53 replies to this topic

[Jonathan8883]

We all know that some mechs are simply too big for their weight class to be good. Without commentary or discussion, please post a list of your top 5 candidates. If this thread gets at least 100 posts and we have some clear consensus, maybe we'll get PGI's attention on this topic.

My votes:

Phoenix Hawk
Executioner
Firestarter
Gargoyle
Jenner/Jenner IIC

[Battlemaster56]

Every 35 tonner

And that's it.

[Shredmetal]

Battlemaster56, on 11 September 2018 - 05:22 AM, said:

Every 35 tonner

And that's it.

The tankier ones with good hitboxes and armour quirks are in an alright spot (though I really wouldn't oppose a rescale of the WLF (entirely self-serving)).

The Jenner however is one of the more egregious examples - that snout that it looks like it uses to hunt for truffles is enormous and extremely easy to hit even when its frantically dodging (I don't have a Jenner, I just like shooting at them).

[Bud Crue]

I don’t think you can or should really do this without commentary. There are too many related issues which impact a given chassis perceived need for rescale relative to their fellows in a weight class.

Anyway, its your thread, so:

ALL 35 toners except for the Raven
Shadow Hawk
Black Knight
Awesome
Catapult (sorry, I can’t help it...if we are being honest it probably needs to get bigger, but I’d prefer if everything else was rescaled to it)

Edited by Bud Crue, 11 September 2018 - 05:28 AM.

[El Bandito]

Atlas, and Banshee needs size reduction.

[C E Dwyer]

35 toners
Banshee, Atlas, Executioner,

A complete redesign of how crit slots weight - area - protection is really needed.

It's design since table top is that of someone that has no idea of how area, to weight works, which as soon as fancy armour, and split crit weapons arrived just made an o.k system, into a terrible system.

But I shudder to think how butchered it would be in this game though if attempted.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Warhawk/direwolf <
Firestarter
Jenner (& 2C)
King crab
Shadowhawk

[Battlemaster56]

Shredmetal, on 11 September 2018 - 05:27 AM, said:

The tankier ones with good hitboxes and armour quirks are in an alright spot (though I really wouldn't oppose a rescale of the WLF (entirely self-serving)).

The Jenner however is one of the more egregious examples - that snout that it looks like it uses to hunt for truffles is enormous and extremely easy to hit even when its frantically dodging (I don't have a Jenner, I just like shooting at them).

I wouldn't mind seeing the Jenner and Jenner IIC get atleast a 25-35+ armor and 15+ structure while having a 15+ armor for the arms, as someone who owns the IIC (Origins) the thing really needs even when of a match turns into a chaotic cesspool they'll be easily focus first despite worse threats on the field (all personal experience), and it's difficult to do any good flanking or strafe runs with it's abysmal agility.

But I will still prefer a size reduction of the 35 tonner weight class (and proper quirk adjustments) with a size reduction of the Jenner's CT as a QoL fix.

[aardappelianen]

Uziel, because its just a big walking target, i would love to see some of its volume redistributed to the legs as well so it's overall size reduction can be justified under this volumetric scaling "logic" and because most ppl don't bother trying to shoot the legs it seems because they are hard to hit so the armor there is wasted while my torsos are desperate for some more armor.
And i dont now about every 35 tonner but cougars and adders for sure, or a st armor buff for the cougar and ct armor buff for the adder at least.

[Captain Caveman DE]

aardappelianen, on 11 September 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

Uziel, because its just a big walking target, i would love to see some of its volume redistributed to the legs as well so it's overall size reduction can be justified under this volumetric scaling "logic" and because most ppl don't bother trying to shoot the legs it seems because they are hard to hit so the armor there is wasted while my torsos are desperate for some more armor.
And i dont now about every 35 tonner but cougars and adders for sure, or a st armor buff for the cougar and ct armor buff for the adder at least.

I like that line of thought. really not a big fan of the uziel (piloting it), but it looks cool. a simple downsizing (without work on the design itself) might make it okayish, so we at least would see some Uzis on the battlefield.
might work better than (more) quirks, cause those STs are still too big on the walking egg to ignore.


aside from that:
Jenner and JennerIIC first, pls.
and yeah, Executioner is already "in line" after those.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 11 September 2018 - 08:06 AM.

[LordBraxton]

Victor, Zeus, Gargoyle, Exe, All 35 tonners. Yes.

[Spheroid]

Pointless topic. Resizing is a waste of valuable man hours.

