133 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

i get much better scores and win/loss in QP than group queue. GQ is a lot more work and requires a lot more effort than QP.

LRMs inflate match score but for W/L they're still inferior, GQ or QP, aside from like 2, maybe 3 maps. 1 of which (alpine) shows up 1 match in 500.

If someone is complaining about getting locks with LRMs now, well, they should try using ballistics and keeping the shots on target.

[Sorbic]

Eisenhorne, on 09 October 2018 - 10:26 PM, said:

getting and staying in position, making sure you aren't being surrounded, leading your target to hit the same point twice, twisting to protect damaged components, making sure you only poke out when the rest of your team does or when the enemy is distracted, managing heat, it all adds up.

But yea, its just point and click, right? Lurms are zero skill, and the argument that other weapons aren't much harder is false.

popping with gauss is harder than PPC snipes but everything you said translates over to piloting a LRM'er as well. The lead thing is a bid different in that you read (unless you're just lazily spamming) when to stop firing as they would have ducked behind cover. That or pausing briefly before they get pass by an obstruction so missiles aren't wasted but start hitting again right after they come out from behind X or Y.

[Eisenhorne]

Sorbic, on 11 October 2018 - 07:15 PM, said:

popping with gauss is harder than PPC snipes but everything you said translates over to piloting a LRM'er as well. The lead thing is a bid different in that you read (unless you're just lazily spamming) when to stop firing as they would have ducked behind cover. That or pausing briefly before they get pass by an obstruction so missiles aren't wasted but start hitting again right after they come out from behind X or Y.

If you're playing a LRM boat properly, it literally doesn't matter, you can just spam missiles forever. My LRM boats have ~4000 missiles minimum, I can spam them the entire match into a wall if I need to. There is no need to conserve them and worry about optimal targets. You literally fire at anything that has even a remote chance of hitting.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Eisenhorne, on 11 October 2018 - 12:32 PM, said:

You cannot seriously find holding a lock on a target while moving to be more difficult than hitting a moving target at range (while moving yourself) with ballistics... Keep in mind, hitting the target anywhere isn't any good, you need to hit the same spot each time. Its not easy. Holding locks really is not hard compared to that.

All of the things I stated originally do apply to LRM boats who expose themselves, but it really irks me when LRM boats do that for a variety of reasons:

1) The players who do this generally have mixed loadouts... LRM's + lasers. These mixed loadouts often do not have enough heatsinks to cool the lasers fully, so by firing a salvo of mediums at 400-500 meters they heat cap themselves quicker, and are unable to keep up a sustained LRM barrage. They also generally only have at most 2 LRM 20's (and that's uncommon, usually like 2 LRM 15's) so they aren't overly threatening LRM mechs to begin with. Their performance is generally mediocre, and generally do quite poorly compared to the pure LRM boats who sit behind the line and fire constantly (because they have the heatsinks to do it, and are not wasting heat on ineffective lasers).

2) The players with mixed loadout LRM boats who can do direct fire will often take up a great trading spot that could be occupied by a mech with a high-alpha loadout. I have often times seen mechs packing LRMs trying to trade from a corner while I'm in my hellbringer, and while I'd like to trade that corner myself (since it's a good firing position), they have it. I'll move on, but I guarantee I'd be doing a hell of a lot more work from that position than they would. This isn't exclusive to guys with LRMs, I'll also see brawlers do this, hiding behind cover, peeking and poking at like 500 meters, being 100% ineffective with their LBX's at that range. That cover would be better used by a mech that can actually fight at those ranges.

3) Worse than 2), if I'm behind a piece of cover, an LRM boat may decide to expose himself to the enemy around the same corner to get a lock, and get in my way. You need to spread out a bit. Admittedly this is a problem with all pilots, not just LRM pilots, but they seem to be more frequent violators of this. If you see someone behind cover, do not get close to them, they need some room to maneuver.

4) Know your role. PGI has come out and said LRM's are a ranged indirect fire DPS weapon. Trying to make them a trading weapon is setting yourself up for failure. It's like trying to make ER Large Lasers a brawling weapon... you're just using it wrong. The LRM's are supposed to be boated, and used at long range. Trying to poke and peek with them is a bad idea.

Holding a lock is mostly fine. It's acquiring that's the issue.

It takes less than a second to line up a shot on a moving target for projectile weapons. You can take longer if you want, but you really don't need to. And once you shoot, you're free to twist or break LOS at your convenience.

With LRMs, not only do you have to put the reticle over the target, but you have to keep it there for over a second to acquire a lock. Contrast this with PPCs or Gauss rifles, which need only need to be on target the instant yoh fire them. You can invest tonnage to make this process a bit faster, but the enemy can also invest to make it take much longer. Then after you fire, you have to keep this lock until your missiles hit, which means someone has to maintain LOS and you can't twist.

And landing projectiles in the same location consistently on a moving at range is an unrealistic goal for the vast majority of people, so I'm not worried about that. I'm happy to hit a laterally moving target at 600m in any location. LRMs don't even get the choice of hit location.

