9 replies to this topic

[Sable Dove]

LRMs are in a bad place. They're arguably too effective when boated, and undeniably garbage in small numbers. Further, unless you're spamming them from behind cover, the tonnage is better spent on other weapons that allow you to twist to spread damage, rather than face directly at enemies 100% of the time.

So here's the idea:
1. Undo the lock-area reduction. This alone makes LRMs virtually useless except for boating at extreme long range. If anything, locks should be easier to make.

2. Once missiles are fired, they maintain their own lock. LRMs are rarely effective in direct-fire roles because they currently require 100% face time until the missiles hit. This way, while players would still have to re-lock, they would be able to fire, then twist to spread damage, and still have their LRMs actually do something.

3. Limit ghost heat to firing 1 of any LRM launcher of any size. This slows down volleys and give AMS a chance to work against LRM boats, while preventing assaults from boating small launchers to make hyper-effective LRM30s.

4. Dramatically increase velocity of smaller launchers, to the extent that a single LRM5 can get at least one missile to hit even with 2-3 AMS shooting the volley. Preferrably, the smaller the launcher, the higher the velocity (call it collision-avoidance for larger volleys).

5. (optional) Reduce minimum range on smaller launchers. Again, the smaller the launcher, the shorter the minimum. Maybe 90m for LRM5s, then 120/150/180m for LRM10/15/20.

6. (optional) Get rid of the AMS nodes in the skill tree. Having AMS have a fixed efficacy makes balancing far easier, which is good, because LRMs have always struggled in terms of balance.

7. (optional) Reduce the screen shake/flash from impacts. With these changes, I'd expect to see a lot more, but smaller volleys of missiles, and the screen shake is already obnoxious enough as it is.

Following these steps, LRM boats are very-slightly nerfed (only by having to space firing out over 0.5s intervals), while use of smaller numbers of missiles for lighter mechs is now at least somewhat effective, because they have higher velocity to get through AMS, lower minimum range, and no longer require constant face-time to use.

[HammerMaster]

It needs A FULL REWORK.
Not another one of these lame band-aids.

[Sable Dove]

HammerMaster, on 29 September 2018 - 03:58 PM, said:

It needs A FULL REWORK.
Not another one of these lame band-aids.

This is a pretty significant change. Not sure how you see it as a band-aid. Just because it would be easier to implement than a complete mechanical overhaul of missile systems doesn't mean it's inherently bad.

[Diablo2mech]

1. No - The mechanic is working to keep from sky firing LRMS to arch way over obstacles. LRMs while useful at long range are far more effective when used at mid range where you can share armor with your team.

2. No - being able to pick your shooting lanes and planning your moves as an LRM mech to minimize incoming damage and exposing with teamates is encouraged by not having missiles automagically unerringly strike targets. This suggested change would also prevent enemy targets from avoiding missiles by breaking line of sight.

3. Yes - lowering the volume of LRM alpha vomit by adding additional ghost heat would increase use of chain fire. This likely would not impact the number of missiles being destroyed per volley but would greatly increase chance of avoidance by opposing players, either by affording time to get under AMS, &/or ECM, or finding that fabulous mountain to eat missiles for them.

4. No - Velocity of LRMS with the skill tree feels like it's in a pretty good place. Slightly improving the starting arc of missiles to shoot over CLOSE cover would make sense.

5. No - LRM deadzone for IS mechs is part of lore and does not detract from the quality of play. LRM mech's are not meant to brawl, and should have secondary weapons to keep harasser mechs honest. By staying at mid range and using indirect fire LRM mechs are close enough to receive rapid support from friendly lances as well.

6. Yes - These nodes really only provide a tangible benefit to multiple AMS mechs.

7. Yes - Slightly reducing the screen flash for both Missiles and Ballistics would be nice.

[Sable Dove]

Diablo2mech, on 03 October 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

1. No - The mechanic is working to keep from sky firing LRMS to arch way over obstacles. LRMs while useful at long range are far more effective when used at mid range where you can share armor with your team.

