169 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

and assaults are just support mechs.

so when you loose your support mech (assault) to an assault mech (lights), everything makes sense.

[Horseman]

Add some streaks, a BAP - or ECM - and a TAG and you'll murder the lights.

[Weeny Machine]

LordNothing, on 22 September 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

and assaults are just support mechs.

so when you loose your support mech (assault) to an assault mech (lights), everything makes sense.

This "support" mech can cripple/kill your "assault" mech with one good salvo...in case of a dual heavy gauss it is AT LEAST crippled.

But I agree with you to some extend...LRM assault boats mwaahaa hahahahahaha

[Abaddun]

Get over yourself, it is literally just 1 light that's problem, and that's being dealt with.

[El Bandito]

Literally easier for me to kill an assault mech than a light mech. Lights should always lead the charge.

[Ruar]

This is the result of failing to provide light mechs a non-combat role. When damage and kills are the only things that the game really measures then all mechs have to be able to do damage and get kills.

This is why tank design moved away from the super heavy, gigantic weapons of the late 40s to the mobile, fast firing armor we see on the modern battlefield.

There are a lot of factors which help keep mechs balanced beyond simple things like number of weapons and top speed. Map design, map distance, spotting, how latency effects accuracy, and weapon placement are very big factors in what makes some mechs stronger than others.

I pointed out when the MG change happened that MG boats would end up being OP and it came true. The devs don't really understand the effects of their changes because they don't really understand combat. They just see the data points, which is understandable given their closeness to the coding, without realizing how that data compares in a fight.

So we end up in a situation where a 20 ton mech has to be able to do damage, ends up being stronger than 100 ton mechs in certain situations, and having those situations occur more often because of map design.

[Shifty McSwift]

El Bandito, on 22 September 2018 - 04:24 AM, said:

Literally easier for me to kill an assault mech than a light mech. Lights should always lead the charge.

While true, seeing the face of an assault really as you round a corner should inspire general panic IF they are carrying a meta loadout, while seeing the face of a light when you round a general corner tends to inspire a more stare directly at the thing and try to crush it immediately.

Thing is many assaults aren't carrying what you might be expecting to get slammed with, and as such just make extremely easy targets in many situations.

[Ruar]

Shifty McSwift, on 22 September 2018 - 05:07 AM, said:

While true, seeing the face of an assault really as you round a corner should inspire general panic IF they are carrying a meta loadout, while seeing the face of a light when you round a general corner tends to inspire a more stare directly at the thing and try to crush it immediately.

Thing is many assaults aren't carrying what you might be expecting to get slammed with, and as such just make extremely easy targets in many situations.

I was always more worried about lights rather than assaults. I typically played mediums and heavies with mobility so I could outmaneuver an assault and put myself in a better position.

Lights required their pilot to screw up for me to get effective damage though. I've spent more time shooting at lights than assaults simply because I could focus fire on the assault but I was lucky to get damage to land on a light given latency, hit detection, and terrain blocking.

The power creep for lights was one of the big reasons I left the game. I just got tired of having to deal with a crappy mechanic that should never have been in the game. Lights should have been focused on scouting and support with minimal ability to do damage but the devs don't understand how to build anything besides damage. So lights got more lethal, required more speed to make up for lack of armor, and helped break the game.

[El Bandito]

Shifty McSwift, on 22 September 2018 - 05:07 AM, said:

While true, seeing the face of an assault really as you round a corner should inspire general panic IF they are carrying a meta loadout, while seeing the face of a light when you round a general corner tends to inspire a more stare directly at the thing and try to crush it immediately.

Thing is many assaults aren't carrying what you might be expecting to get slammed with, and as such just make extremely easy targets in many situations.

Depends. Assaults are at least slow in chasing you, once you duck back, and you will know where it gonna be in the next half minute. Lights, once they run past you, will force you to turn around, cause of the constant scare of getting your back blown up.

Which would expose your back to the enemy that are coming in behind the Lights. Which is why Lights are the perfect vanguard for a push.

[Shifty McSwift]

El Bandito, on 22 September 2018 - 05:23 AM, said:

Depends. Assaults are at least slow in chasing you, once you duck back, and you will know where it gonna be in the next half minute. Lights, once they run past you, will force you to turn around, cause of the constant scare of getting your back blown up.

Which would expose your back to the enemy that are coming in behind the Lights. Which is why Lights are the perfect vanguard for a push.

There's a lot to be said for the tankiness of lights so I would totally agree in a number of situations, but just in a general sense, the idea of knowing there is an enemy and having the need to push into them for whatever reason, I would think to lead the charge you send your physically tankiest in his tankiest mode (like a decent speed, deadside assault shoulder charging) to take the initial blast if any, and yes immediately supplemented by everything that can with lights tending to hit the line first after that.

Simply for the reason that I come from the presumption that they will be amazing shots and you dont want to risk that instakill to a light from the various weapons that will cause it for them (if not instadeath, instacripple). But yes in many senses I still agree with what you are getting at.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 22 September 2018 - 05:36 AM.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 22 September 2018 - 04:24 AM, said:

Literally easier for me to kill an assault mech than a light mech. Lights should always lead the charge.

Jenner forever!^(*)

(*) Except from now till the end of the month. It's Heli Season somewhere else.

[cougurt]

Ruar, on 22 September 2018 - 05:15 AM, said:

I was always more worried about lights rather than assaults. I typically played mediums and heavies with mobility so I could outmaneuver an assault and put myself in a better position.

