFLD? <smh>


That has everything to do with the usefulness of CERPPC's splash damage.

#58 Khobai

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 08:06 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

2. One reason why CERPPC doesn't need GH increase, cause of the lack of minimum range handicap.


huh? the ERPPC doesnt have a min range handicap either. that makes no sense.

And I think we can all agree min range is dumb and unfun and no PPC should have min range anyway.

and yeah clans only get one type of PPC so of course it should be more versatile than any of the five more specialized IS PPCs.

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

That has everything to do with the usefulness of CERPPC's splash damage.


Which in actuality is not very useful.

30 PPFLD from x3 ERPPC will kill mechs way more often than 20 PPFLD + splash damage from x2 CERPPC ever will. Thats a fact.

Because remember theres damage transference. Which allows high PPFLD to do splash damage of a sort anyway. So if you miss the CT, and destroy their side torso, half of the excess damage will transfer to the CT. Because damage transference exists anyway its another reason splash damage isnt all that great.

Sorry but im still not convinced that splash damage is the boogeyman you make it out to be. Its nowhere near good enough to prevent CERPPC from being x3 ghost heat limit.

But im glad weve identified weak ISDHS and min range on PPCs as the real problems.

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2018 - 08:17 AM.


#59 B L O O D W I T C H

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 08:09 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

Are you so godly now that every single CERPPC shot you make connects with the exact component you wanted to hit? I didn't think so. Which means splash does in fact help.


I don't like this argumentation. Following the reasoning, i could say that:

SRM without artemis are better then those with artemis, because you don't always hit the component you want and splash helps.

Or

Firing LBX at distance is better then AC, because you don't always hit the component you want and splash helps.

I get that splash sometimes helps to at least hit something but what matters in praxis is what damage you do when you actually hit what you want.

Splash PPC damage is like a laser which autorolls 33% of its damage on 2 more components regardless if you are aim is perfectly on target or not. Noone would want such a laser yet for c-er-ppcs it's completely fine?

If you know you won't get all the damage where you want it to be you might as well take a laser instead (which is what the vast majority of players does anyways).

Don't get me wrong, i don't want 15 point damage on them, that would be just as bad.
I can help but have the feeling that c-er-ppcs are forcefully kept into a very narrow niche.
You can't boat them, you need ungodly amount of heatsinks or pretty rare quirks, you can't dps, you can't burst, doesn't sync with anything but a single gauss. Can't snipe unless stationary or stupidly slow big targets.

Playing PPC on clan side feels like you're grimping yourself.
Yes it's fun, yes you can snapshot, but the benefits of ppc just don't outweight their terrible stats.

I don't even think that more then 1% of the total playerbase has the consistent aim to make them work.

Edited by Toha Heavy Industries, 10 September 2018 - 09:33 AM.


#60 Mystere

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 08:14 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 10 September 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

That has everything to do with the usefulness of CERPPC's splash damage.


So who here prefer weapons with splash damage over PPFLD? Anyone?

Anyone other than LRM lovers, of course. Posted Image

Edited by Mystere, 10 September 2018 - 08:15 AM.






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