39 replies to this topic

[MechaBattler]

When the game jumped to 12v12 it took a performance hit. Going to 16v16 will just tank the game's performance even more. I would much rather see the return to 8v8 or just leave it at 12v12.

[Tiewolf]

12vs.12 is already very edgy for the game so why 16vs.16? If the MM would work and if MWO had a population to support it, I would embrace 8vs.8. But in the current form it would be a catastrophic change for most players. They will quit after they realize, that there chance of winning is 0 when certain names on the enemy team pop up.

Edited by Tiewolf, 17 September 2018 - 10:33 AM.

[LordBraxton]

8v8 for life

there are so many trash pilots on here who are terrified they will never win if they dont have at least 11 people to carry their obese weight

[Khobai]

Kunato Developments, on 17 September 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

it's going to snowball regardless of player size.

probably.

but lights and mediums are comparatively stronger in 8v8 since they make up a bigger portion of their teams' tonnage and cant be focused down as quickly.

so 8v8 is better IMO

lights/mediums are too weak in 12v12, they dont have the armor to fight against that many mechs. also its much harder for lights/mediums to flank and sneak up behind enemies when theres 12 enemy mechs to avoid as opposed to only 8.

12v12 made it so heavies/assaults dominate too much. going back to 8v8 would help balance out the weight classes better.

Edited by Khobai, 17 September 2018 - 12:51 PM.

[GuardDogg]

Mechwarrior "Battletech" is always about 3 lances,..... Not 2.

[Novakaine]

Vellron2005, on 17 September 2018 - 04:55 AM, said:

Why not ditch lances and go for stars?

2 stars of 5 or 3 stars of five.. so 10 or 15 players?

We Spheriods never do Stars clanner.

[LordBraxton]

GuardDogg, on 17 September 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

Mechwarrior "Battletech" is always about 3 lances,..... Not 2.

clearly you dont know wtf you are talking about, because playing a game of battletech with 12 mechs per side is a huge book-keeping mess and the equivalent of a "mega-game" like when 40k nerds bring their whole collections out.

Battletech actually flows the best with about 4 mechs + some conventional support per side, and that's a pretty large game.

[Wil McCullough]

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 17 September 2018 - 06:16 AM, said:

I said affect. Maybe its my english. So percentages on different modes are the same. But a single dc in a scout match (1 out of 4 v4 players) affect the game more than 4 dc in 16v16. The above statement is debatable. So, lets say 1 of 10 players wil dc every game randomly, you will face like 1 of 2 scout matches ruined for one of the teams completely if dc in normalized range. And pretty much every match of 16v16 will be bearable. With rare exception of 4 men dc in one team. Like really rare exception. Its every eight match out of every 4 men dc matches.

So, dc in small matches matter more than dc in bigger matches.

Same goes to yolo and afk.

P.S.: i know, I messed with math here. But 4 dc out of 32 is less nasty than 1 out of 8

But you're not championing a change from 8 players (scouting) to 32 players (16v16).

You're trying to change 24 players (12v12) to 32 (16v16).

If 1 in 8 players dc/afk/yolo like you say, that's 3 players per 12v12 match and 4 players per 16v16. It's not a big difference at all.

If dcs/afks were a problem, a more direct solution would be advisable. Like hotdropping or weighted match score or something.

Increasing the number of players per game is a very convoluted and subtle solution to that problem.

Is there another reason why you're thinking of increasing the number of players per match? Something you're not telling us?

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

Wil McCullough, on 17 September 2018 - 06:37 PM, said:

But you're not championing a change from 8 players (scouting) to 32 players (16v16).

You're trying to change 24 players (12v12) to 32 (16v16).

If 1 in 8 players dc/afk/yolo like you say, that's 3 players per 12v12 match and 4 players per 16v16. It's not a big difference at all.

If dcs/afks were a problem, a more direct solution would be advisable. Like hotdropping or weighted match score or something.

Increasing the number of players per game is a very convoluted and subtle solution to that problem.

Is there another reason why you're thinking of increasing the number of players per match? Something you're not telling us?

I think that:

Bigger numbets = less affection of afk/dc/yolo players.

Bigger numbers = less snowballing

Bigger numbers = bigger diversity in tactical approach

Bigger number = better for lights and meds

Bigger numbers = more exciting games for general audience, new players.

On the other side

Smaller numbers are seem to better determine who is more skilled. But thats it.

[Appogee]

I believe the devs once said that 12 per side was about as much as the engine could handle.

I don't want to go back to 8.

[Peter2k]

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 17 September 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

I think that:

Bigger numbets = less affection of afk/dc/yolo players.

Bigger numbers = less snowballing

Bigger numbers = bigger diversity in tactical approach

Bigger number = better for lights and meds

Bigger numbers = more exciting games for general audience, new players.

this line of reasoning got us from 8vs8 to 12vs12 in the first place, and it did NOT offer more interesting tactics or less snowballing at all
if anything people clustered MORE together than they ever did before

Wil McCullough, on 17 September 2018 - 06:37 PM, said:

Is there another reason why you're thinking of increasing the number of players per match? Something you're not telling us?

I think its this

LordBraxton, on 17 September 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

there are so many trash pilots on here who are terrified they will never win if they dont have at least 11 people to carry their obese weight

Khobai, on 17 September 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

12v12 made it so heavies/assaults dominate too much.

agreed
seeing as tos are the most favorite classes, I can see why some fight tooth and nails over 8vs8

hell I would welcome a randomness to team size to make both sides happy, also random map while we're at it

Edited by Peter2k, 18 September 2018 - 12:48 AM.