Lights required their pilot to screw up for me to get effective damage though. I've spent more time shooting at lights than assaults simply because I could focus fire on the assault but I was lucky to get damage to land on a light given latency, hit detection, and terrain blocking.

The power creep for lights was one of the big reasons I left the game. I just got tired of having to deal with a crappy mechanic that should never have been in the game. Lights should have been focused on scouting and support with minimal ability to do damage but the devs don't understand how to build anything besides damage. So lights got more lethal, required more speed to make up for lack of armor, and helped break the game.

how are they breaking anything? lights are consistently the least played and lowest performing weight class in the game. there's no reason whatsoever for them to be any less effective in combat than they are.

[Nightbird]

Assaults are always better than lights. For the same pilot anyways. Your should fire yours if you don't like his performance and hire a new one. Oh wait, wrong game.

[Ruar]

cougurt, on 22 September 2018 - 06:06 AM, said:

how are they breaking anything? lights are consistently the least played and lowest performing weight class in the game. there's no reason whatsoever for them to be any less effective in combat than they are.

Not sure why you call them lowest performing. Lights have the highest skill ceiling which is why they are so much of a problem. A good player in a light mech is more effective than a good player in an assault mech. There just aren't as many good light players.

Light mechs have a disproportionate effect on the battle compared to the other three mech classes. That's why I say they break the game.

[cougurt]

Ruar, on 22 September 2018 - 06:11 AM, said:

Not sure why you call them lowest performing. Lights have the highest skill ceiling which is why they are so much of a problem. A good player in a light mech is more effective than a good player in an assault mech. There just aren't as many good light players.

Light mechs have a disproportionate effect on the battle compared to the other three mech classes. That's why I say they break the game.

a good player in a light can potentially have a greater impact than a good player in an assault, but it's usually the other way around. either way, i really don't see the issue with good light players being rewarded for playing a weight class that has both a high skill ceiling and skill floor. that's usually how it works.

[Ruar]

cougurt, on 22 September 2018 - 06:26 AM, said:

a good player in a light can potentially have a greater impact than a good player in an assault, but it's usually the other way around. either way, i really don't see the issue with good light players being rewarded for playing a weight class that has both a high skill ceiling and skill floor. that's usually how it works.

Because it breaks the game when one class has a substantially higher ceiling. Sure, most people won't hit that ceiling but the ones that do make the game absolutely miserable for everyone else.

And honestly, if lights would consistently die to a volley from a heavier mech it wouldn't be a problem. However, the way hit detection works and the length of time required for most weapons to be on a spot in order to damage means lights don't take a lot of damage compared to the other mechs. If they can't fix hit detection and there's good reasons for weapons damage to accumulate slowly then they need to solve the problem some other way.

There is massive potential in the game for lights to be support mechs instead of combat mechs. The devs have consistently been unable to make such a change so we end up the current situation of lower player population and dissatisfaction with combat in general.

In the end players just don't enjoy fighting against light mechs. Because it's frustrating to watch your shots hit home only to have nothing register. Because it's frustrating to be fully engaged with the enemy only to die nearly instantly because a MG light pops up and sprays down your internals. Because it's just not fun to have to alter everything you do in a match to account for light mechs when you can just fight every other mech on the field in an enjoyable way.

I don't think the few light pilots the game has had over it's run are worth the tens of thousands of players who have left because of the way light mechs are able to shape a fight. Especially when light mechs could have been designed differently from the outset and been appealing to players who want to zip around the battlefield and contribute to their team.

[WarGanisM]

It is quite amazing though, at how effective the sheer dps is of 12mgs. So why can't I have an atlas and strap Piranhas on my arms as a weapon system? Would be effective no?

[Shifty McSwift]

Here we go again >.<

I will just say I can see value in both sides of the argument there, good light play should be rewarded, but they should not be rewarded by being the default best at playing with/exploiting game limitations.

That's not me generally say lights are "exploiting" the game or that they are OP or anything, just speaking generally there are most definitely good reasons to have reasonable limitations on those "skill ceilings" when it comes to certain things from a gameplay perspective, as games that run global multiplayer realtime setups have foundational issues that don't need to be exacerbated.

[Ruar]

Shifty McSwift, on 22 September 2018 - 06:50 AM, said:

Here we go again >.<

I will just say I can see value in both sides of the argument there, good light play should be rewarded, but they should not be rewarded by being the default best at playing with/exploiting game limitations.

That's not me generally say lights are "exploiting" the game or that they are OP or anything, just speaking generally there are most definitely good reasons to have reasonable limitations on those "skill ceilings" when it comes to certain things from a gameplay perspective, as games that run global multiplayer realtime setups have foundational issues that don't need to be exacerbated.

Agreed. And given the mechanics of the game's coding I think the only way to lower the ceiling is to convert combat power to support power. Lights needs to be scouts or dedicated to specific tasks, not general combat specialists.

[Shifty McSwift]

Ruar, on 22 September 2018 - 06:53 AM, said:

Agreed. And given the mechanics of the game's coding I think the only way to lower the ceiling is to convert combat power to support power. Lights needs to be scouts or dedicated to specific tasks, not general combat specialists.

I don't agree on taking it that far personally, but also personally I do have issues with lights and mediums having bigger loadout potentials than assaults. Obviously they can't really carry as much but what I am getting at is limitations within loadouts and the lines between classes/class differentials would be something I quantify as important, but they are obviously very blurred by the expansive lore and long developed gameplay (in an overall sense of the "Battletech franchise" or whatever the label is).