For whose benefit would resizing be done? Those valuing combat equality(which can accomplished via quirks) or those with crippling OCD?

[JediPanther]

Jenner-D
Jenner-F
Jenner-D(S)
Jenner-X(C)
Jenner-O

[ocular tb]

Jenner
Panther
Firestarter
Wolfhound

[aardappelianen]

Spheroid, on 11 September 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

Pointless topic. Resizing is a waste of valuable man hours.

For whose benefit would resizing be done? Those valuing combat equality(which can accomplished via quirks) or those with crippling OCD?

having a depressing atitude doesn't mean we dont get to dream nor does it mean you can just make assumptions on our mental health.

mech size is great factor in determening its viability and therefore open for discussion

if combat equality can be achieved simply through quirks how come it hasnt been done ?

[Spheroid]

aardappelianen, on 11 September 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

if combat equality can be achieved simply through quirks how come it hasnt been done ?

It already was. Long ago(before you joined this game) the Black Knight was extremely meta. It had huge armor quirks, heat gen quirks and could rapidly twist owing to agility being tied to large engines. No ghost heat on large mixed energy alphas either. Its effectiveness had nothing to do how large the torso was because a vast majority of the fire was being taken on the shield arms.

Likewise the Thunderbolt-5SS was a god mech with ultra cold pulse alphas going out to 300m. Its was very nimble with that 300STD as well. Again the meta had nothing to do with its size.


Those god quirks have all been walked back. They did indeed exist.

[Viking Yelling]

Here's the problem. Resizing or reshaping mechs either hurts player aim, or "makes hit boxes op."
I'd love to see mwo try partial damage hitboxes. They could simply work like already destroyed components, and transfer a portion of the damage to the actual component.

Take the nightstar for example. Having those pod things near the top-rear of the mech have this type of hitbox would allow the mech to have its shape but not loose a CT cause that odd pod on top of the mech getting sniped by a gauss round.

However, I doubt PGI wants to bother.

[Bud Crue]

aardappelianen, on 11 September 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

mech size is great factor in determening its viability and therefore open for discussion

if combat equality can be achieved simply through quirks how come it hasnt been done ?

Size is but one factor in determining viability.

On a whim PGI can make any mech they want over perform, under perform, act as a base line, be a niche player or do whatever they want and/or essentially force players into playing a mech how they want, at any time using quirks. From the once upon a time “giga quirks” that the Black Jack and Oxide once enjoyed to the negative quirks of the Timberwolf and everything in between. PGI has always had the power to use quirks to change the game, the mechs, the variants, as they see fit.

All that changed with skills tree. For whatever reason, since even before rescale was originally proposed PGI decided that quirks are the great Satan of the game, and Chris especially has been on something of a crusade to see them eliminated or at least “dramatically reduced” for sometime now (except when he isn’t, and does things like give a Spider 5V an 80% countdown quirk or a giant quirk to a rule of 8 omnimech set, etc. or used to compensate crap mechs from their latest nerf to weapons; then quirks are about “flavor” and wholly acceptable because reasons).

Anyway this goes to my point above about discussion and rescale. Because quirks are still in the game and not consistently applied, some mechs are going to be deemed as being more in need of a rescale pass than others. Consider for example the Wolfhound and the Panther. One is considered one of the best lights in the game yet the other is not. Is one more deserving of a rescale pass than the other? The Panther’s mostly one arm emphasis (not including the hero), low hard points, mixed hard points makes it less desirable and less effectively playable at lower skill levels than the Wolfhound yet quirks are similar. Would a rescale address any of the Panther’s shortcomings? They are similar in profile, so both should be equally entitled to a rescale. But what difference would it make? Now consider the Firestarter.

Which is in greater need, more deserving of that rescale when all things are considered and all have a similarly oversized profile?
I say all of them. But quirks, hard points (hight and variety), agility, hit boxes, etc. are all going to be part of any valuation in decideing which mechs get help and which shouldn’t at least in this sort of a limited to 5 inquiry.

[aardappelianen]

@spheroid

sure improving agility and quirks would make mechs more viable, i would personaly see some mechs become harder to hit and more agile so that its not just about how many hits i can take but how many i can dodge

[Hestan]

C E Dwyer, on 11 September 2018 - 05:52 AM, said:

35 toners
Banshee, Atlas, Executioner,

Have to agree with this.

Lot's of others need a quirk pass to bring them up or knock them down. But we will likely get a weapons nerf that barely affects the intended recipient while punishing an entire class of other mechs.