Why not just make the lock fail immediately if the reticle goes too far from the target? Would keep players from sky-firing while also allowing for better use against moving targets. The tiny lock area just makes it unnecessarily difficult to achieve and maintain locks at anything other than long ranges or against slow or immobile targets.

Diablo2mech, on 03 October 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

2. No - being able to pick your shooting lanes and planning your moves as an LRM mech to minimize incoming damage and exposing with teamates is encouraged by not having missiles automagically unerringly strike targets. This suggested change would also prevent enemy targets from avoiding missiles by breaking line of sight.

I'm just trying to make LRMs useful in direct-fire situations. Because they're not, players really don't utilize any real strategy. They just pile on the LRMs and hide off in a corner to rain down on the enemy. Having to maintain a lock makes LRMs ineffective if the enemy has line-of-sight, and encourages players to boat them, and to not share armour. If you could fire the missile and look away, players would be more likely to use LRMs in conjunction with other weapons, and would be more likely to actually move with their team. As long as the lock needs to be maintained manually, LRMs will be almost exclusively boated, and their pilots will hide behind cover, depriving their team of additional armour, and usually getting themselves killed. Because if you try to fight someone head-to-head, you'll be CT-cored in two seconds because you can't even wiggle to spread damage.

Diablo2mech, on 03 October 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

4. No - Velocity of LRMS with the skill tree feels like it's in a pretty good place. Slightly improving the starting arc of missiles to shoot over CLOSE cover would make sense.

Except without velocity increases, changing the ghost heat limit to 1 would basically make LRM5/10 completely useless, as they would simply be unable to deal damage unless the enemy team has basically no AMS. The increase is only for smaller launchers so that they are usable without having to take 3-6 of them.

Diablo2mech, on 03 October 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

5. No - LRM deadzone for IS mechs is part of lore and does not detract from the quality of play. LRM mech's are not meant to brawl, and should have secondary weapons to keep harasser mechs honest. By staying at mid range and using indirect fire LRM mechs are close enough to receive rapid support from friendly lances as well.

Is the minimum range not just a penalty to hit in the tabletop? Also, relying on game mechanics from games in completely different genres is where most of MWO's problems come from in general. Which is weird because they also frequently diverge from canonized elements when those elements would be better for the game? It's really kind of strange.

The difference provided here is that if a mech has a single LRM5/10, then they shouldn't need to have "backup" weapons, because the LRMs are not their main weapon. There are so many stock mechs that have single LRM5/10 launchers, I find it hard to believe that it's intended for LRMs to be "as many as possible" or "none at all" with no middle ground.

And again, it'd only be the smaller launchers. Really, without this, the velocity increase, or a missile-health increase, small LRMs will continue to be useless unless taken in large numbers. They will always have to be fired from far away, and will always fail to damage if the other team has even a couple AMS. If you're firing anything less than 15 or 20 (IS) LRMs at once, it's nothing but a waste of tonnage in most matches.

What it comes down to, is I think individual weapon systems should be usable on their own, and ideally should be usable with other weapon types. LRMs fail this. LRM5 alone is a waste of tonnage in 95% of matches. LRM10 isn't much better. LRMs synergize with no other weapon because every other weapon requires line of sight, meaning the enemy has line of sight, and the LRM-user is unable to shield components or spread damage. Trying to use LRMs in conjunction with another weapon type is to the detriment of the player attempting it. LRMs only work with LRMs, and they get exponentially better the more you boat. The proposal above is specifically to allow LRMs to synergize with other weapon types (the removal of maintaining lock manually), and to have a more linear power curve, so as to encourage more build variety.


I've yet to see another solution that would have this effect. Every other 'fix' I've seen is either a global buff or a global nerf to LRMs, without taking into account that the power curve of LRMs is not even remotely linear, or the fact that LRMs do not synergize with any other weapon system in the game.

[cyclist1994]

Could someone explain what the hell the problem is?

I don't see why LRMs should need a complete rework.

First of all, you can fully avoid getting too much LRM damage in group matches by using AMS and ECM:
You will have a very hard time playing against a team, were 8/12 players use AMS and 8/12 players use ECM.
Even with lower ratios LRMs is not effective.