As for your other points:

1. Dedicated LRM boats don't have to sit behind rocks away from the team the whole time. They can move with the team as well. Having a couple of medium lasers for backup doesn't make your LRMs any less effective.

2/3. This shouldn't be a problem with LRMs in the trading phase because they don't need to occupy the best spots. They can sit farther back from cover spots behind the snipers and peek from there. You won't have to worry about friendly fire from LRM boats since they shoot over your head. And they can act as fire support for lights and harassers since they hit without LOS.

4. Stuff what PGI says. They're not experts at this game. Their balancing decisions over the years are ample evidence of this. They need to make LRMs more effective at direct fire.

[Chados]

Kaeb Odellas, on 11 October 2018 - 08:08 PM, said:

Holding a lock is mostly fine. It's acquiring that's the issue.

It takes less than a second to line up a shot on a moving target for projectile weapons. You can take longer if you want, but you really don't need to. And once you shoot, you're free to twist or break LOS at your convenience.

With LRMs, not only do you have to put the reticle over the target, but you have to keep it there for over a second to acquire a lock. Contrast this with PPCs or Gauss rifles, which need only need to be on target the instant yoh fire them. You can invest tonnage to make this process a bit faster, but the enemy can also invest to make it take much longer. Then after you fire, you have to keep this lock until your missiles hit, which means someone has to maintain LOS and you can't twist.

And landing projectiles in the same location consistently on a moving at range is an unrealistic goal for the vast majority of people, so I'm not worried about that. I'm happy to hit a laterally moving target at 600m in any location. LRMs don't even get the choice of hit location.

As for your other points:

1. Dedicated LRM boats don't have to sit behind rocks away from the team the whole time. They can move with the team as well. Having a couple of medium lasers for backup doesn't make your LRMs any less effective.

2/3. This shouldn't be a problem with LRMs in the trading phase because they don't need to occupy the best spots. They can sit farther back from cover spots behind the snipers and peek from there. You won't have to worry about friendly fire from LRM boats since they shoot over your head. And they can act as fire support for lights and harassers since they hit without LOS.

4. Stuff what PGI says. They're not experts at this game. Their balancing decisions over the years are ample evidence of this. They need to make LRMs more effective at direct fire.

Actually, you have to hold your nose on target for about two seconds to get a lock in a no-ECM environment without using a TAG. Otherwise, I agree with your points. Eisenhorne is a boater who prefers hiding behind rocks spudding it up from max range while everyone else is in the fight sharing armor. His style is, unfortunately, the one PGI buffed last go-round, and it is the style that has given LRM play its bottom-of-the-basement reputation. So he’s right when he says that’s how PGI wants LRMs used-in long range spud-a-thons raining from 899 meters away from the rest of the team. The best way to deal with that is 100% radar deprivation and an AMS to take the edge off, then use terrain masking to get inside 180 and sandpaper him to death while he presses the “need assistance” button. If his teammates don’t drop what they’re doing to cover him, he’s dead meat. The only way to die to him is get caught in the open without anything to break LOS. Once you break it, it’ll take him almost two seconds to regain the lock, and if you have ECM (Flea-20s and the Locust Pirate’s Bane are good for this) you can gain another second or two, but you don’t want to risk getting caught in the tail of a salvo because it’ll dish a lot of pain to a light-he’s right about that too. I’ll say it again-I’m pretty spudly myself but the only way a LRM assault has ever killed me is when I’ve been caught more than two seconds from cover with a boater’s direct fire teammates already focusing me. LRM boats are not and never have been scary.

[Eisenhorne]

Chados, on 12 October 2018 - 03:11 AM, said:

Eisenhorne is a boater who prefers hiding behind rocks spudding it up from max range while everyone else is in the fight sharing armor.

Just wanna clarify, I play assault LRM boats in QP because I am a horrible person who thinks it's fun to ruin my opponents games, not because I think it's a playstyle that requires any sort of skill. My w/l rate actually takes a bit of a dive by doing it (It's still like 1.8 in the LRM boat, so its not like I'm not making a positive impact. I'm still way more useful than the average QP pilot, even while spudding it up) compared to my Hellbringer (which has like a 2.5 w/l rate) but if I wanna troll around while watching netflix on the other monitor because you don't really have to put in any effort or skill to lurm, yea an LRM 80 Fafnir is good for a laugh.

Edited by Eisenhorne, 12 October 2018 - 05:56 AM.

[Kubernetes]

With LRMs you don't even have to see the enemy to do damage. Direct fire puts you in peril when you shoot, which is why so much "skill" in this game involves being able to get off shots without getting hosed in return. FFS, you guys are really arguing that "put the reticle in the box while I hide behind a rock" is more difficult than hitting a moving target with gauss. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. Ridiculous.

Edited by Kubernetes, 12 October 2018 - 01:19 PM.

[Lykaon]

Eisenhorne, on 11 October 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

If you're playing a LRM boat properly, it literally doesn't matter, you can just spam missiles forever. My LRM boats have ~4000 missiles minimum, I can spam them the entire match into a wall if I need to. There is no need to conserve them and worry about optimal targets. You literally fire at anything that has even a remote chance of hitting.