[Anjian]

12 vs. 12 single spawns vs. 6 vs. 6 with limited respawns, the latter will have less snowballing by far.

[Tiewolf]

Anjian, on 18 September 2018 - 02:07 AM, said:

12 vs. 12 single spawns vs. 6 vs. 6 with limited respawns, the latter will have less snowballing by far.

6vs.6 with respawn will have the same snowballs, spawn camping and timestealing prolonged matches that are already decided. See FW if you think this is a good idea.

Edited by Tiewolf, 18 September 2018 - 02:32 AM.

[Mystere]

Peter2k, on 18 September 2018 - 12:45 AM, said:

hell I would welcome a randomness to team size to make both sides happy, also random map while we're at it

Dynamic team sizes. Random maps. Random game modes. I'm all for these.

[Wil McCullough]

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 17 September 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

I think that:

Bigger numbets = less affection of afk/dc/yolo players. (How much less though? Gut feel tells me not much.)

Bigger numbers = less snowballing (Arguable. More mechs mean more guns pointing in your direction when you derp)

Bigger numbers = bigger diversity in tactical approach (Unproven. Diversity was way better in 8v8 though. That is proven. Less mechs meant more possible avenues and tactics that the opposing team can't all cover)

Bigger number = better for lights and meds (8v8 is better for lights cos of reasons just above)

Bigger numbers = more exciting games for general audience, new players. (Actually a matter of taste. New players may like the mass of metal vs metal but makes identifying good plays more difficult in the chaos)

On the other side

Smaller numbers are seem to better determine who is more skilled. But thats it.

Responses in brackets above.

Most important consideration though is logistics. 8v8 matches are easier to matchmake and may result in closer "bands" of players.

Development time and money is a headache for expanding to 16v16. The game engine may need an overhaul. Also, vast majority of maps are too small to support 16v16. 12v12 is cramped enough as it is. Russ once said that a single map costs upwards of half a million to make. If map revamps are necessary, you're looking at up to 6 mil or more of money invested into something that may or may not work the way you think it does

[Anjian]

Tiewolf, on 18 September 2018 - 02:31 AM, said:

6vs.6 with respawn will have the same snowballs, spawn camping and timestealing prolonged matches that are already decided. See FW if you think this is a good idea.

Not necessarily. See many MOBAs and mobile online arena games in existence. There are just so many overly successful games out there that disproves this by factors in terms of their financial success and player base size. Take Mobile Legends for instance, which is 5 vs. 5 with respawns, one of the most highest grossing mobile games, or Arena of Valor aka Honor of Kings, also 5 vs. 5 with respawns and a mobile MOBA, which has over 200 million players in China.

Edited by Anjian, 18 September 2018 - 04:33 AM.

[El Bandito]

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 17 September 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

Bigger numbets = less affection of afk/dc/yolo players.

Bigger numbers = more chance of AFK/DC, so there won't be positive change.

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 17 September 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

Bigger numbers = less snowballing

Deaths and snowballing happens much faster since more guns will be shooting at one spot.

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 17 September 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

Bigger numbers = bigger diversity in tactical approach

MWO's tactical diversity did not improve after it switched from 8v8 to 12v12. If anything, 12v12 made older small maps obsolete cause 12 man easily covered each approach lane. More mechs = less part of the map that can be safely used without the other team noticing.

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 17 September 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

Bigger number = better for lights and meds

WRONG WRONG WRONG. More guns + easier for Lights and Mediums to die.

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 17 September 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

Bigger numbers = more exciting games for general audience, new players.

Bigger numbers = far worse frame rates and computer loads. When 8v8 was increased to 12v12, players' fps had dropped drastically, some by half. Playing shooter arena game with less than 50 fps is bad experience for many people. Which will DECREASE the amount of people who are gonna try the game.


About the only positive thing bigger numbers will bring, is to provide better sense of security to less than good players with herd mentality. Basically only unconfident mediocrities will benefit from increasing MWO's current group size, at the expense of huge FPS loss, worse match making, and worse hit-registration, for everyone.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 September 2018 - 07:08 AM.

[Sneaky Ohgoorchik]

I wish it would be possible to put it in test server. Too bad i wasn't around when they change qp to 12v12.

Edited by Sneaky Ohgoorchik, 18 September 2018 - 06:16 AM.

[Khobai]

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 17 September 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

I think that:

Bigger number = better for lights and meds

this is simply false

lights and meds do better with smaller numbers

because theyre a bigger percentage of their team and theres less enemies covering the map so their speed matters more and less enemies means less damage so theyre more likely to survive matches too.

Tiewolf, on 18 September 2018 - 02:31 AM, said:

6vs.6 with respawn will have the same snowballs, spawn camping and timestealing prolonged matches that are already decided. See FW if you think this is a good idea.

Yes all those problems will still exist. But lights and mediums wont be as bad. So thats an overall improvement. The best way to buff light/medium mechs is to go back to 8v8.

Edited by Khobai, 18 September 2018 - 06:46 AM.

[Acersecomic]

Sneaky Ohgoorchik, on 17 September 2018 - 12:53 AM, said:

Hello, i often see suggestions to do 8v8 quickplay instead of current 12v12. They say: if there will be less mechs, there they will carry the game.

So, how do you think about the different approach - why not make the game 16 v 16.

Would result in more LRM boats and more cancer flying around. No thanks. I'd prefer to see 8v8 considering the game has had low population since beta release.