Second, LRMs are not effective in early/mid game, were the players are packed and have AMS/ECM coverage.
This is the period were high damage output is crucial to win the match, so carrying lots of LRMs is a waste.

Thrid, because boating LRMs is a waste of direct shot opportunities, and having no LRMs is a waste of having access to lock-on targets, mixing LRMs/noLRM weapon systems rules. Especially late game. This on the other hand means that boating weapons (lasers from hell, 4AC5, 3AC10, 2UAC10, 2LBX20...) is less overpowered.

EDIT:
From all build I have I do by far the highest damage/kills/win_ratio with mixed laser-LRM mixed builds, followed by AC boating. I will start doing statistics on that to prove that to you guys.

EDIT2:
Since 2013 there are always people complaining about LRMs. If you take a closer look, they are usually low skilled players or don't have ECM/AMS.

Edited by cyclist1994, 04 December 2018 - 05:28 PM.

[Blacksheep One]

I think part of the 'problem' is ending up in situations where it seems the other team is going full-missileboat... there's only so much AMS can do. (And the flip side is, if you're LRM-light, AMS makes your missileers feel kind of useless.)

The near-range/direct fire, I believe, is done by C-LRMs.

Personally I'd like to see other options as well for dealing with LRMs. Not every 'mech has (or wants to have) an AMS slot, but even now, today, in the real world, we have things like... chaff. If it'd be possible to have (say) a 5-shot consumable chaff launcher that would distract some LRMs (and possibly leave a .. 30 second? radar shadow,) it could open up some other tactical options.

I do somewhat like option 4, honestly.

[cyclist1994]

Smoke/flares as a consumable would be awesome.

[D V Devnull]

Sable Dove, on 29 September 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

1. Undo the lock-area reduction. This alone makes LRMs virtually useless except for boating at extreme long range. If anything, locks should be easier to make.

2. Once missiles are fired, they maintain their own lock. LRMs are rarely effective in direct-fire roles because they currently require 100% face time until the missiles hit. This way, while players would still have to re-lock, they would be able to fire, then twist to spread damage, and still have their LRMs actually do something.

Hi there, Sable Dove... These first two items are all that's needed to fix LRMs.

I know people (now starting to include even myself....... damnit, I hate how it's happening to me too, but there's no ignoring it), who fight with nerve damage and slowness in cognitive speed. The way LRMs are currently tuned in the game requires fast & smooth reflexes as well as a quick mind to a rather harsh degree. Such is the only reason the Top Players are able to say LRMs are OverPowered right now, as they're able to use them while most others can not. Effectively, PGI tried to Nerf LRMs, only to result in punishing ALL of the lesser players in the game.

EDIT (after I hit the Post Button) :: By the way, and before I forget, there is one other thing that would help fix LRMs a bit, albeit that this is optional. PGI should allow people to choose the tube count on Missile Hardpoints, in order to allow control of how a user's Missiles launch from their Mech. Such would allow for Missile Hardpoints to be better diversified in a manner that allows more easily for users to feel like they can pack alternate mixes which include Streaks, MRMs, and Standard SRMs.

I think I'm going to have to go type up a Feature Suggestion Thread for a new type of equipment. There just doesn't seem to be any way of getting out of it, but it's probably what's needed to fix things now. I won't say what it is here because I would end up hijacking your thread at the moment, so pardon me while I scoot off to clear my head and set up to finally create that Thread.

~Mr. D. V. "Trying to apply too much at once is what put LRMs in hell. Trying lesser adjustments is better." Devnull

Edited by D V Devnull, 05 December 2018 - 11:23 AM.

[Cichol Balor]

LRMs are fine. the punish bad positioning and not working with a team while being easily countered and defeated if you know what you are doing. If anything LRMs are a bit too weak but I feel with how hard they can punish that is okay. I mean FFS a single 30t light can shut down over 250 tons of LRM boat on its own just how overpowered do you think they are?

Edited by Cichol Balor, 31 December 2018 - 11:45 PM.