The pace of battle may not be as forgiving as your ammo counts. Every volley dished out into terrain and not on a priority target is time you wasted effectively not participating with/for your team.

If you did put in some work then you wouldn't need 4k missiles and could pack some point defense weapons. Sure you can lazy lob all match but are you really that much of an asset to a team doing it that way?


really...15 tons of ammo? sheesh...I run 9 tops and 7-8 as normal.

Edited by Lykaon, 12 October 2018 - 04:15 PM.

[cougurt]

Lykaon, on 12 October 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

The pace of battle may not be as forgiving as your ammo counts. Every volley dished out into terrain and not on a priority target is time you wasted effectively not participating with/for your team.

If you did put in some work then you wouldn't need 4k missiles and could pack some point defense weapons. Sure you can lazy lob all match but are you really that much of an asset to a team doing it that way?

he's probably more of an asset to the team than any of the people complaining about how much LRMs suck.

[Kubernetes]

Lykaon, on 12 October 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

The pace of battle may not be as forgiving as your ammo counts. Every volley dished out into terrain and not on a priority target is time you wasted effectively not participating with/for your team.

If you did put in some work then you wouldn't need 4k missiles and could pack some point defense weapons. Sure you can lazy lob all match but are you really that much of an asset to a team doing it that way?


really...15 tons of ammo? sheesh...I run 9 tops and 7-8 as normal.

Yeah, that explains a lot.

[JediPanther]

Q. Who needs los when your mech can fire lrms from 1115m out with an 750m tag?
A. The first lrm boat to die to any enemy light to find it grids away from the team.

[Sorbic]

Eisenhorne, on 11 October 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

If you're playing a LRM boat properly, it literally doesn't matter, you can just spam missiles forever. My LRM boats have ~4000 missiles minimum, I can spam them the entire match into a wall if I need to. There is no need to conserve them and worry about optimal targets. You literally fire at anything that has even a remote chance of hitting.

That is not playing a LRM boat properly. That is needlessly sacrificing a lot of weight and space just because one can't LRM.

Edited by Sorbic, 12 October 2018 - 08:54 PM.

[Eisenhorne]

Sorbic, on 12 October 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

That is not playing a LRM boat properly. That is needlessly sacrificing a lot of weight and space just because one can't LRM.

Not really. If you get a map where you can do some work, you're doing stupid amounts of work on the enemy. If I'm not sure if i'll hit a target, I'll just chainfire LRM 20's... if I see a juicy target in the open, I just alpha strike it a few times, even an Annihilator or Atlas will be crippled.

Bad LRM assaults (people who bring too little ammo, too few launchers, stay too far in the back, don't move up with the team, get caught by lights, etc) give a bad reputation to the LRM assaults, because they end up doing 200-300 damage total then dying like a punk. A well piloted LRM assault will easily break 1,000 damage, unless on a map where it's useless, maps like Solaris City, or if the team does a strategy that cannot be helped by LRMs, like a tunnel push on Crimson.

In the end, as long as I'm averaging above a 1.5 w/l ratio with a mech in QP, I am making significantly positive impact on my team winning. A 1.0 w/l ratio means you hold your own, and below that it means you're a detriment to your team generally. So, I have a 1.8 w/l ratio in my LRM fafnir, so I can infer that it is overall an asset to my team.

It is kind of troll-ish to the other team, because I know it's no fun to play against, to be just smashed if you step into the open for a second, but it's pretty funny the reactions I get, piloting a LRM Fafnir. Which is why I do it. It's fun. Try it yourself if you don't believe it.

[MischiefSC]

Eisenhorne, on 12 October 2018 - 09:47 PM, said:

Not really. If you get a map where you can do some work, you're doing stupid amounts of work on the enemy. If I'm not sure if i'll hit a target, I'll just chainfire LRM 20's... if I see a juicy target in the open, I just alpha strike it a few times, even an Annihilator or Atlas will be crippled.

Bad LRM assaults (people who bring too little ammo, too few launchers, stay too far in the back, don't move up with the team, get caught by lights, etc) give a bad reputation to the LRM assaults, because they end up doing 200-300 damage total then dying like a punk. A well piloted LRM assault will easily break 1,000 damage, unless on a map where it's useless, maps like Solaris City, or if the team does a strategy that cannot be helped by LRMs, like a tunnel push on Crimson.

In the end, as long as I'm averaging above a 1.5 w/l ratio with a mech in QP, I am making significantly positive impact on my team winning. A 1.0 w/l ratio means you hold your own, and below that it means you're a detriment to your team generally. So, I have a 1.8 w/l ratio in my LRM fafnir, so I can infer that it is overall an asset to my team.

It is kind of troll-ish to the other team, because I know it's no fun to play against, to be just smashed if you step into the open for a second, but it's pretty funny the reactions I get, piloting a LRM Fafnir. Which is why I do it. It's fun. Try it yourself if you don't believe it.

One quibble -

Since the average player is near a 0.8 w/l you need a 1.2 to "break even". Your team in QP is largely comprised of literal dead weight who have to be carried just to cross the finish line.